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Goths and Scandinavia

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  • finnestorp
    The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some polish i belive that
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 10, 2003
      The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
      historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
      polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
      indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
      Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
      Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
      Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
      Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
      show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
      continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
      find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
      in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
      such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
      contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
      eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
      evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
      well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
      Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
      elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
      during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
      These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
      a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
      grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
      Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
      traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
      of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
      the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
      Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
      cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
      focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
      origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
      tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
      archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
      reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
      be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
      in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
      on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
      Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
      groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
      into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
      culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
      in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
      record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
      the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
      background.
    • Tore Gannholm
      Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is available for reading in my
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 10, 2003
        Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems
        to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is
        available for reading in my research library on
        http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm

        Tore


        >The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
        >historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
        >polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
        >indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
        >Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
        >Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
        >Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
        >Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
        >show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
        >continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
        >find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
        >in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
        >such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
        >contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
        >eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
        >evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
        >well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
        >Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
        >elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
        >during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
        >These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
        >a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
        >grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
        >Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
        >traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
        >of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
        >the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
        >Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
        >cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
        >focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
        >origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
        >tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
        >archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
        >reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
        >be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
        >in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
        >on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
        >Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
        >groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
        >into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
        >culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
        >in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
        >record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
        >the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
        >background.
        >

        --
      • faltin2001
        ... These are names - ethnonyms! Only historians and philologists can decide on a connection between ethnic groups, because artefacts don t usually carry
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 11, 2003
          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "finnestorp" <martin.skoglund@s...>
          wrote:
          > The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
          > historians.



          These are names - ethnonyms! Only historians and philologists can
          decide on a connection between ethnic groups, because artefacts don't
          usually carry names. Archaeologists can tell us which material
          cultures had contacts, moved to which places or took influences from
          which other cultures. But they cannot say that Goths and Goetar and
          Gutar have anything to do with each other.

          Hence, this problem was studied by historians and philologists mostly
          and the latest work in this line is A. S. Christensen's book on
          Jordanes and Cassiodorus, and Christensen showed that Gutar/Goetar
          and Gothi have basically nothing in common, thus confirming the
          archaeological evidence regarding the respective material cultures
          involved.

          Francisc said a few important things in an earlier message. There are
          always those people who want to connect themselves, their country
          their people their history to the glorious past of a seemingly heroic
          people like the Goths. Hence, we had Scandinavians for centuries
          claiming that they are the Goths or that they are decendents of the
          Goths or at least that the Goths are Scandinavians. Some people even
          said that the Goths were the brethren or kinsmen of the
          Scandinavians. And now we have even some Indians making similar
          claims. All of this is wrong and a distortion of history. It
          completely disregards what we know about ethnic dynamics in those
          periods.

          The actual ethnic people of the Gothi was created just north of the
          Black Sea sometime around 200AD. The most eminent scholars like
          Wolfram, Schwarcs, Heather, Pohl, Goffart and others would all agree
          on this. The history of the Goths is a fractured history consisting
          of multipe ethnogeneses. The straight migration lines of old text
          books are a thing of the past. The ethnogenesis at the Black Sea
          involved various groups, of which the Germanic component was clearly
          the most dominante. We can only assume that the Gotones of the first
          century were involved, but we cannot deduct this from the Getica.
          Instead, we must use archaeology and first/second century
          historiography to presume this link.

          This ethnogenesis took place in a geographical region which was bound
          to the Germania proper for centuries, by trade links etc. as A.
          Kaliff and others have shown. Other Germanic groups, like the Sciri
          and Basternae had also moved from the Oder river to the lower Danube
          along the same routes which people had used for centuries as finds
          like the Vedersfelder fish show. Clearly, Scandinavia was certainly a
          part of this trade and exchange nexus. Groups of Scandinavians will
          at practically all times have settled on the continent, and
          archaeological evidence seems to point to a movement of
          Scandinavians, especially from the broad aread Funen to the Black
          Sea, which may be linked to the movement of Heruls from 200AD.

          However, all this is different from claims that the Goths were
          Scandinavians, that the Goths had come from Scandinavia etc. The
          Goths emerged only aroud 200AD in an area far removed from
          Scandinavia. The material culture on which their ethnogenesis was
          based has never been in Scandinavia or derived from Scandinavia (let
          alone India, but his goes without saying). Their Germanic language
          was not closer to North Germanic than to any other Germanic dialect.
          Tracing a Gothic history to the Vistula is already questionable, as
          Christensen has demonstrated, but trying to push their history back
          to the period BC is simply not permissable.


          Cheers,
          Dirk







          Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
          > polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
          > indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
          > Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
          > Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
          > Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
          > Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern
          Sweden
          > show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
          > continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in
          the
          > find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue
          excavations
          > in the past few years have contributed with material for the study
          of
          > such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
          > contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
          > eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
          > evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery
          as
          > well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
          > Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
          > elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
          > during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
          > These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued
          in
          > a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
          > grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
          > Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
          > traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
          > of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern
          research,
          > the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
          > Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from
          earlier
          > cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
          > focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a
          Nordic
          > origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
          > tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
          > archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
          > reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures
          can
          > be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps
          originating
          > in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield
          groups
          > on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
          > Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
          > groups in different geographic areas could eventually have
          developed
          > into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
          > culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in
          similarities
          > in material culture, language and burial customs. The
          archaeological
          > record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin
          of
          > the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
          > background.
        • Tore Gannholm
          Another intersting piece of information is Professor Mårten Stenbergers descritpition of Gotlands trade relations from an archaeological point of view.
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 13, 2003
            Another intersting piece of information is Professor Mårten
            Stenbergers descritpition of Gotlands trade relations from an
            archaeological point of view.

            Unforutnately I can't find that it has been published in either
            English or German.
            http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/romaniron_/forngotland/default.htm


            "Under yngre bronsålder, som inföll ca 1000-500 f. Kr. f.,
            intensifierades den gotländska handeln. Med de av nordisk formgivning
            kännetecknade föremålen förenar sig ett stort antal främmande
            produkter, som peka åt samma håll som många av importartiklarna från
            äldre bronsålder, men en del ge perspektiv av långt större räckvidd.
            Handeln hade blivit vad vi på modernt språk skulle kallat
            internationell. Inte så, att de gotländska köpmännen alltid
            personligen uppsökt de områden, där dessa olika föremål blivit
            framställda, men genom egen och andras verksamhet och initiativ hade
            de blivit medlemmar av den merkantila gemenskapen i ett affärsivrigt,
            av handelsforor och farkoster livligt genomkorsat Europa. Det var
            alltså ej endast med grannländerna i väster, söder och öster och de
            närmast utanför dessa belägna affärskretsarna, man på Gotland var mer
            eller mindre förbunden, utan ön nåddes av varor, som tillverkats i
            avlägset liggande länder, i väst- och centraleuropa, ja till och med
            i Kaukasusområdet. Föremålen från det senare området torde angiva en
            handelsled tvärs genom det nuvarande Ryssland. Särskilt livliga voro
            emellertid förbindelserna med nordtyskland, östra Skandinavien och
            Baltikum, medan av allt att döma det dansk-skånska området av någon
            anledning nu kommit mera i skymundan.

            Den gotländska kulturen var emellertid inte endast mottagande utan
            även expansiv. Väster om Rigaviken, i Kurland, finns en flock
            skeppsformiga stensättningar, lika dem på Gotland och hänförande sig
            till samma tid som dessa, vilka ej kunna uppfattas på annat sätt än
            som byggda av människor, vilka utflyttat från Gotland till andra
            sidan Östersjön."

            "During younger bronze age that occurred ca 1000-500 B.C. the
            Gotlandic trade was intensified. Together with those of Nordic design
            recognized artefacts we can also see a large amount of imported
            products. These point at the same direction as the import goods from
            the older bronze age. However some give the perspective of coming
            from much further away. Trade had become,as we today call
            international. That does not mean that the Gotlandic business men
            always personally visited the areas where these artefacts were
            produced. Through their own and others efforts and initiative had
            they become members of the mercantile community which in various ways
            criss-crossed Europe. It was not only with the neighbors in West
            East and South and those countries next to them the people on Gotland
            had contact. Goods from far away like West- and Central Europa as
            well as Kaukasus reached Gotland. Goods from the latter area indicate
            a trade route through present day Russia. Especially lively were the
            connections with North Germany, Eastern Scandinavia and Balticum. On
            the other hand the Danish-Skåne area lost in importance.

            The Gotlandic culture was however not only receiving but even
            expansive. West of the Golf of Riga in Kurland there are a couple of
            graves in ships form, similar to those in Gotland and date to the
            same period. These can only be interpreted as built by people that
            have emigrated from Gotland to the other side of the Baltic."

            "Tiden ca 150-Kr. f. har kännetecknats av stort materiellt uppsving
            på Gotland liksom på Öland och i de östra delarna av det
            fastlandssvenska området samt mellansverige. Stora gravfält, som
            varit gemensamma för några gårdar eller en begränsad bygd, börja visa
            sig. Den tidigare fattigdomen avlöses av rikedom på fynd, så talrika
            till och med, att Gotland är rikare representerat från denna tid än
            varje annan del av vårt land. "

            "The time about 150 B.C. marks a great material lift in Gotland as
            well as in Öland and in the eastern parts of the Swedish mainland.
            Large grave fields that were common for some farms or a limited area
            start to show. The earlier time of poverty is changed into large
            richness of finds, so numerous that Gotland has more finds than any
            other part of Sweden."

            "Den utrustning, som den gotländske krigaren har under keltisk tid,
            var i stort sett densamma som de östgermanska stammarnas på
            kontinenten och med keltiskt vapenskick hade den föga gemensamt. I
            vapenformerna på östgermansk botten spåras inflytanden under ett
            tidigare skede från den för länge sedan försvunna Hallstattkulturen. "

            "The equipment that the Gotlandic warrior uses during celtic time is
            more or less the same as the East germanic tribes on the continent.
            With celtic armour it had nothing to do. In the forms of weapons in
            the East germanic areas one can trace the influence from an earlier
            era long ago, the Hallstatt culture that disappeared"

            Tore





            Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems
            to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is
            available for reading in my research library on
            http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm

            Tore


            >The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
            >historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
            >polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
            >indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
            >Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
            >Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
            >Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
            >Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
            >show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
            >continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
            >find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
            >in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
            >such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
            >contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
            >eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
            >evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
            >well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
            >Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
            >elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
            >during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
            >These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
            >a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
            >grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
            >Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
            >traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
            >of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
            >the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
            >Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
            >cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
            >focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
            >origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
            >tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
            >archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
            >reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
            >be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
            >in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
            >on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
            >Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
            >groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
            >into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
            >culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
            >in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
            >record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
            >the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
            >background.
            >

            --

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