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Re: [gothic-l] Gothic Dance?

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  • Elena Alcamesi
    The Byzantine emperor Constantine VII refers in his Book of Ceremonies to a Gothic Dance performed by members of his Varangian guard, who took part wearing
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
      The Byzantine emperor Constantine VII refers in his Book of Ceremonies to a
      "Gothic Dance" performed by members of his Varangian guard, who took part
      wearing animal skins and masks. You can read a description in H.P.
      Ellis-Davidson, Pagan Scandinavia, New York: Frederick A. Praeger. 1967, p.
      100.
      Ellis-Davidson suggests that this type of costumed dance is also seen in
      figures from Swedish helmet plates, scabbard ornaments, and bracteates which
      depict human figures with the heads of bears or wolves, dressed in animal
      skins but having human hands and feet. These figures often carry spears or
      swords, and are depicted as running or dancing.


      > Hails,
      > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
      > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
      > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
      > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
      > here is a discription of the dance itself.
      >
      > Thank you,
      > Valulfr
      >
      >
      >
      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
      to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • Terje Ellefsen
      Hails Yes, this is the Varangian guard. They dressed up in full war gear and ran around in a circle inside the palace. I think they did this every time an
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
        Hails

        Yes, this is the Varangian guard. They dressed up in full war gear and ran
        around in a circle inside the palace. I think they did this every time an
        emperor died. They were allowed to pillage the emperors hoard. I could be
        mixing two things here though.

        Terje


        >From: "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@...>
        >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic Dance?
        >Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:09:05 -0000
        >
        >Hails,
        > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
        >the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
        >Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
        >mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
        >here is a discription of the dance itself.
        >
        >Thank you,
        >Valulfr
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
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      • Ingemar Nordgren
        ... Hi Valulfr! The description says that they took each others hands and danced/ran round in a circle while crying jul, jul and seeming very happy and
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...> wrote:
          > Hails,
          > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
          > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
          > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
          > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
          > here is a discription of the dance itself.
          >
          > Thank you,
          > Valulfr

          Hi Valulfr!

          The description says that they took each others hands and danced/ran
          round in a circle while crying "jul, jul" and seeming very happy and
          merry. It is quite evident the tradition with ringdances on Yule/Jul
          is very old. They did indeed belong to the emperors guard and they
          were decidedly Northmen/Scandinavians.

          Best
          Ingemar
        • Le Bateman
          Does anyone know if the Goths had a word similar to the OE Hlaford another of their words for Lord, or Master. Le ... From: Ingemar Nordgren
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
            Does anyone know if the Goths had a word similar to the OE Hlaford another
            of their words for Lord, or Master.
            Le
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...>
            To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 7:03 PM
            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic Dance?


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...> wrote:
            > Hails,
            > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
            > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
            > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
            > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
            > here is a discription of the dance itself.
            >
            > Thank you,
            > Valulfr

            Hi Valulfr!

            The description says that they took each others hands and danced/ran
            round in a circle while crying "jul, jul" and seeming very happy and
            merry. It is quite evident the tradition with ringdances on Yule/Jul
            is very old. They did indeed belong to the emperors guard and they
            were decidedly Northmen/Scandinavians.

            Best
            Ingemar



            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
            to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          • faltin2001
            ... the Goths ... Hi Valulfr, as Ingemar explained this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Goths. We have no information about Gothic dances at all. If
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...> wrote:
              > Hails,
              > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
              > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
              > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted,
              the "Goths"
              > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
              > here is a discription of the dance itself.
              >
              > Thank you,
              > Valulfr


              Hi Valulfr,

              as Ingemar explained this has nothing whatsoever to do with the
              Goths. We have no information about Gothic dances at all. If somebody
              described the ringelreign of Varangian bodyguards as 'Gothic dance'
              he/she simply didn't know what they were talking about.

              Cheers
              Dirk
            • faltin2001
              The description of this Gothic dance is from: Constantine VII Porphyrgenitus: De Ceremonies Aulae Byzantinae, in which the emperor describes the Byzantine
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
                The description of this 'Gothic dance' is from:

                Constantine VII Porphyrgenitus: De Ceremonies Aulae Byzantinae, in
                which the emperor describes the Byzantine court ceremonies. However,
                as noted earlier this dance referes to the Varangian guards in
                Constantinopel in the 10th century. It has nothing to do with the
                East Germanic Goths.

                Cheers
                Dirk





                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...>
                wrote:
                > > Hails,
                > > While doing some research, I came across something referred to
                as
                > > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
                > > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted,
                > the "Goths"
                > > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
                > > here is a discription of the dance itself.
                > >
                > > Thank you,
                > > Valulfr
                >
                >
                > Hi Valulfr,
                >
                > as Ingemar explained this has nothing whatsoever to do with the
                > Goths. We have no information about Gothic dances at all. If
                somebody
                > described the ringelreign of Varangian bodyguards as 'Gothic dance'
                > he/she simply didn't know what they were talking about.
                >
                > Cheers
                > Dirk
              • Tore Gannholm
                Hi! Do we know when the Varangian guard was established? Tore ... --
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
                  Hi!
                  Do we know when the Varangian guard was established?
                  Tore

                  >Hails
                  >
                  >Yes, this is the Varangian guard. They dressed up in full war gear and ran
                  >around in a circle inside the palace. I think they did this every time an
                  >emperor died. They were allowed to pillage the emperors hoard. I could be
                  >mixing two things here though.
                  >
                  >Terje
                  >
                  >
                  >>From: "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@...>
                  >>Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  >>To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                  >>Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic Dance?
                  >>Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:09:05 -0000
                  >>
                  >>Hails,
                  >> While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
                  >>the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
                  >>Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
                  >>mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
                  >>here is a discription of the dance itself.
                  >>
                  >>Thank you,
                  > >Valulfr
                  >>


                  --
                • faltin2001
                  ... This web-site claims that the Varangian guard was established in 988AD, by emperor Basilios III.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 5, 2003
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hi!
                    > Do we know when the Varangian guard was established?
                    > Tore




                    This web-site claims that the Varangian guard was established in
                    988AD, by emperor Basilios III.

                    http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/period/guard.htm


                    This is apparently the first mentioning of the Varangian guard,
                    including a contemporary drawing. The first mentioning refers to a
                    Varangian who tried to rape a women and was killed by her.

                    http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/period/skylitzes_peter.h
                    tm

                    Another picture showing them with their axes is here.

                    http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/period/skylitzes1.htm


                    Dirk





                    >
                    > >Hails
                    > >
                    > >Yes, this is the Varangian guard. They dressed up in full war gear
                    and ran
                    > >around in a circle inside the palace. I think they did this every
                    time an
                    > >emperor died. They were allowed to pillage the emperors hoard. I
                    could be
                    > >mixing two things here though.
                    > >
                    > >Terje
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>From: "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...>
                    > >>Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > >>To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    > >>Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic Dance?
                    > >>Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:09:05 -0000
                    > >>
                    > >>Hails,
                    > >> While doing some research, I came across something referred
                    to as
                    > >>the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
                    > >>Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted,
                    the "Goths"
                    > >>mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
                    > >>here is a discription of the dance itself.
                    > >>
                    > >>Thank you,
                    > > >Valulfr
                    > >>
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                  • hrafnsnest
                    Great info. all - But do we know if the term Gothic dance is used in the original text, or is this a literary device used by Prof. H.R. Davidson? In
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 5, 2003
                      Great info. all -
                      But do we know if the term 'Gothic dance' is used in the original
                      text, or is this a literary device used by Prof. H.R. Davidson? In
                      addition can someone provide the exact description of the dance, and
                      what they were wearing? I have several Prof. Davidson's works, but
                      not the one mentioned.

                      Thanks,
                      Valulfr
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