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Carpathians and Croatians

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  • Francisc Czobor
    Hails allaim! I believe I ve found an indication about how called the Goths the Carpathian Mountains, beside which they settled for some centuries. According
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 18, 2003
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      Hails allaim!

      I believe I've found an indication about how called the Goths the
      Carpathian Mountains, beside which they settled for some centuries.
      According to Felix Genzmer, who translated in German and commented
      the Edda ("Die Edda - Götterdichtung, Spruchweiseiten und
      Heldengesänge der Germanen", Eugen Diederichs Verlag, München, 1981,
      1997), in a Nordic fragment connected to the Hlöðskviða
      [Hloedhskvidha], "The Song of Hlödur", entitled in German "Das
      Hunnenschlachtlied" ("The Song of the Battle with the Huns"),
      Heidrek, the father of Hlödur, was killed at the Harvada Mountains,
      which are, according to Genzmer, the Carpathians. It is very
      interesting that this Old Norse denomination shows the first Germanic
      sound shift.
      The Song of Hlödur being obviously of Gothic origin (it tells about a
      battle between Goths and Huns), it is most probable that the Norse
      skalds took also the "Harvada" name (directly or indirectly) from the
      Goths. It is imaginable that the name of the Carpathian Mountains
      (called by Ptolemy "Carpates Mons", name which could be connected
      with the Dacian tribe of Carpi, who lived in the NE of today's
      Romania, or with Karpis, the ancient name of the Drava river, an
      affluent of the Danube, or with a Thracian word reflected in the
      Albanian "karpë" and the Bulgarian dialectal "karpa", both
      meaning "stone, rock") suffered the first Germanic sound shift:
      *karpat- > Gothic *harbada- or *harbatha- (with -b- pronounced like a
      bilabial -v-) > Old Norse Harvada. It is also possible that the sound
      shift occurred not in Gothic, but in some other East Germanic
      language, spoken by a Germanic tribe who preceded the Goths in that
      region (like the Bastarnae, the Peucini, or the Skirians), and the
      Goths took the word already sound-shifted from them (BTW: in Tabula
      Peutingeriana, a Roman road map of the 3rd century C.E., the
      Carpathians are called "Alpes Bastarnice").
      Moreover, this presumable Gothic *harbada-/*harbatha- could be the
      source of the Old Slavic tribal name "Hrvat", whence the name of the
      Croatians (in the Serbo-Croatian language, the word for "Croatian"
      is "Hrvat"). Beside today's Croatians (whose present location is not
      quite near the Carpatians), there was in early Middle Ages another
      Slavic tribe, the so-called "White Croatians", who lived in the
      vicinity of the Northern Carpathians (in the SW of today's Ukraine).
      What do you think, sounds all this plausible?

      Francisc
    • Егоров Владимир
      Hi Francisc! Except for some questionable notes, e.g. ethnicity of the Bastarnae and Peucini (the latter were a branch of the former?), which probably had the
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 18, 2003
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        Hi Francisc!

        Except for some questionable notes, e.g. ethnicity
        of the Bastarnae and Peucini (the latter were a branch
        of the former?), which probably had the Celtic origin
        rather than German one and, accordingly, scarcely spoke
        an East German language, your basic conjectures look
        very attractive. I like your etymology of the Croats
        from the Gothic *harbada.



        Moreover, I believe that the East Goths having been
        dislodged westward by the Huns involved some Slavic
        tribes from the Carpathian Mountains into their long
        drift to Apennines. The Gothic migration might have
        separated the South Slavic tribes (conceivably
        the 'Antes') and initiate the further distinction
        between the Croats and Serbs. Note that both peoples
        speak the same language up to nowadays. But the Slavic
        tribes, which had migrated with the East Goths, entered
        the Roman influence area, accepted the Roman Catholicism
        and became Croats while other South Slavic tribes,
        which had followed the West Goths, remained in
        the Byzantine influence area, joined the Orthodox Church
        and became Serbs.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />


        Vladimir




        -----Original Message-----
        From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
        Sent: Monday, August 18, 2003 2:04 PM
        To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [gothic-l] Carpathians and Croatians



        Hails allaim!

        I believe I've found an indication about how called the Goths the
        Carpathian Mountains, beside which they settled for some centuries.
        According to Felix Genzmer, who translated in German and commented
        the Edda ("Die Edda - G�tterdichtung, Spruchweiseiten und
        Heldenges�nge der Germanen", Eugen Diederichs Verlag, M�nchen, 1981,
        1997), in a Nordic fragment connected to the Hl��skvi�a
        [Hloedhskvidha], "The Song of Hl�dur", entitled in German "Das
        Hunnenschlachtlied" ("The Song of the Battle with the Huns"),
        Heidrek, the father of Hl�dur, was killed at the Harvada Mountains,
        which are, according to Genzmer, the Carpathians. It is very
        interesting that this Old Norse denomination shows the first Germanic
        sound shift.
        The Song of Hl�dur being obviously of Gothic origin (it tells about a
        battle between Goths and Huns), it is most probable that the Norse
        skalds took also the "Harvada" name (directly or indirectly) from the
        Goths. It is imaginable that the name of the Carpathian Mountains
        (called by Ptolemy "Carpates Mons", name which could be connected
        with the Dacian tribe of Carpi, who lived in the NE of today's
        Romania, or with Karpis, the ancient name of the Drava river, an
        affluent of the Danube, or with a Thracian word reflected in the
        Albanian "karp�" and the Bulgarian dialectal "karpa", both
        meaning "stone, rock") suffered the first Germanic sound shift:
        *karpat- > Gothic *harbada- or *harbatha- (with -b- pronounced like a
        bilabial -v-) > Old Norse Harvada. It is also possible that the sound
        shift occurred not in Gothic, but in some other East Germanic
        language, spoken by a Germanic tribe who preceded the Goths in that
        region (like the Bastarnae, the Peucini, or the Skirians), and the
        Goths took the word already sound-shifted from them (BTW: in Tabula
        Peutingeriana, a Roman road map of the 3rd century C.E., the
        Carpathians are called "Alpes Bastarnice").
        Moreover, this presumable Gothic *harbada-/*harbatha- could be the
        source of the Old Slavic tribal name "Hrvat", whence the name of the
        Croatians (in the Serbo-Croatian language, the word for "Croatian"
        is "Hrvat"). Beside today's Croatians (whose present location is not
        quite near the Carpatians), there was in early Middle Ages another
        Slavic tribe, the so-called "White Croatians", who lived in the
        vicinity of the Northern Carpathians (in the SW of today's Ukraine).
        What do you think, sounds all this plausible?

        Francisc






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      • Francisc Czobor
        Hi, Vladimir, Thank you very much for your appreciation. ... Most sources that I have read (including such authorities like Herwig Wolfram in Die Germanen )
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 19, 2003
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          Hi, Vladimir,

          Thank you very much for your appreciation.

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
          > Hi Francisc!
          >
          > Except for some questionable notes, e.g. ethnicity
          > of the Bastarnae and Peucini (the latter were a branch
          > of the former?), which probably had the Celtic origin
          > rather than German one and, accordingly, scarcely spoke
          > an East German language, your basic conjectures look
          > very attractive. I like your etymology of the Croats
          > from the Gothic *harbada.
          >

          Most sources that I have read (including such authorities like Herwig
          Wolfram in "Die Germanen") state that the Bastarnae were an East
          Germanic tribe, although I don't know what is the support for such an
          assertion. I have also read that in fact it is not clear whether the
          Bastarnae were Celtic or Germanic. Wolfram considers a mixed
          character of the Bastarnae, interpreting their name as "the
          bastards", in opposition to the Skirians - the "sheer" (Got. skeirs),
          i.e. "pure Germanic".
          The Peucini were indeed a branch of the Bastarnae, who lived
          (according to Ptolemy) in the Danube Delta. Their name seems to be
          derivated from an island in the Danube Delta, called Peuce (although
          I have also read that Peuce was in fact Leuke, the ancient name of
          the Ostrov Zmeiny in the Black Sea).
          Regarding the etymology of "Hrvat", I have read that it is of unknown
          origin. The similarity with "harbada" (pronounced like [harvada])
          arose suddenly in my head, but it could be only a mere coincidence.
          Anyway, I like it too.

          >
          > Moreover, I believe that the East Goths having been
          > dislodged westward by the Huns involved some Slavic
          > tribes from the Carpathian Mountains into their long
          > drift to Apennines. The Gothic migration might have
          > separated the South Slavic tribes (conceivably
          > the 'Antes') and initiate the further distinction
          > between the Croats and Serbs. Note that both peoples
          > speak the same language up to nowadays. But the Slavic
          > tribes, which had migrated with the East Goths, entered
          > the Roman influence area, accepted the Roman Catholicism
          > and became Croats while other South Slavic tribes,
          > which had followed the West Goths, remained in
          > the Byzantine influence area, joined the Orthodox Church
          > and became Serbs.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-
          microsoft-com:office:office" />
          >
          >
          > Vladimir
          >

          Very interesting your theory about the Slavic migrations triggered by
          the Goths. As far as I have read, a major role in the movement of
          Slavic tribes played the Avars, but it is possible that the Goths
          also played a role, since the Slavic migration begun before the
          arrival of the Avars.
          I don't understand why you state that the South Slavic tribes who
          followed the West Goths joined the Orthodox Church, since the West
          Goths had nothing to do with Orthodoxism (they were Arian, and in
          Spain became Catholics). As far as I know, the only Goths who joined
          the Orthodox Church were the Crimean Goths (but the Gothi Minores,
          who settled south of Danube with Wulfila, although initially Arian,
          must have become Orthodox, parallel with their assimilation by the
          Slavic population).
          Regarding the origin of South Slavs, I have read in a Romanian
          history book that they were rather "Sclavini" than "Antes", but there
          was no argument given for this assertion.

          With best regards,
          Francisc
        • Егоров Владимир
          Hi, Francisc! I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae to either Celtic or
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 20, 2003
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            Hi, Francisc!

            <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

            I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
            to either Celtic or German world. The more so
            since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
            By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
            a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
            nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
            were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
            Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
            and he considered them as possible forerunners
            (among others) of the Slavs.



            (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see

            http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm

            <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm> http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)



            Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
            the period when the Goths started their migration
            to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
            the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
            just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
            That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
            if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
            the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.



            The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
            (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
            invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
            applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
            I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
            the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
            those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
            also incidentally.



            Vladimir



            **


            **


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
            Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:19 PM
            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians


            Hi, Vladimir,

            Thank you very much for your appreciation.

            Most sources that I have read (including such authorities like Herwig
            Wolfram in "Die Germanen") state that the Bastarnae were an East
            Germanic tribe, although I don't know what is the support for such an
            assertion. I have also read that in fact it is not clear whether the
            Bastarnae were Celtic or Germanic. Wolfram considers a mixed
            character of the Bastarnae, interpreting their name as "the
            bastards", in opposition to the Skirians - the "sheer" (Got. skeirs),
            i.e. "pure Germanic".
            The Peucini were indeed a branch of the Bastarnae, who lived
            (according to Ptolemy) in the Danube Delta. Their name seems to be
            derivated from an island in the Danube Delta, called Peuce (although
            I have also read that Peuce was in fact Leuke, the ancient name of
            the Ostrov Zmeiny in the Black Sea).
            Regarding the etymology of "Hrvat", I have read that it is of unknown
            origin. The similarity with "harbada" (pronounced like [harvada])
            arose suddenly in my head, but it could be only a mere coincidence.
            Anyway, I like it too.

            Very interesting your theory about the Slavic migrations triggered by
            the Goths. As far as I have read, a major role in the movement of
            Slavic tribes played the Avars, but it is possible that the Goths
            also played a role, since the Slavic migration begun before the
            arrival of the Avars.
            I don't understand why you state that the South Slavic tribes who
            followed the West Goths joined the Orthodox Church, since the West
            Goths had nothing to do with Orthodoxism (they were Arian, and in
            Spain became Catholics). As far as I know, the only Goths who joined
            the Orthodox Church were the Crimean Goths (but the Gothi Minores,
            who settled south of Danube with Wulfila, although initially Arian,
            must have become Orthodox, parallel with their assimilation by the
            Slavic population).
            Regarding the origin of South Slavs, I have read in a Romanian
            history book that they were rather "Sclavini" than "Antes", but there
            was no argument given for this assertion.

            With best regards,
            Francisc



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          • Francisc Czobor
            Hi, Vladimir! (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis) The Gothi Minores ( Lesser Goths ) represent indeed a branch of the West Goths,
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 22, 2003
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              Hi, Vladimir!
              (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

              The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
              West Goths, but not their mainstream.
              In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
              (in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
              persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
              alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
              settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
              of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
              Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
              Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
              the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
              the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
              because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
              of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
              killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
              the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
              modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
              But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
              They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
              historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
              century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
              neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

              I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
              links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
              neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
              Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
              controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
              sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
              from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
              be assigned to any known language.
              However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
              from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
              a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
              Slavic language continuum.

              Francisc


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
              > Hi, Francisc!
              >
              > <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
              com:office:office" />
              >
              > I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
              > to either Celtic or German world. The more so
              > since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
              > By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
              > a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
              > nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
              > were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
              > Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
              > and he considered them as possible forerunners
              > (among others) of the Slavs.
              >
              >
              >
              > (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
              >
              > http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
              >
              > <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm>
              http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
              >
              >
              >
              > Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
              > the period when the Goths started their migration
              > to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
              > the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
              > just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
              > That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
              > if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
              > the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
              >
              >
              >
              > The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
              > (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
              > invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
              > applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
              > I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
              > the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
              > those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
              > also incidentally.
              >
              >
              >
              > Vladimir
              >
            • Tore Gannholm
              Hi! I have part of Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe Mark B. Schukin on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm Tore
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 22, 2003
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                Hi!

                I have part of

                Rome and the Barbarians in Central and Eastern Europe
                Mark B. Schukin

                on

                http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/shchukin/default.htm

                Tore


                >Hi, Vladimir!
                >(BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)
                >
                >The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
                >West Goths, but not their mainstream.
                >In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
                >(in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
                >persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
                >alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
                >settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
                >of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
                >Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
                >Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
                >the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
                >the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
                >because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
                >of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
                >killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
                >the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
                >modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
                >But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
                >They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
                >historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
                >century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
                >neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).
                >
                >I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
                >links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
                >neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
                >Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
                >controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
                >sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
                >from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
                >be assigned to any known language.
                >However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
                >from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
                >a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
                >Slavic language continuum.
                >
                >Francisc
                >
                >
                >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
                >> Hi, Francisc!
                >>
                >> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
                >com:office:office" />
                >>
                >> I do not insist on belonging of the Bastarnae
                >> to either Celtic or German world. The more so
                >> since it is not very important for your hypothesis.
                >> By the way, Shchukin considered the Bastarnae as
                >> a separate ethnicity belonging to neither Celtics
                >> nor Germans. According to Shchukin, the Bastarnae
                >> were creators of the Zarubinetskaya and
                >> Poyaneshty-Lukashevka archaeological cultures,
                >> and he considered them as possible forerunners
                >> (among others) of the Slavs.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> (If yuo read Russian and find this of interest, see
                >>
                >> http://stratum.ant.md/05_99/articles/Sciukin/sciukin00.htm
                >>
                >> <http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm>
                >http://www.nestor.md/Russian/Sciukin.htm)
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Saying about the Slavs under the West Goths I meant
                >> the period when the Goths started their migration
                >> to the West, i.e. the end of the 4th c., and when
                >> the Roman emperor Valentus granted to the West Goths
                >> just territories somewhere near contemporaneous Serbia.
                >> That is, the West Goths, I have said about, were,
                >> if you do not mind, your Gothi Minores. Of course,
                >> the Slavs did not accompany the Goths to Spain.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> The term 'Sclavini' appeared in the middle of the 6th c.
                >> (Procopius, Jordanes) for the Slavs along Danube that
                >> invaded the Roman Empire. The term 'Antes' was usually
                >> applied to the Slavic and Alanic tribes along the Black Sea.
                > > I merely supposed that if under the Hunnish pressure
                >> the West Goths brought some Slavic tribes to Danube,
                >> those tribes must have been 'Antes'. But all this is
                >> also incidentally.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Vladimir
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                >email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                >
                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


                --

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Егоров Владимир
                Hi Francisc! Thank you for your exhaustive comments making the matter more precise
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 24, 2003
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                  Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



                  Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
                  the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
                  experienced in the legal Gothic history,
                  and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
                  maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
                  But I still can not get rid from a feeling
                  that the contraposition of the East Goths
                  (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
                  be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
                  'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
                  Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
                  Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
                  keep looking for proper arguments.



                  In this connection, could you help me in
                  a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
                  the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
                  of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
                  from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
                  itself, would have far-reaching consequences.



                  Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
                  conventional interpretation based on transliterating
                  'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
                  Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
                  'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
                  and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
                  and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
                  Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').



                  Vladimir



                  **********







                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Francisc Czobor [mailto:fericzobor@...]
                  Sent: Friday, August 22, 2003 3:58 PM
                  To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Carpathians and Croatians


                  Hi, Vladimir!
                  (BTW, in Gothic your name would be *Waldamers or *Waldamereis)

                  The Gothi Minores ("Lesser Goths") represent indeed a branch of the
                  West Goths, but not their mainstream.
                  In the year 348 A.D., when the West Goths still lived north of Danube
                  (in Dacia), bishop Wulfila had to flee south of Danube because of the
                  persecutions from the West Gothic leader Athanaric. He didn't leave
                  alone, but was followed by a number of Christianized West Goths who
                  settled in the Roman province Moesia Inferior (near Nicopolis), in NE
                  of today's Bulgaria. The mainstream of the West Goths crossed the
                  Danube in 376 A.D. after their defeat by the Huns and were allowed by
                  Emperor Valens to settle in the Province Thracia (which means rather
                  the southern part of today's Bulgaria than Serbia). In the next year
                  the Thracian West Goths rebelled against the Roman administration
                  because of bad treatment and destroyed the Roman army in the battle
                  of Adrianopolis (August 9, 378), were the Emperor Valens himself was
                  killed. Later they moved westward, first (already under Alaric) in
                  the Province Illyricum (which indeed is superposed partially with
                  modern Serbia), then in Italy, then South Gaul, and finally Spain.
                  But all these events didn't regard the more peaceful Gothi Minores.
                  They remained in Moesia Inferior and, according to the German
                  historian Walahfrid Strabo, Gothic was still used in his time (9th
                  century) in some churches in the region of Lower Danube, in the
                  neighborhood of Tomi (now Constanta in Dobrudja, Romania).

                  I can read Russian and have read the articles of Shchukin in the
                  links provided by you. Indeed, he believes that the Bastarnae were
                  neither Celtic nor Germanic, nor something between Celtic and
                  Germanic, but possibly an Indo-European branch for itself: "The
                  controversy on the ethnic character of the Bastarnae doesn't make
                  sense. The Bastarnae were Bastarnic". Interestingly, he mentions that
                  from the 5 known Bastarnic words, two are Germanic, and three cannot
                  be assigned to any known language.
                  However, Shchukin doesn't consider that the Slavic languages descend
                  from Bastarnic (whatever this could be), but that Bastarnic acted as
                  a substratum for Slavic, helping its individualization from the Balto-
                  Slavic language continuum.

                  Francisc





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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Francisc Czobor
                  Dear Vladimir, Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the opposition plain dwellers / wood dwellers , exactly like Polyane/Drevlyane .
                  Message 8 of 8 , Aug 25, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Vladimir,

                    Very interesting indeed, because Greutungi/Tervingi represent the
                    opposition "plain dwellers / wood dwellers", exactly
                    like "Polyane/Drevlyane". About the opposition "Serbs/Croats"
                    (Srb/Hrvat), you don't have to forget that these are old Slavic
                    tribal names, found also elsewhere in the Slavic world ("Serbs" are
                    also the Sorabs, or Lusacian Serbs, still living in NE Germany,
                    while "Croats" were also the White Croats, who lived approx. where is
                    now the Transcarpatian Region [Zakarpatskaya Oblast'] of Ukraine).
                    The Illyric languages represent a separate branch of Indo-European.
                    In the past, some scholars regarded them as closely related to
                    Thracian, speaking about a "Thraco-Illyric" language group, but today
                    they are regarded rather as different branches of Indo-European, the
                    Thracian languages (Geto-Daco-Moesian, Southern Thracian, and Mysian)
                    being "satem" languages, most closely related probably to Phrygian,
                    while the Illyric languages where apparently rather "centum"
                    languages.
                    Regarding the origin of the name "Tervingi", the most accepted
                    interpretation (found also in Köbler's comprehensive "Gotisches
                    Wörterbuch") is "woodlanders, inabitants of the woods", the root terv-
                    being considered a variant of the Gothic word "triu" = "wood, stick"
                    (cognate, for instance, with the English word "tree" and, on Indo-
                    European level, for instance with the Greek "drus" = "oak", and with
                    Russian "derevo").
                    I tried to gothicize your first name as "Waldamer(ei)s", because once
                    I have read that "Vladimir" comes from "Valdemar", and the last would
                    be in Gothic "Waldamer(ei)s". The form "Lodomer" for "Vladimir" as a
                    place name is found indeed in the Hungarian chronicle "Gesta
                    Hungarorum", with anonymous author (called "Anonymus"), of the
                    11/12th century, but describing events of the 9/10th century. I
                    thought that "Lodomer" is an Old Hungarian deformation of "Vladimir"
                    (probably in the variant "Volodimir/Wlodimir") rather than the
                    correct form for "Vladimir". This supposition is supported also by
                    the fact that "Vladimir" became in Lithuanian "Valdimieras", with the
                    significance "ruler, king" (exactly like the Latin proper name Caesar
                    becoming "kaisar" in Gothic, "Kaiser" in German, and "tzar" in
                    Slavic, all meaning "emperor", or the Frankish proper name Karl
                    becoming korol'/krol/kral' in Slavic languages, meaning "king"). But
                    in case you're right, than the Gothic form of "Vladimir" would
                    be "Hlothamer(ei)s".

                    Francisc


                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
                    > Hi Francisc!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
                    com:office:office" />
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you for your exhaustive comments making
                    > the matter more precise to me. I'm not very
                    > experienced in the legal Gothic history,
                    > and my suppositions are more intuitive (and
                    > maybe naive) than scientific and well grounded.
                    > But I still can not get rid from a feeling
                    > that the contraposition of the East Goths
                    > (Greutungi) and West Goths (Tervingi) might
                    > be extended not only to the Slavic tribes
                    > 'Polyane'/'Drevlyane' of the Russian Original
                    > Chronicle but to the Serbs/Croats as well.
                    > Perhaps I am wrong but I do not give up and
                    > keep looking for proper arguments.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In this connection, could you help me in
                    > a particular problem regarding Illyric languages,
                    > the Geto-Dacian language specifically. Derivation
                    > of the ethnonym 'Terving' (i.e. the stem 'terv')
                    > from the Geto-Dacian language, interesting by
                    > itself, would have far-reaching consequences.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Regarding my first name and not rejecting your
                    > conventional interpretation based on transliterating
                    > 'Vladi-' as 'Walda-', I should note that some
                    > Hungarian and old Greek chronicles transliterated
                    > 'Vladimir' as 'Lodomer'/'Lodimer'. The Hungarians
                    > and Greeks were closer to Kiev of the 10/11th centuries,
                    > and trusting to them we have to derive 'Vlad' from old
                    > Germanic 'Hloed(r)' (later German 'Lotar').
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Vladimir
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > **********
                    >
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