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[gothic-l] Re: 'namna' is correct

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  • jdm314@aol.com
    jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=720 ... following ... him ... I thoungt it was Benoni, but I don t have my
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
      jdm31-@... wrote:
      original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=720
      > Um, my Oxford Study Edition of the New English Bible, states the
      following
      > about the birth of Benjamin, son of Rachel and Jacob:
      >
      > "Then with her [Rachel's] last breath , as she was dying, she named
      him
      > Benboni

      I thoungt it was Benoni, but I don't have my bible handy.

      > {b}, but his father called him Benjamin.{c}
      >
      > {b} That is, Son of my ill luck.
      > {c} That is, Son of good luck or Son of the right hand."
      >
      > It would seem that since the bible pretty much spelled out the
      meaning of
      > Benjamin in the text, it would have been hard for people to backform
      the jamin
      > to mean anything but "good luck" or "right hand" They were, after
      all, The

      Right hand is actually the first meaning, but the point is that it's a
      well-omened name.


      > people of the book, and probably would have been knowledgeable enough
      to know
      > the meaning of the name which made up one of the twelve tribes.

      Embelishment of the stories certainly did occur with all sorts of
      exegesis beyond what we get in the bible, but I agree with you: the
      Benjamin > Jamin > James thing is inspired, but almost certainly a new
      idea.

      -JDM


      >
      > Just my two shekels,
      >
      > Andy
      >
      >
      >
      > At 02:04 PM 9/1/99 , you wrote:
      >
      > <blockquote type=cite cite><blockquote type=cite cite>I suppose we
      could
      > even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?</pre><font
      > size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to be a question, let me
      answer
      > briefly: unlikely. <br>As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son
      > called Benjamin. <br>It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking
      > community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was
      considered to
      > be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>Christian <br><hr><div
      > align="center"><a href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>C
      lick
      > Here! <br></a></div>eGroups.com home: <a
      > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
      roup/go
      > thic-l</a><br><a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
      > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
      > communications<br></blockquote><br></font></html>
      > >
      > > <blockquote type=cite cite>I suppose we could even have a Late
      > Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?</pre>> <font
      > size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to be a question, let me
      answer
      > briefly: unlikely. <br>> As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a
      son
      > called Benjamin. <br>> It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking
      > community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was
      considered to
      > be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>> Christian <br>> <hr>> <div
      > align="center">> <a href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br
      >>
      > Click Here! <br>> </a></div>> eGroups.com home: <a
      > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
      roup/go
      > thic-l</a><br>> <a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
      > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
      > communications<br>> </blockquote><br>> </font></html>>
      > >>
      > >> I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for
      > "James"?</pre>>> <font size=3></blockquote>Since this is
      meant to
      > be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely. <br>>> As the OT
      tells us,
      > Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin. <br>>> It's likely that,
      later
      > on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way
      that
      > 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>>>
      > Christian <br>>> <hr>>> <div align="center">>> <a
      > href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>>> Click Here!
      <br>>>
      > </a></div>>> eGroups.com home: <a
      > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
      roup/go
      > thic-l</a><br>>> <a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
      > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
      > communications<br>>> </blockquote><br>>> </font></html>>>
      > >
      > > Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly:
      unlikely.
      > > As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
      > > It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
      > > 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
      > fathered
      > > the 'b.n'.
      > > Christian
      > >
      > > ----------
      > > <http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757>
      > > Click Here!
      > > eGroups.com home:
      > > <http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l>http://www.egroups.com/group
      /gothic-l
      > > www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
      >
      >
      >
    • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
      ... ne. Well, were dealing with a Semitic name here. If Benjamin is from b-n y-m-n we have the nasalization of -b- (a bilabial and probably fricative). m is a
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
        jdm314@... wrote:
        >
        > jdm31-@... wrote:
        > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=715
        > > > I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?
        > > >
        > > Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely.
        > > As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
        > > It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
        > > 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
        > > fathered the 'b.n'.
        >
        > An interesting explanation, but one I have never heard (not that I'm
        > an authority). But if this is the case, what languages do we have an -m
        > form attested in? I know English James, Italian Giacomo, Gaelic
        > Seamus... and actually I'd always heard the English "James" was a
        > Scotticism anyway, but I don't know how reliable that source was.
        > Other languages that distinguish Jacob and James usually do so without
        > the m getting involved, French Jacques/Jacob, Spanish Diego/Jacob...
        > oh, on the other hand Jaime... well I guess I have to concede the point
        > the way things are going here.
        >
        > > Christian
        ne.

        Well, were dealing with a Semitic name here. If Benjamin is from b-n
        y-m-n
        we have the nasalization of -b- (a bilabial and probably fricative). m
        is a bilabial nasal. This makes sense. However, the -m- variant probably
        is a coincidence with the later Latin variation in Iacomus; it simply
        derives from the same phonetic phenomenon. This is because -b- is medial
        and in this position has a tendency toward a form of lenition either
        fricative or nasal. In any case, if the beth was originally a bilabial
        fricative then medially it would have a tendency to become nasalized.
        In Latin we can compare the variant spellings of the British tribe
        Catuvellauni as CATUUELLAUNI or CATUBELLAUNI /KA-tu-WEL-lau-ni/ or
        /KA-tu-BEL-lau-ni/..both /w/ and /b/ are bilabial. Here no nasalization
        but we have a glide versus a plosive.
        Tomas
      • jdm314@aol.com
        jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=721 ... your post, but neither do I have anything interesting to say about
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
          jdm31-@... wrote:
          original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=721
          > Concerning James:
          >
          > Apparently, [SNIP, I do not contovert anything in the majority of
          your post, but neither do I have anything interesting to say about it]

          > As for Jason, in Greek the intitial iota could have been the vowel
          > followed by the /j/, Latin would have simply made this /j-/ like the y
          > in yellow. Latin I and Greek iota were commonly used to represent the
          > consonantal /j-/ when followed by a vowel. Modern Latin or Romance
          > languages changed this to the /dj-/ quality rather comparatively late
          --
          > toward the last two centuries of the first millenium. Spanish speakers

          I know this story off course, my point about Iason is NOT the
          orthography, though. My point was that since the name occurs in poetry
          (both Greek and Latin) we know that the i was pronounced as a VOWEL in
          this particular name (at least in the formal situation of a poem)
          However, it seems to me likely that colloquially it was pronounced
          CONSONENTALLY as i was in many other words and names, since it yields a
          j- in other languages, and the consonental i- regularly does this.
          Contrast names like Io (not Jo) and so on.
          Note, of course, that Jason's fater was Æson, which is simply a
          metathesis of his name when written in Greek- IASÔN/AISÔN


          > apparently had a hard time keeping up with the Italian fashions in
          > pronunciation for we find Diego/Iago for Iacobus/Giacomo and Juan and
          > Jose for Iohannes/Giovanni and Iosephus/Giuseppe. French was probably

          Diego/Iago I get, but are Juan and Jose borrowed from Italian?? I
          assumed they were just the Spanish outcomes of those names.
          Though ingluence of Giuseppe sure explains why Pepe is a nickname for
          Jose!


          > first in changing the pronunciation of initial consonantal i.
          > Would not Karls (with a non palatalized k-) be a likely candidate for
          a
          > Gothic form of Charles/Carl?

          It sounds more likely to me, but then I don't know the first thing
          about this subject and I'm just going on sound ;)

          Ïusteinus

          > Tomas
        • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
          ... Latin was centered in Italian Rome. Latin speech was always judged by the Roman standard. Modern Italian is considered the closest Romance Language
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 4, 1999
            Iusteinus:
            > Diego/Iago I get, but are Juan and Jose borrowed from Italian?? I
            > assumed they were just the Spanish outcomes of those names.
            > Though ingluence of Giuseppe sure explains why Pepe is a nickname for
            > Jose!
            >
            Latin was centered in Italian Rome. Latin speech was always judged by
            the Roman standard. Modern Italian is considered the closest Romance
            Language descendent of the ancient Latin even counting the archaism of
            Sardininan.
            IOSEPHUS was probably pronounced /"Yo-SEP-hus"/ at first, then later
            IOSEPHE (vocative) "Yo-SE-pe" and variants in Yu-SE-pe and /Yu-SEP-pe/
            then finally /Dju-SEP-pe/ "Giuseppe." PH /p+h/ was originally
            distinguished from PH /f/. Late Latin still had an influence on the
            provinces and took their fashions from Rome until the Latin culture
            gradually was established in provincial cities.
            after the Roman empire, and during Carolus Magnus time, the vain attempt
            to keep Latin was lost and an uphill battle -- something like to trying
            to impose Elizabethan--Shakespearean and Authorized Biblical King James
            English on modern North Americans and peoples of the United Kingdom.

            > > Would not Karls (with a non palatalized k-) be a likely candidate for
            > a
            > > Gothic form of Charles/Carl?
            >
            > It sounds more likely to me, but then I don't know the first thing
            > about this subject and I'm just going on sound ;)
            >
            > Ïusteinus

            If not Karls then perharps Kairls?
            I assume that no one has found the cognate word in Gothic.
            It seems to me that given what was said about the origin of the
            name/noun Karl/Ceorl on the others' postings, we have a divergence
            between a palatal and non-palatal k- in protoGermanic.
            What would be the Gothic equivalents of:
            Jarl
            Karl
            Thrall
            Indeed, would this not be imposing a projection of an Icelandic Norse
            social system onto the Goths, whose own social system was may have been
            similar in arrangement but probably different in details and
            terminology.
            Tomas
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