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[gothic-l] Re: 'namna' is correct

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  • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
    Concerning James: Apparently, the original Hebrew has Yakov/Yakob. The letter beth may have been a bilabial fricative because modern Hebrew pronunciations
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
      Concerning James:

      Apparently, the original Hebrew has Yakov/Yakob. The letter beth may
      have been a bilabial fricative because modern Hebrew pronunciations
      (Sephardic) use /v/ as the final vowel which may have been originally a
      bilabial fricative rather than a labio-dental fricative. Borrowed into
      Indo-European Greek as Iacobos and Latin as Iacobus /Yakobos/ and
      /Yakobus/ there would have existed a nasalized lenited version in
      Iacomus /Yakomus/ which becomes later Giacomo. Seamus and James is
      simply borrowed from Norman French as is Sean/John in Gaelic and English
      respectively. Jacques is also French from Iacobus! Even in modern Greek
      the letter beta is now pronounced /v/ rather than /b/. As early as Koine
      Greek, the beta may have became a bilabial fricative before becoming a
      labio-dental fricative as in Modern Greek. In other Eastern European
      languages such as Russian it is Yakov, probably borrowed directly from
      mediaeval Greek.
      At any rate, we are dealing with Semitic names borrowed into Greek and
      eventually to other languages such as Latin, Gothic etc. At any rate,
      both B and M are bilabial sounds a plosive/stop in B and nasal in M.
      Carolus with the svarabhakti vowel in the o is probably correct here as
      /KA-ro-lus/ and the Frankish name was probably Karl in which a
      svarabhakti schwa was heard after the r. It gave rise to French Charles
      -- pronounced /"Tcharless"/ in Old French and /"Sharl"/ in modern
      French, and Carlos in Spanish, Carlo in Italian.
      English churl from OE ceorl was probably /CHEH-rl/ with another
      pronunication in Northumbrian /k'e-r-l/ with the svarabhakti. A form in
      crul is simply an example of metathesis. Apparently some dialects of Old
      English trilled or flapped the r and the Wessex dialect did not -- just
      as in Modern English varieties. Probably Common Germanic kerlaz with a
      variant in karlaz. The distintinction was probably the palatal k- versus
      the non palatalized k-.
      As for Jason, in Greek the intitial iota could have been the vowel
      followed by the /j/, Latin would have simply made this /j-/ like the y
      in yellow. Latin I and Greek iota were commonly used to represent the
      consonantal /j-/ when followed by a vowel. Modern Latin or Romance
      languages changed this to the /dj-/ quality rather comparatively late --
      toward the last two centuries of the first millenium. Spanish speakers
      apparently had a hard time keeping up with the Italian fashions in
      pronunciation for we find Diego/Iago for Iacobus/Giacomo and Juan and
      Jose for Iohannes/Giovanni and Iosephus/Giuseppe. French was probably
      first in changing the pronunciation of initial consonantal i.
      Would not Karls (with a non palatalized k-) be a likely candidate for a
      Gothic form of Charles/Carl?
      Tomas
    • jdm314@aol.com
      jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=720 ... following ... him ... I thoungt it was Benoni, but I don t have my
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
        jdm31-@... wrote:
        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=720
        > Um, my Oxford Study Edition of the New English Bible, states the
        following
        > about the birth of Benjamin, son of Rachel and Jacob:
        >
        > "Then with her [Rachel's] last breath , as she was dying, she named
        him
        > Benboni

        I thoungt it was Benoni, but I don't have my bible handy.

        > {b}, but his father called him Benjamin.{c}
        >
        > {b} That is, Son of my ill luck.
        > {c} That is, Son of good luck or Son of the right hand."
        >
        > It would seem that since the bible pretty much spelled out the
        meaning of
        > Benjamin in the text, it would have been hard for people to backform
        the jamin
        > to mean anything but "good luck" or "right hand" They were, after
        all, The

        Right hand is actually the first meaning, but the point is that it's a
        well-omened name.


        > people of the book, and probably would have been knowledgeable enough
        to know
        > the meaning of the name which made up one of the twelve tribes.

        Embelishment of the stories certainly did occur with all sorts of
        exegesis beyond what we get in the bible, but I agree with you: the
        Benjamin > Jamin > James thing is inspired, but almost certainly a new
        idea.

        -JDM


        >
        > Just my two shekels,
        >
        > Andy
        >
        >
        >
        > At 02:04 PM 9/1/99 , you wrote:
        >
        > <blockquote type=cite cite><blockquote type=cite cite>I suppose we
        could
        > even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?</pre><font
        > size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to be a question, let me
        answer
        > briefly: unlikely. <br>As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son
        > called Benjamin. <br>It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking
        > community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was
        considered to
        > be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>Christian <br><hr><div
        > align="center"><a href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>C
        lick
        > Here! <br></a></div>eGroups.com home: <a
        > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
        roup/go
        > thic-l</a><br><a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
        > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
        > communications<br></blockquote><br></font></html>
        > >
        > > <blockquote type=cite cite>I suppose we could even have a Late
        > Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?</pre>> <font
        > size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to be a question, let me
        answer
        > briefly: unlikely. <br>> As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a
        son
        > called Benjamin. <br>> It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking
        > community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was
        considered to
        > be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>> Christian <br>> <hr>> <div
        > align="center">> <a href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br
        >>
        > Click Here! <br>> </a></div>> eGroups.com home: <a
        > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
        roup/go
        > thic-l</a><br>> <a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
        > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
        > communications<br>> </blockquote><br>> </font></html>>
        > >>
        > >> I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for
        > "James"?</pre>>> <font size=3></blockquote>Since this is
        meant to
        > be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely. <br>>> As the OT
        tells us,
        > Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin. <br>>> It's likely that,
        later
        > on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way
        that
        > 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>>>
        > Christian <br>>> <hr>>> <div align="center">>> <a
        > href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>>> Click Here!
        <br>>>
        > </a></div>>> eGroups.com home: <a
        > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
        roup/go
        > thic-l</a><br>>> <a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
        > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
        > communications<br>>> </blockquote><br>>> </font></html>>>
        > >
        > > Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly:
        unlikely.
        > > As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
        > > It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
        > > 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
        > fathered
        > > the 'b.n'.
        > > Christian
        > >
        > > ----------
        > > <http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757>
        > > Click Here!
        > > eGroups.com home:
        > > <http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l>http://www.egroups.com/group
        /gothic-l
        > > www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
        >
        >
        >
      • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
        ... ne. Well, were dealing with a Semitic name here. If Benjamin is from b-n y-m-n we have the nasalization of -b- (a bilabial and probably fricative). m is a
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
          jdm314@... wrote:
          >
          > jdm31-@... wrote:
          > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=715
          > > > I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?
          > > >
          > > Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely.
          > > As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
          > > It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
          > > 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
          > > fathered the 'b.n'.
          >
          > An interesting explanation, but one I have never heard (not that I'm
          > an authority). But if this is the case, what languages do we have an -m
          > form attested in? I know English James, Italian Giacomo, Gaelic
          > Seamus... and actually I'd always heard the English "James" was a
          > Scotticism anyway, but I don't know how reliable that source was.
          > Other languages that distinguish Jacob and James usually do so without
          > the m getting involved, French Jacques/Jacob, Spanish Diego/Jacob...
          > oh, on the other hand Jaime... well I guess I have to concede the point
          > the way things are going here.
          >
          > > Christian
          ne.

          Well, were dealing with a Semitic name here. If Benjamin is from b-n
          y-m-n
          we have the nasalization of -b- (a bilabial and probably fricative). m
          is a bilabial nasal. This makes sense. However, the -m- variant probably
          is a coincidence with the later Latin variation in Iacomus; it simply
          derives from the same phonetic phenomenon. This is because -b- is medial
          and in this position has a tendency toward a form of lenition either
          fricative or nasal. In any case, if the beth was originally a bilabial
          fricative then medially it would have a tendency to become nasalized.
          In Latin we can compare the variant spellings of the British tribe
          Catuvellauni as CATUUELLAUNI or CATUBELLAUNI /KA-tu-WEL-lau-ni/ or
          /KA-tu-BEL-lau-ni/..both /w/ and /b/ are bilabial. Here no nasalization
          but we have a glide versus a plosive.
          Tomas
        • jdm314@aol.com
          jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=721 ... your post, but neither do I have anything interesting to say about
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
            jdm31-@... wrote:
            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=721
            > Concerning James:
            >
            > Apparently, [SNIP, I do not contovert anything in the majority of
            your post, but neither do I have anything interesting to say about it]

            > As for Jason, in Greek the intitial iota could have been the vowel
            > followed by the /j/, Latin would have simply made this /j-/ like the y
            > in yellow. Latin I and Greek iota were commonly used to represent the
            > consonantal /j-/ when followed by a vowel. Modern Latin or Romance
            > languages changed this to the /dj-/ quality rather comparatively late
            --
            > toward the last two centuries of the first millenium. Spanish speakers

            I know this story off course, my point about Iason is NOT the
            orthography, though. My point was that since the name occurs in poetry
            (both Greek and Latin) we know that the i was pronounced as a VOWEL in
            this particular name (at least in the formal situation of a poem)
            However, it seems to me likely that colloquially it was pronounced
            CONSONENTALLY as i was in many other words and names, since it yields a
            j- in other languages, and the consonental i- regularly does this.
            Contrast names like Io (not Jo) and so on.
            Note, of course, that Jason's fater was Æson, which is simply a
            metathesis of his name when written in Greek- IASÔN/AISÔN


            > apparently had a hard time keeping up with the Italian fashions in
            > pronunciation for we find Diego/Iago for Iacobus/Giacomo and Juan and
            > Jose for Iohannes/Giovanni and Iosephus/Giuseppe. French was probably

            Diego/Iago I get, but are Juan and Jose borrowed from Italian?? I
            assumed they were just the Spanish outcomes of those names.
            Though ingluence of Giuseppe sure explains why Pepe is a nickname for
            Jose!


            > first in changing the pronunciation of initial consonantal i.
            > Would not Karls (with a non palatalized k-) be a likely candidate for
            a
            > Gothic form of Charles/Carl?

            It sounds more likely to me, but then I don't know the first thing
            about this subject and I'm just going on sound ;)

            Ïusteinus

            > Tomas
          • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
            ... Latin was centered in Italian Rome. Latin speech was always judged by the Roman standard. Modern Italian is considered the closest Romance Language
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 4, 1999
              Iusteinus:
              > Diego/Iago I get, but are Juan and Jose borrowed from Italian?? I
              > assumed they were just the Spanish outcomes of those names.
              > Though ingluence of Giuseppe sure explains why Pepe is a nickname for
              > Jose!
              >
              Latin was centered in Italian Rome. Latin speech was always judged by
              the Roman standard. Modern Italian is considered the closest Romance
              Language descendent of the ancient Latin even counting the archaism of
              Sardininan.
              IOSEPHUS was probably pronounced /"Yo-SEP-hus"/ at first, then later
              IOSEPHE (vocative) "Yo-SE-pe" and variants in Yu-SE-pe and /Yu-SEP-pe/
              then finally /Dju-SEP-pe/ "Giuseppe." PH /p+h/ was originally
              distinguished from PH /f/. Late Latin still had an influence on the
              provinces and took their fashions from Rome until the Latin culture
              gradually was established in provincial cities.
              after the Roman empire, and during Carolus Magnus time, the vain attempt
              to keep Latin was lost and an uphill battle -- something like to trying
              to impose Elizabethan--Shakespearean and Authorized Biblical King James
              English on modern North Americans and peoples of the United Kingdom.

              > > Would not Karls (with a non palatalized k-) be a likely candidate for
              > a
              > > Gothic form of Charles/Carl?
              >
              > It sounds more likely to me, but then I don't know the first thing
              > about this subject and I'm just going on sound ;)
              >
              > Ïusteinus

              If not Karls then perharps Kairls?
              I assume that no one has found the cognate word in Gothic.
              It seems to me that given what was said about the origin of the
              name/noun Karl/Ceorl on the others' postings, we have a divergence
              between a palatal and non-palatal k- in protoGermanic.
              What would be the Gothic equivalents of:
              Jarl
              Karl
              Thrall
              Indeed, would this not be imposing a projection of an Icelandic Norse
              social system onto the Goths, whose own social system was may have been
              similar in arrangement but probably different in details and
              terminology.
              Tomas
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