Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

[gothic-l] 'namna' is correct

Expand Messages
  • Christian Petersen
    ... Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely. As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin. It s likely that,
    Message 1 of 9 , Sep 1, 1999
    • 0 Attachment
      I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?
      Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely.
      As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
      It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who fathered the 'b.n'.
      Christian
    • jdm314@aol.com
      jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=715 ... An interesting explanation, but one I have never heard (not that
      Message 2 of 9 , Sep 1, 1999
      • 0 Attachment
        jdm31-@... wrote:
        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=715
        > > I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?
        > >
        > Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely.
        > As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
        > It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
        > 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
        > fathered the 'b.n'.

        An interesting explanation, but one I have never heard (not that I'm
        an authority). But if this is the case, what languages do we have an -m
        form attested in? I know English James, Italian Giacomo, Gaelic
        Seamus... and actually I'd always heard the English "James" was a
        Scotticism anyway, but I don't know how reliable that source was.
        Other languages that distinguish Jacob and James usually do so without
        the m getting involved, French Jacques/Jacob, Spanish Diego/Jacob...
        oh, on the other hand Jaime... well I guess I have to concede the point
        the way things are going here.


        > Christian
        >
      • Andrew Howey
        Hello: I m no expert, but I had read that ben in Hebrew/Jewish names means son of , like the -son/-sen suffix attached to a lot of Scandinavian names. I
        Message 3 of 9 , Sep 1, 1999
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello:

          I'm no expert, but I had read that "ben" in Hebrew/Jewish names means "son
          of", like the -son/-sen suffix attached to a lot of Scandinavian names. I
          don't know about "Benjamin" specifically, but, according to what I've read,
          if "benjamin" was segmented, then there should be another name, let's say
          "Aaron" and then "ben Jamin" (Aaron, son of Jamin) -- just like in Leif
          Erikson (Leif, son of Erik).

          Andy Howey

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Christian Petersen [mailto:ctp@...-kiel.de]
          Sent: Wednesday, September 01, 1999 2:04 PM
          To: Gothic List
          Subject: [gothic-l] 'namna' is correct



          I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?

          Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely.
          As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
          It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
          'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
          fathered the 'b.n'.
          Christian
          _____

          <http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757>
          click here <http://clickhere.egroups.com/img/000757/BA1078.gif>

          Click Here!
          eGroups.com home: http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l
          <http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l>
          www.egroups.com <http://www.egroups.com> - Simplifying group communications
        • Andy Schwarz
          Um, my Oxford Study Edition of the New English Bible, states the following about the birth of Benjamin, son of Rachel and Jacob: Then with her [Rachel s] last
          Message 4 of 9 , Sep 1, 1999
          • 0 Attachment
            Um, my Oxford Study Edition of the New English Bible, states the following
            about the birth of Benjamin, son of Rachel and Jacob:

            "Then with her [Rachel's] last breath , as she was dying, she named him
            Benboni
            {b}, but his father called him Benjamin.{c}

            {b} That is, Son of my ill luck.
            {c} That is, Son of good luck or Son of the right hand."

            It would seem that since the bible pretty much spelled out the meaning of
            Benjamin in the text, it would have been hard for people to backform the jamin
            to mean anything but "good luck" or "right hand" They were, after all, The
            people of the book, and probably would have been knowledgeable enough to know
            the meaning of the name which made up one of the twelve tribes.

            Just my two shekels,

            Andy



            At 02:04 PM 9/1/99 , you wrote:

            <blockquote type=cite cite><blockquote type=cite cite>I suppose we could
            even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?</pre><font
            size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer
            briefly: unlikely. <br>As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son
            called Benjamin. <br>It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking
            community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to
            be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>Christian <br><hr><div
            align="center"><a href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>Click
            Here! <br></a></div>eGroups.com home: <a
            href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/group/go
            thic-l</a><br><a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
            eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
            communications<br></blockquote><br></font></html>
            >
            > <blockquote type=cite cite>I suppose we could even have a Late
            Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?</pre>> <font
            size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer
            briefly: unlikely. <br>> As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son
            called Benjamin. <br>> It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking
            community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to
            be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>> Christian <br>> <hr>> <div
            align="center">> <a href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>>
            Click Here! <br>> </a></div>> eGroups.com home: <a
            href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/group/go
            thic-l</a><br>> <a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
            eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
            communications<br>> </blockquote><br>> </font></html>>
            >>
            >> I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for
            "James"?</pre>>> <font size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to
            be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely. <br>>> As the OT tells us,
            Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin. <br>>> It's likely that, later
            on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that
            'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>>>
            Christian <br>>> <hr>>> <div align="center">>> <a
            href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>>> Click Here! <br>>>
            </a></div>>> eGroups.com home: <a
            href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/group/go
            thic-l</a><br>>> <a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
            eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
            communications<br>>> </blockquote><br>>> </font></html>>>
            >
            > Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely.
            > As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
            > It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
            > 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
            fathered
            > the 'b.n'.
            > Christian
            >
            > ----------
            > <http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757>
            > Click Here!
            > eGroups.com home:
            > <http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l>http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l
            > www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
          • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
            Concerning James: Apparently, the original Hebrew has Yakov/Yakob. The letter beth may have been a bilabial fricative because modern Hebrew pronunciations
            Message 5 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
            • 0 Attachment
              Concerning James:

              Apparently, the original Hebrew has Yakov/Yakob. The letter beth may
              have been a bilabial fricative because modern Hebrew pronunciations
              (Sephardic) use /v/ as the final vowel which may have been originally a
              bilabial fricative rather than a labio-dental fricative. Borrowed into
              Indo-European Greek as Iacobos and Latin as Iacobus /Yakobos/ and
              /Yakobus/ there would have existed a nasalized lenited version in
              Iacomus /Yakomus/ which becomes later Giacomo. Seamus and James is
              simply borrowed from Norman French as is Sean/John in Gaelic and English
              respectively. Jacques is also French from Iacobus! Even in modern Greek
              the letter beta is now pronounced /v/ rather than /b/. As early as Koine
              Greek, the beta may have became a bilabial fricative before becoming a
              labio-dental fricative as in Modern Greek. In other Eastern European
              languages such as Russian it is Yakov, probably borrowed directly from
              mediaeval Greek.
              At any rate, we are dealing with Semitic names borrowed into Greek and
              eventually to other languages such as Latin, Gothic etc. At any rate,
              both B and M are bilabial sounds a plosive/stop in B and nasal in M.
              Carolus with the svarabhakti vowel in the o is probably correct here as
              /KA-ro-lus/ and the Frankish name was probably Karl in which a
              svarabhakti schwa was heard after the r. It gave rise to French Charles
              -- pronounced /"Tcharless"/ in Old French and /"Sharl"/ in modern
              French, and Carlos in Spanish, Carlo in Italian.
              English churl from OE ceorl was probably /CHEH-rl/ with another
              pronunication in Northumbrian /k'e-r-l/ with the svarabhakti. A form in
              crul is simply an example of metathesis. Apparently some dialects of Old
              English trilled or flapped the r and the Wessex dialect did not -- just
              as in Modern English varieties. Probably Common Germanic kerlaz with a
              variant in karlaz. The distintinction was probably the palatal k- versus
              the non palatalized k-.
              As for Jason, in Greek the intitial iota could have been the vowel
              followed by the /j/, Latin would have simply made this /j-/ like the y
              in yellow. Latin I and Greek iota were commonly used to represent the
              consonantal /j-/ when followed by a vowel. Modern Latin or Romance
              languages changed this to the /dj-/ quality rather comparatively late --
              toward the last two centuries of the first millenium. Spanish speakers
              apparently had a hard time keeping up with the Italian fashions in
              pronunciation for we find Diego/Iago for Iacobus/Giacomo and Juan and
              Jose for Iohannes/Giovanni and Iosephus/Giuseppe. French was probably
              first in changing the pronunciation of initial consonantal i.
              Would not Karls (with a non palatalized k-) be a likely candidate for a
              Gothic form of Charles/Carl?
              Tomas
            • jdm314@aol.com
              jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=720 ... following ... him ... I thoungt it was Benoni, but I don t have my
              Message 6 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
              • 0 Attachment
                jdm31-@... wrote:
                original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=720
                > Um, my Oxford Study Edition of the New English Bible, states the
                following
                > about the birth of Benjamin, son of Rachel and Jacob:
                >
                > "Then with her [Rachel's] last breath , as she was dying, she named
                him
                > Benboni

                I thoungt it was Benoni, but I don't have my bible handy.

                > {b}, but his father called him Benjamin.{c}
                >
                > {b} That is, Son of my ill luck.
                > {c} That is, Son of good luck or Son of the right hand."
                >
                > It would seem that since the bible pretty much spelled out the
                meaning of
                > Benjamin in the text, it would have been hard for people to backform
                the jamin
                > to mean anything but "good luck" or "right hand" They were, after
                all, The

                Right hand is actually the first meaning, but the point is that it's a
                well-omened name.


                > people of the book, and probably would have been knowledgeable enough
                to know
                > the meaning of the name which made up one of the twelve tribes.

                Embelishment of the stories certainly did occur with all sorts of
                exegesis beyond what we get in the bible, but I agree with you: the
                Benjamin > Jamin > James thing is inspired, but almost certainly a new
                idea.

                -JDM


                >
                > Just my two shekels,
                >
                > Andy
                >
                >
                >
                > At 02:04 PM 9/1/99 , you wrote:
                >
                > <blockquote type=cite cite><blockquote type=cite cite>I suppose we
                could
                > even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?</pre><font
                > size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to be a question, let me
                answer
                > briefly: unlikely. <br>As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son
                > called Benjamin. <br>It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking
                > community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was
                considered to
                > be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>Christian <br><hr><div
                > align="center"><a href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>C
                lick
                > Here! <br></a></div>eGroups.com home: <a
                > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
                roup/go
                > thic-l</a><br><a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
                > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
                > communications<br></blockquote><br></font></html>
                > >
                > > <blockquote type=cite cite>I suppose we could even have a Late
                > Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?</pre>> <font
                > size=3></blockquote>Since this is meant to be a question, let me
                answer
                > briefly: unlikely. <br>> As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a
                son
                > called Benjamin. <br>> It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking
                > community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was
                considered to
                > be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>> Christian <br>> <hr>> <div
                > align="center">> <a href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br
                >>
                > Click Here! <br>> </a></div>> eGroups.com home: <a
                > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
                roup/go
                > thic-l</a><br>> <a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
                > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
                > communications<br>> </blockquote><br>> </font></html>>
                > >>
                > >> I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for
                > "James"?</pre>>> <font size=3></blockquote>Since this is
                meant to
                > be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely. <br>>> As the OT
                tells us,
                > Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin. <br>>> It's likely that,
                later
                > on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented 'ben-jamin' in the way
                that
                > 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who fathered the 'b.n'. <br>>>
                > Christian <br>>> <hr>>> <div align="center">>> <a
                > href="http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757"><br>>> Click Here!
                <br>>>
                > </a></div>>> eGroups.com home: <a
                > href="http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l">http://www.egroups.com/g
                roup/go
                > thic-l</a><br>>> <a href="http://www.egroups.com/"
                > eudora="autourl">www.egroups.com</a> - Simplifying group
                > communications<br>>> </blockquote><br>>> </font></html>>>
                > >
                > > Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly:
                unlikely.
                > > As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
                > > It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
                > > 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
                > fathered
                > > the 'b.n'.
                > > Christian
                > >
                > > ----------
                > > <http://clickhere.egroups.com/click/757>
                > > Click Here!
                > > eGroups.com home:
                > > <http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l>http://www.egroups.com/group
                /gothic-l
                > > www.egroups.com - Simplifying group communications
                >
                >
                >
              • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
                ... ne. Well, were dealing with a Semitic name here. If Benjamin is from b-n y-m-n we have the nasalization of -b- (a bilabial and probably fricative). m is a
                Message 7 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
                • 0 Attachment
                  jdm314@... wrote:
                  >
                  > jdm31-@... wrote:
                  > original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=715
                  > > > I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?
                  > > >
                  > > Since this is meant to be a question, let me answer briefly: unlikely.
                  > > As the OT tells us, Jacob and Rachel had a son called Benjamin.
                  > > It's likely that, later on, the Hebrew speaking community segmented
                  > > 'ben-jamin' in the way that 'j.m.n' was considered to be the one who
                  > > fathered the 'b.n'.
                  >
                  > An interesting explanation, but one I have never heard (not that I'm
                  > an authority). But if this is the case, what languages do we have an -m
                  > form attested in? I know English James, Italian Giacomo, Gaelic
                  > Seamus... and actually I'd always heard the English "James" was a
                  > Scotticism anyway, but I don't know how reliable that source was.
                  > Other languages that distinguish Jacob and James usually do so without
                  > the m getting involved, French Jacques/Jacob, Spanish Diego/Jacob...
                  > oh, on the other hand Jaime... well I guess I have to concede the point
                  > the way things are going here.
                  >
                  > > Christian
                  ne.

                  Well, were dealing with a Semitic name here. If Benjamin is from b-n
                  y-m-n
                  we have the nasalization of -b- (a bilabial and probably fricative). m
                  is a bilabial nasal. This makes sense. However, the -m- variant probably
                  is a coincidence with the later Latin variation in Iacomus; it simply
                  derives from the same phonetic phenomenon. This is because -b- is medial
                  and in this position has a tendency toward a form of lenition either
                  fricative or nasal. In any case, if the beth was originally a bilabial
                  fricative then medially it would have a tendency to become nasalized.
                  In Latin we can compare the variant spellings of the British tribe
                  Catuvellauni as CATUUELLAUNI or CATUBELLAUNI /KA-tu-WEL-lau-ni/ or
                  /KA-tu-BEL-lau-ni/..both /w/ and /b/ are bilabial. Here no nasalization
                  but we have a glide versus a plosive.
                  Tomas
                • jdm314@aol.com
                  jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=721 ... your post, but neither do I have anything interesting to say about
                  Message 8 of 9 , Sep 2, 1999
                  • 0 Attachment
                    jdm31-@... wrote:
                    original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=721
                    > Concerning James:
                    >
                    > Apparently, [SNIP, I do not contovert anything in the majority of
                    your post, but neither do I have anything interesting to say about it]

                    > As for Jason, in Greek the intitial iota could have been the vowel
                    > followed by the /j/, Latin would have simply made this /j-/ like the y
                    > in yellow. Latin I and Greek iota were commonly used to represent the
                    > consonantal /j-/ when followed by a vowel. Modern Latin or Romance
                    > languages changed this to the /dj-/ quality rather comparatively late
                    --
                    > toward the last two centuries of the first millenium. Spanish speakers

                    I know this story off course, my point about Iason is NOT the
                    orthography, though. My point was that since the name occurs in poetry
                    (both Greek and Latin) we know that the i was pronounced as a VOWEL in
                    this particular name (at least in the formal situation of a poem)
                    However, it seems to me likely that colloquially it was pronounced
                    CONSONENTALLY as i was in many other words and names, since it yields a
                    j- in other languages, and the consonental i- regularly does this.
                    Contrast names like Io (not Jo) and so on.
                    Note, of course, that Jason's fater was Æson, which is simply a
                    metathesis of his name when written in Greek- IASÔN/AISÔN


                    > apparently had a hard time keeping up with the Italian fashions in
                    > pronunciation for we find Diego/Iago for Iacobus/Giacomo and Juan and
                    > Jose for Iohannes/Giovanni and Iosephus/Giuseppe. French was probably

                    Diego/Iago I get, but are Juan and Jose borrowed from Italian?? I
                    assumed they were just the Spanish outcomes of those names.
                    Though ingluence of Giuseppe sure explains why Pepe is a nickname for
                    Jose!


                    > first in changing the pronunciation of initial consonantal i.
                    > Would not Karls (with a non palatalized k-) be a likely candidate for
                    a
                    > Gothic form of Charles/Carl?

                    It sounds more likely to me, but then I don't know the first thing
                    about this subject and I'm just going on sound ;)

                    Ïusteinus

                    > Tomas
                  • Tomas Mac an Chrosain
                    ... Latin was centered in Italian Rome. Latin speech was always judged by the Roman standard. Modern Italian is considered the closest Romance Language
                    Message 9 of 9 , Sep 4, 1999
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Iusteinus:
                      > Diego/Iago I get, but are Juan and Jose borrowed from Italian?? I
                      > assumed they were just the Spanish outcomes of those names.
                      > Though ingluence of Giuseppe sure explains why Pepe is a nickname for
                      > Jose!
                      >
                      Latin was centered in Italian Rome. Latin speech was always judged by
                      the Roman standard. Modern Italian is considered the closest Romance
                      Language descendent of the ancient Latin even counting the archaism of
                      Sardininan.
                      IOSEPHUS was probably pronounced /"Yo-SEP-hus"/ at first, then later
                      IOSEPHE (vocative) "Yo-SE-pe" and variants in Yu-SE-pe and /Yu-SEP-pe/
                      then finally /Dju-SEP-pe/ "Giuseppe." PH /p+h/ was originally
                      distinguished from PH /f/. Late Latin still had an influence on the
                      provinces and took their fashions from Rome until the Latin culture
                      gradually was established in provincial cities.
                      after the Roman empire, and during Carolus Magnus time, the vain attempt
                      to keep Latin was lost and an uphill battle -- something like to trying
                      to impose Elizabethan--Shakespearean and Authorized Biblical King James
                      English on modern North Americans and peoples of the United Kingdom.

                      > > Would not Karls (with a non palatalized k-) be a likely candidate for
                      > a
                      > > Gothic form of Charles/Carl?
                      >
                      > It sounds more likely to me, but then I don't know the first thing
                      > about this subject and I'm just going on sound ;)
                      >
                      > Ïusteinus

                      If not Karls then perharps Kairls?
                      I assume that no one has found the cognate word in Gothic.
                      It seems to me that given what was said about the origin of the
                      name/noun Karl/Ceorl on the others' postings, we have a divergence
                      between a palatal and non-palatal k- in protoGermanic.
                      What would be the Gothic equivalents of:
                      Jarl
                      Karl
                      Thrall
                      Indeed, would this not be imposing a projection of an Icelandic Norse
                      social system onto the Goths, whose own social system was may have been
                      similar in arrangement but probably different in details and
                      terminology.
                      Tomas
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.