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RE: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians

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  • Егоров Владимир
    Hi, Francisc! I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae to either Celtic or
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 20, 2003
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      Hi, Francisc!

      <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

      I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
      to either Celtic or German world. The more so
      since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
      By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
      a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
      nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
      were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
      Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
      and he considered them as possible forerunners
      (among others) of the Slavs.



      (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see

      http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm

      <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm> http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)



      Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
      the period when the Goths started their migration
      to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
      the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
      just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
      That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
      if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
      the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.



      The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
      (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
      invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
      applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
      I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
      the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
      those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
      also incidentally.



      Vladimir



      **


      **


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
      Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:19 PM
      To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians


      Hi, Vladimir,

      Thank you very much for your appreciation.

      Most sources that I have read (including such authorities like Herwig
      Wolfram in "Die Germanen") state that the Bastarnae were an East
      Germanic tribe, although I don't know what is the support for such an
      assertion. I have also read that in fact it is not clear whether the
      Bastarnae were Celtic or Germanic. Wolfram considers a mixed
      character of the Bastarnae, interpreting their name as "the
      bastards", in opposition to the Skirians - the "sheer" (Got. skeirs),
      i.e. "pure Germanic".
      The Peucini were indeed a branch of the Bastarnae, who lived
      (according to Ptolemy) in the Danube Delta. Their name seems to be
      derivated from an island in the Danube Delta, called Peuce (although
      I have also read that Peuce was in fact Leuke, the ancient name of
      the Ostrov Zmeiny in the Black Sea).
      Regarding the etymology of "Hrvat", I have read that it is of unknown
      origin. The similarity with "harbada" (pronounced like [harvada])
      arose suddenly in my head, but it could be only a mere coincidence.
      Anyway, I like it too.

      Very interesting your theory about the Slavic migrations triggered by
      the Goths. As far as I have read, a major role in the movement of
      Slavic tribes played the Avars, but it is possible that the Goths
      also played a role, since the Slavic migration begun before the
      arrival of the Avars.
      I don't understand why you state that the South Slavic tribes who
      followed the West Goths joined the Orthodox Church, since the West
      Goths had nothing to do with Orthodoxism (they were Arian, and in
      Spain became Catholics). As far as I know, the only Goths who joined
      the Orthodox Church were the Crimean Goths (but the Gothi Minores,
      who settled south of Danube with Wulfila, although initially Arian,
      must have become Orthodox, parallel with their assimilation by the
      Slavic population).
      Regarding the origin of South Slavs, I have read in a Romanian
      history book that they were rather "Sclavini" than "Antes", but there
      was no argument given for this assertion.

      With best regards,
      Francisc



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    • Francisc Czobor
      Hi, Vladimir! (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis) The Gothi Minores ( Lesser Goths ) represent indeed a branch of the West Goths,
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 22, 2003
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        Hi, Vladimir!
        (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

        The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
        West Goths, but not their mainstream.
        In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
        (in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
        persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
        alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
        settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
        of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
        Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
        Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
        the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
        the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
        because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
        of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
        killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
        the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
        modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
        But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
        They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
        historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
        century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
        neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

        I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
        links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
        neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
        Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
        controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
        sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
        from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
        be assigned to any known language.
        However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
        from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
        a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
        Slavic language continuum.

        Francisc


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
        > Hi, Francisc!
        >
        > <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
        com:office:office" />
        >
        > I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
        > to either Celtic or German world. The more so
        > since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
        > By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
        > a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
        > nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
        > were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
        > Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
        > and he considered them as possible forerunners
        > (among others) of the Slavs.
        >
        >
        >
        > (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
        >
        > http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
        >
        > <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm>
        http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
        >
        >
        >
        > Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
        > the period when the Goths started their migration
        > to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
        > the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
        > just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
        > That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
        > if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
        > the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
        >
        >
        >
        > The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
        > (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
        > invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
        > applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
        > I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
        > the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
        > those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
        > also incidentally.
        >
        >
        >
        > Vladimir
        >
      • Tore Gannholm
        Hi! I have part of Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe Mark B. Schukin on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm Tore
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 22, 2003
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          Hi!

          I have part of

          Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe
          Mark B. Schukin

          on

          http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm

          Tore


          >Hi, Vladimir!
          >(BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)
          >
          >The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
          >West Goths, but not their mainstream.
          >In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
          >(in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
          >persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
          >alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
          >settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
          >of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
          >Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
          >Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
          >the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
          >the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
          >because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
          >of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
          >killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
          >the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
          >modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
          >But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
          >They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
          >historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
          >century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
          >neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).
          >
          >I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
          >links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
          >neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
          >Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
          >controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
          >sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
          >from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
          >be assigned to any known language.
          >However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
          >from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
          >a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
          >Slavic language continuum.
          >
          >Francisc
          >
          >
          >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
          >> Hi, Francisc!
          >>
          >> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
          >com:office:office" />
          >>
          >> I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
          >> to either Celtic or German world. The more so
          >> since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
          >> By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
          >> a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
          >> nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
          >> were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
          >> Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
          >> and he considered them as possible forerunners
          >> (among others) of the Slavs.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
          >>
          >> http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
          >>
          >> <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm>
          >http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
          >> the period when the Goths started their migration
          >> to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
          >> the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
          >> just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
          >> That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
          >> if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
          >> the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
          >> (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
          >> invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
          >> applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
          > > I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
          >> the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
          >> those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
          >> also incidentally.
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> Vladimir
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
          >email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
          >
          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


          --

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Егоров Владимир
          Hi Francisc! Thank you for your exhaustive comments making the matter more precise
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 24, 2003
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            Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



            Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
            the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
            experienced in the legal Gothic history,
            and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
            maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
            But I still can not get rid from a feeling
            that the contraposition of the East Goths
            (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
            be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
            'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
            Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
            Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
            keep looking for proper arguments.



            In this connection, could you help me in
            a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
            the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
            of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
            from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
            itself, would have far-reaching consequences.



            Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
            conventional interpretation based on transliterating
            'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
            Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
            'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
            and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
            and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
            Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').



            Vladimir



            **********







            -----Original Message-----
            From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
            Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:58 PM
            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians


            Hi, Vladimir!
            (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

            The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
            West Goths, but not their mainstream.
            In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
            (in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
            persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
            alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
            settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
            of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
            Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
            Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
            the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
            the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
            because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
            of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
            killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
            the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
            modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
            But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
            They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
            historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
            century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
            neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

            I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
            links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
            neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
            Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
            controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
            sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
            from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
            be assigned to any known language.
            However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
            from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
            a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
            Slavic language continuum.

            Francisc





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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Francisc Czobor
            Dear Vladimir, Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the opposition plain dwellers / wood dwellers , exactly like Polyane/Drevlyane .
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 25, 2003
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              Dear Vladimir,

              Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the
              opposition "plain dwellers / wood dwellers", exactly
              like "Polyane/Drevlyane". About the opposition "Serbs/Croats"
              (Srb/Hrvat), you don't have to forget that these are old Slavic
              tribal names, found also elsewhere in the Slavic world ("Serbs" are
              also the Sorabs, or Lusacian Serbs, still living in NE Germany,
              while "Croats" were also the White Croats, who lived approx. where is
              now the Transcarpatian Region [Zakarpatskaya Oblast'] of Ukraine).
              The Illyric languages represent a separate branch of Indo-European.
              In the past, some scholars regarded them as closely related to
              Thracian, speaking about a "Thraco-Illyric" language group, but today
              they are regarded rather as different branches of Indo-European, the
              Thracian languages (Geto-Daco-Moesian, Southern Thracian, and Mysian)
              being "satem" languages, most closely related probably to Phrygian,
              while the Illyric languages where apparently rather "centum"
              languages.
              Regarding the origin of the name "Tervingi", the most accepted
              interpretation (found also in Köbler's comprehensive "Gotisches
              Wörterbuch") is "woodlanders, inabitants of the woods", the root terv-
              being considered a variant of the Gothic word "triu" = "wood, stick"
              (cognate, for instance, with the English word "tree" and, on Indo-
              European level, for instance with the Greek "drus" = "oak", and with
              Russian "derevo").
              I tried to gothicize your first name as "Waldamer(ei)s", because once
              I have read that "Vladimir" comes from "Valdemar", and the last would
              be in Gothic "Waldamer(ei)s". The form "Lodomer" for "Vladimir" as a
              place name is found indeed in the Hungarian chronicle "Gesta
              Hungarorum", with anonymous author (called "Anonymus"), of the
              11/12th century, but describing events of the 9/10th century. I
              thought that "Lodomer" is an Old Hungarian deformation of "Vladimir"
              (probably in the variant "Volodimir/Wlodimir") rather than the
              correct form for "Vladimir". This supposition is supported also by
              the fact that "Vladimir" became in Lithuanian "Valdimieras", with the
              significance "ruler, king" (exactly like the Latin proper name Caesar
              becoming "kaisar" in Gothic, "Kaiser" in German, and "tzar" in
              Slavic, all meaning "emperor", or the Frankish proper name Karl
              becoming korol'/krol/kral' in Slavic languages, meaning "king"). But
              in case you're right, than the Gothic form of "Vladimir" would
              be "Hlothamer(ei)s".

              Francisc


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
              > Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
              com:office:office" />
              >
              >
              >
              > Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
              > the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
              > experienced in the legal Gothic history,
              > and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
              > maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
              > But I still can not get rid from a feeling
              > that the contraposition of the East Goths
              > (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
              > be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
              > 'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
              > Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
              > Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
              > keep looking for proper arguments.
              >
              >
              >
              > In this connection, could you help me in
              > a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
              > the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
              > of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
              > from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
              > itself, would have far-reaching consequences.
              >
              >
              >
              > Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
              > conventional interpretation based on transliterating
              > 'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
              > Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
              > 'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
              > and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
              > and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
              > Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').
              >
              >
              >
              > Vladimir
              >
              >
              >
              > **********
              >
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