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Gothic Dance?

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  • hrafnsnest
    Hails, While doing some research, I came across something referred to as the Gothic Dance . The author references the Byzantine Book of Ceremonies . Can
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
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      Hails,
      While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
      the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
      Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
      mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
      here is a discription of the dance itself.

      Thank you,
      Valulfr
    • Elena Alcamesi
      The Byzantine emperor Constantine VII refers in his Book of Ceremonies to a Gothic Dance performed by members of his Varangian guard, who took part wearing
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
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        The Byzantine emperor Constantine VII refers in his Book of Ceremonies to a
        "Gothic Dance" performed by members of his Varangian guard, who took part
        wearing animal skins and masks. You can read a description in H.P.
        Ellis-Davidson, Pagan Scandinavia, New York: Frederick A. Praeger. 1967, p.
        100.
        Ellis-Davidson suggests that this type of costumed dance is also seen in
        figures from Swedish helmet plates, scabbard ornaments, and bracteates which
        depict human figures with the heads of bears or wolves, dressed in animal
        skins but having human hands and feet. These figures often carry spears or
        swords, and are depicted as running or dancing.


        > Hails,
        > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
        > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
        > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
        > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
        > here is a discription of the dance itself.
        >
        > Thank you,
        > Valulfr
        >
        >
        >
        > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
        to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
        >
        >
      • Terje Ellefsen
        Hails Yes, this is the Varangian guard. They dressed up in full war gear and ran around in a circle inside the palace. I think they did this every time an
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
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          Hails

          Yes, this is the Varangian guard. They dressed up in full war gear and ran
          around in a circle inside the palace. I think they did this every time an
          emperor died. They were allowed to pillage the emperors hoard. I could be
          mixing two things here though.

          Terje


          >From: "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@...>
          >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
          >Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic Dance?
          >Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:09:05 -0000
          >
          >Hails,
          > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
          >the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
          >Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
          >mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
          >here is a discription of the dance itself.
          >
          >Thank you,
          >Valulfr
          >

          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Ingemar Nordgren
          ... Hi Valulfr! The description says that they took each others hands and danced/ran round in a circle while crying jul, jul and seeming very happy and
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...> wrote:
            > Hails,
            > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
            > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
            > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
            > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
            > here is a discription of the dance itself.
            >
            > Thank you,
            > Valulfr

            Hi Valulfr!

            The description says that they took each others hands and danced/ran
            round in a circle while crying "jul, jul" and seeming very happy and
            merry. It is quite evident the tradition with ringdances on Yule/Jul
            is very old. They did indeed belong to the emperors guard and they
            were decidedly Northmen/Scandinavians.

            Best
            Ingemar
          • Le Bateman
            Does anyone know if the Goths had a word similar to the OE Hlaford another of their words for Lord, or Master. Le ... From: Ingemar Nordgren
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 3, 2003
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              Does anyone know if the Goths had a word similar to the OE Hlaford another
              of their words for Lord, or Master.
              Le
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Ingemar Nordgren" <ingemar@...>
              To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, August 03, 2003 7:03 PM
              Subject: [gothic-l] Re: Gothic Dance?


              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...> wrote:
              > Hails,
              > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
              > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
              > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
              > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
              > here is a discription of the dance itself.
              >
              > Thank you,
              > Valulfr

              Hi Valulfr!

              The description says that they took each others hands and danced/ran
              round in a circle while crying "jul, jul" and seeming very happy and
              merry. It is quite evident the tradition with ringdances on Yule/Jul
              is very old. They did indeed belong to the emperors guard and they
              were decidedly Northmen/Scandinavians.

              Best
              Ingemar



              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email
              to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.

              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            • faltin2001
              ... the Goths ... Hi Valulfr, as Ingemar explained this has nothing whatsoever to do with the Goths. We have no information about Gothic dances at all. If
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...> wrote:
                > Hails,
                > While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
                > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
                > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted,
                the "Goths"
                > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
                > here is a discription of the dance itself.
                >
                > Thank you,
                > Valulfr


                Hi Valulfr,

                as Ingemar explained this has nothing whatsoever to do with the
                Goths. We have no information about Gothic dances at all. If somebody
                described the ringelreign of Varangian bodyguards as 'Gothic dance'
                he/she simply didn't know what they were talking about.

                Cheers
                Dirk
              • faltin2001
                The description of this Gothic dance is from: Constantine VII Porphyrgenitus: De Ceremonies Aulae Byzantinae, in which the emperor describes the Byzantine
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
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                  The description of this 'Gothic dance' is from:

                  Constantine VII Porphyrgenitus: De Ceremonies Aulae Byzantinae, in
                  which the emperor describes the Byzantine court ceremonies. However,
                  as noted earlier this dance referes to the Varangian guards in
                  Constantinopel in the 10th century. It has nothing to do with the
                  East Germanic Goths.

                  Cheers
                  Dirk





                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...>
                  wrote:
                  > > Hails,
                  > > While doing some research, I came across something referred to
                  as
                  > > the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
                  > > Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted,
                  > the "Goths"
                  > > mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
                  > > here is a discription of the dance itself.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you,
                  > > Valulfr
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Valulfr,
                  >
                  > as Ingemar explained this has nothing whatsoever to do with the
                  > Goths. We have no information about Gothic dances at all. If
                  somebody
                  > described the ringelreign of Varangian bodyguards as 'Gothic dance'
                  > he/she simply didn't know what they were talking about.
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  > Dirk
                • Tore Gannholm
                  Hi! Do we know when the Varangian guard was established? Tore ... --
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 4, 2003
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                    Hi!
                    Do we know when the Varangian guard was established?
                    Tore

                    >Hails
                    >
                    >Yes, this is the Varangian guard. They dressed up in full war gear and ran
                    >around in a circle inside the palace. I think they did this every time an
                    >emperor died. They were allowed to pillage the emperors hoard. I could be
                    >mixing two things here though.
                    >
                    >Terje
                    >
                    >
                    >>From: "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@...>
                    >>Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    >>To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                    >>Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic Dance?
                    >>Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:09:05 -0000
                    >>
                    >>Hails,
                    >> While doing some research, I came across something referred to as
                    >>the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
                    >>Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted, the "Goths"
                    >>mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
                    >>here is a discription of the dance itself.
                    >>
                    >>Thank you,
                    > >Valulfr
                    >>


                    --
                  • faltin2001
                    ... This web-site claims that the Varangian guard was established in 988AD, by emperor Basilios III.
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 5, 2003
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                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hi!
                      > Do we know when the Varangian guard was established?
                      > Tore




                      This web-site claims that the Varangian guard was established in
                      988AD, by emperor Basilios III.

                      http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/period/guard.htm


                      This is apparently the first mentioning of the Varangian guard,
                      including a contemporary drawing. The first mentioning refers to a
                      Varangian who tried to rape a women and was killed by her.

                      http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/period/skylitzes_peter.h
                      tm

                      Another picture showing them with their axes is here.

                      http://users.bigpond.net.au/quarfwa/miklagard/period/skylitzes1.htm


                      Dirk





                      >
                      > >Hails
                      > >
                      > >Yes, this is the Varangian guard. They dressed up in full war gear
                      and ran
                      > >around in a circle inside the palace. I think they did this every
                      time an
                      > >emperor died. They were allowed to pillage the emperors hoard. I
                      could be
                      > >mixing two things here though.
                      > >
                      > >Terje
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>From: "hrafnsnest" <wulfsligrs@c...>
                      > >>Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                      > >>To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
                      > >>Subject: [gothic-l] Gothic Dance?
                      > >>Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 14:09:05 -0000
                      > >>
                      > >>Hails,
                      > >> While doing some research, I came across something referred
                      to as
                      > >>the "Gothic Dance". The author references the "Byzantine Book of
                      > >>Ceremonies". Can anyone be of assistance here? Granted,
                      the "Goths"
                      > >>mentioned were probably Varangian Guard, but what I'm looking for
                      > >>here is a discription of the dance itself.
                      > >>
                      > >>Thank you,
                      > > >Valulfr
                      > >>
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                    • hrafnsnest
                      Great info. all - But do we know if the term Gothic dance is used in the original text, or is this a literary device used by Prof. H.R. Davidson? In
                      Message 10 of 10 , Aug 5, 2003
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                        Great info. all -
                        But do we know if the term 'Gothic dance' is used in the original
                        text, or is this a literary device used by Prof. H.R. Davidson? In
                        addition can someone provide the exact description of the dance, and
                        what they were wearing? I have several Prof. Davidson's works, but
                        not the one mentioned.

                        Thanks,
                        Valulfr
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