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Wielbark Culture

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  • sunnytjatsingh
    Hi Dirk, I never received any comment regarding this post. Thoughts? Christensen: My omission of the discussion of the archaeological discoveries in what is
    Message 1 of 6 , Jul 8, 2003
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      Hi Dirk, I never received any comment regarding this post. Thoughts?

      Christensen:

      "My omission of the discussion of the archaeological discoveries in
      what is now Poland is intentional. They are normally identified with
      the Goths (the Wielbark culture). However, the basis for this
      identification is Jordanes's Getica along with the texts
      mentioned here, written by Strabo, Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy. If
      the
      archaeologists did not find the name-related material here, they
      would naturally not be able to attach any names of certain peoples to
      their finds since, to my knowledge, no inscriptions have been found
      that indicate any particular ethnicity. The archaeologists are
      therefore unable to prove that the antique texts deal with Goths
      (Christensen 2002:40)."

      Christensen, A.S. Cassidorus Jordanses and the History of the Goths
      Studies in a Migration Myth. Copenhagen. Museum Tusculanum Press:
      2002.

      Regards,
    • sunnytjatsingh
      Hi Dirk, I am beginning to think you are deliberately not commenting on this point mentioned by Christensen: My omission of the discussion of the
      Message 2 of 6 , Jul 10, 2003
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        Hi Dirk, I am beginning to think you are deliberately not commenting
        on this point mentioned by Christensen:

        "My omission of the discussion of the archaeological discoveries in
        what is now Poland is intentional. They are normally identified with
        the Goths (the Wielbark culture). However, the basis for this
        identification is Jordanes's Getica along with the texts
        mentioned here, written by Strabo, Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy. If
        the
        archaeologists did not find the name-related material here, they
        would naturally not be able to attach any names of certain peoples to
        their finds since, to my knowledge, no inscriptions have been found
        that indicate any particular ethnicity. The archaeologists are
        therefore unable to prove that the antique texts deal with Goths
        (Christensen 2002:40)."

        Christensen, A.S. Cassidorus Jordanses and the History of the Goths
        Studies in a Migration Myth. Copenhagen. Museum Tusculanum Press:
        2002.

        Best Wishes,
      • Tore Gannholm
        ... This is very interesting. Christensen is a historian and only looks at written sources. As there is almost no contemporary written sources we have to look
        Message 3 of 6 , Jul 10, 2003
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          >Hi Dirk, I never received any comment regarding this post. Thoughts?
          >
          >Christensen:
          >
          >"My omission of the discussion of the archaeological discoveries in
          >what is now Poland is intentional. They are normally identified with
          >the Goths (the Wielbark culture). However, the basis for this
          >identification is Jordanes's Getica along with the texts
          >mentioned here, written by Strabo, Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy. If
          >the
          >archaeologists did not find the name-related material here, they
          >would naturally not be able to attach any names of certain peoples to
          >their finds since, to my knowledge, no inscriptions have been found
          >that indicate any particular ethnicity. The archaeologists are
          >therefore unable to prove that the antique texts deal with Goths
          >(Christensen 2002:40)."
          >
          >Christensen, A.S. Cassidorus Jordanses and the History of the Goths
          >Studies in a Migration Myth. Copenhagen. Museum Tusculanum Press:
          >2002.
          >
          >Regards,
          >

          This is very interesting. Christensen is a historian and only looks
          at written sources. As there is almost no contemporary written
          sources we have to look at the archaeological evidence. The
          archaeologist can read the written sources to get a hint where to
          dig. If the written sources have any substance the archaeologists
          will find the proof they need.

          In the case of the Getica we don't know what is coming down through
          the oral tradition and what is invented by Cassiodorus and Jordanes.

          Herwig Wolfram writes "After having conquered the Romans, the Goths
          understand that their leaders are not ordinary humans but demigods,
          which is why they call them Ansis/Aesir. Do not expect to find real
          names in Theoderiks genealogy, most of them emanate from sources
          about the Getae, while the Ansis/Amal tradition is of oral Gothic
          origin. This was politically important for Theoderic in order to be
          accepted by the old Italian families.

          Some say this is all taken from litterary sources but that is not
          true. The expulsion of the witches, for example, was to be of
          Jewish-Christian origin, but since the word "halliurunnae" (witches)
          has a Gothic stem, it must be part of the original tradition."
          "Wolfram argues that the concept, that all barbarian history is
          nothing but litterature, is wrong. He feels that there is always a
          core of historical tradition hidden somewhere. He specially mentions
          Walter Goffart's "Narrators of Barbarian History" in which these
          simplifications are made."


          In recent years extensive excavations have taken place in the Vistula
          area and Elblag.
          This was presented at a symposium in Lidköing in 1992 where professor
          Jerzy Okulicz-Kozaryn, Warszawa read a paper about his latest
          findings.


          see http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/romaniron_/kulturcentrum/default.htm

          Summary page 42

          The paper was presented in German but I only have it in the Swedish
          version translated and published by Ingemar. I hope he has the
          original which I would like to include in this page.

          Afterwards there was a discussion where professor Herwig Wolfram from
          Wien was very pleased and stated that with this paper it was the
          first time he gets a view over what the Wielbark culture actually is.

          Professor Okulicz-Kozaryn was very convinced with his interpretations
          about a common Baltic culture with the center in the Elblag area. It
          is the Ember trade that is very profitable that is foundation of this
          culture.

          He writes: "The preliminary discussion of research results from the
          Weklice cemetery presented here, with an attempt to present them in a
          broader historical context shows that we are not dealing here with a
          marginal and minor area of the Wielbark Culture but with one of the
          centres of the amber coast, crucial for understanding the
          far-reaching ties between the Baltic region and various areas of the
          Roman Empire and European Barbaricum. "

          "It is difficult not to associate such a strong economical position
          of the group in question with the organization of the southward
          migrations of population. It is surprising that no existing
          publications concerning the migration of Goths and Gepidae engaged in
          such a basic comprehensive confrontation of sources."

          He has no misgivings about Gotland being a part of this.

          Tore


          --

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • faltin2001
          ... commenting ... Hi Sunny, what is there to comment on? If you have a question about this statement please formulate it. Otherwise I cannot see what is
          Message 4 of 6 , Jul 11, 2003
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "sunnytjatsingh"
            <sunnytjatsingh@y...> wrote:
            > Hi Dirk, I am beginning to think you are deliberately not
            commenting
            > on this point mentioned by Christensen:



            Hi Sunny,

            what is there to comment on? If you have a question about this
            statement please formulate it. Otherwise I cannot see what is unclear
            about this for you.

            Clearly, we know that the Wielbark culture shifted from the Vistula
            to the Black Sea where it developed into the Chernyakhovsk culture.
            We know that the Gothi were part of the Chernyakhovsk culture. Since
            this culture came mostly from the Vistula, we assume that the
            Gothones, who are mentioned there by Tacitus and Ptolemy are the
            forerunners of the Gothi.

            Cheers
            Dirk









            >
            > "My omission of the discussion of the archaeological discoveries in
            > what is now Poland is intentional. They are normally identified
            with
            > the Goths (the Wielbark culture). However, the basis for this
            > identification is Jordanes's Getica along with the texts
            > mentioned here, written by Strabo, Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy. If
            > the
            > archaeologists did not find the name-related material here, they
            > would naturally not be able to attach any names of certain peoples
            to
            > their finds since, to my knowledge, no inscriptions have been found
            > that indicate any particular ethnicity. The archaeologists are
            > therefore unable to prove that the antique texts deal with Goths
            > (Christensen 2002:40)."
            >
            > Christensen, A.S. Cassidorus Jordanses and the History of the Goths
            > Studies in a Migration Myth. Copenhagen. Museum Tusculanum Press:
            > 2002.
            >
            > Best Wishes,
          • Tore Gannholm
            Professor Wolframs paper apppeard as Origo et religio. Ethnic traditions and literature in early medieval texts. Early Medieval Europe 3 (1994) 19-38. Some
            Message 5 of 6 , Jul 17, 2003
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              Professor Wolframs paper apppeard as Origo et religio. Ethnic
              traditions and literature in early medieval texts. Early Medieval
              Europe 3 (1994) 19-38.

              Some quotes: "A striking example is Walter Goffart, /The/ Narrators
              /of B,arbarian History, A.D. 550-800/ (Princeton, 1989), P. 77, n.
              276: 'Wolfram ... claims that these incidents (notablv the Gothic
              acclamation of their proceres as Ansis: see below n. 40) take place
              "in grauer Vorzeit", a halfmillenium before the time counting.' The
              quoted reference, however, shows that Goffart simply replaced
              Jordanes by Wolfram to prove his point that the latter's Geschichte
              der Goten 'seems to have been conceived in the form of an updated
              Getica'"

              "Misrepresentation does not release us, however, from the obligation
              of reconsidering the traditions abused in the manner described above.
              Can we indeed properly speak of 'archaic traditions' in the first
              place?24 Scholars have already made up their minds in their critique
              of the sources. Whence comes our information? How much credit do our
              informants deserve? Are they really the 'Narrators of Barbarian
              History'? Are Walter Goffart and his supporters correct in denying
              their corporate identity and interpreting these works as harmless
              literature or irony, or even love stories?25 But how could it be
              otherwise when modern scholars search in Christian, classically
              educated, medieval authors for concepts and traditions which are
              supposed to mirror pre-Christian ethnic historicity, that is, 'real'
              archaic pagan life ?26"

              "These observations give us something to think about. First of all,
              heroic saga and heroic poetry are not the same. Secondly, ethnic
              traditions in early medieval texts cannot be studied as mere
              literature belonging only to the time they came to be written down.
              The methods, skills and techniques of exegesis are also required.
              Northrop Frye is highly praised, and rightly so, but in his brilliant
              book The Great Code one looks in vain for Matthew I, 1 ff., where
              Christ's threefold fourteen-generation family tree is delivered. Thus
              The Great Code's index does not contain the entry 'genealogy'. This
              one-sided approach toward an origo gentis such as the bible is
              followed by Walter Goffart with the result that his Narrators of
              Barbarian History, though an intelligent, witty, and even amusing
              book,68 misses the point because it commits the methodological sin of
              treating every text polemically as mere literature, that is, as its
              author's creation ex nihilo. Consequently, Goffart dislikes
              continuity as a whole and neglects any archaic texture, that is, all
              the prefabricated elements of tradition, which past authors (re)used
              to construct their texts. As to Goffart's argument that his
              'Narrators' are authors of politically situated and programmatic
              literature, this is no different from every other text that was ever
              written.69 Even granting Goffart were correct that Jordanes had
              composed the Getica as an ironic piece of literature and a 'love
              story', this says nothing about, let alone against, the elements from
              which Jordanes ultimately constructed his stories. Consequently, the
              statement that something is literature is no value judgement or even
              verdict, and, certainly, does not make the exegetic historian
              jobless. The genealogies composed for Theodoric the Great, Rothari,
              the Scandinavian kings or, say, Alexander III of Scotland (1249)
              start with gods or demi-gods. These genealogies are, of course,
              literature, but their message still served its purpose, that is, to
              legitimize kingship by ethnic traditions no matter how deeply rooted
              in 'genuine' oral memoriae. Or in other words, even the most radical
              travesty of founding gods and heirs presupposes the belief in their
              existence albeit euhemeristically transformed and distorted. The gods
              of the pedigrees must have originally embodied sacred realities, and
              this is true whether in the Middle Ages they are still presented as
              sacred, or demonic, as divine, or human, as power, or as aniles
              fabulae (old women's tales).70"

              Tore






              >Hi Dirk, I never received any comment regarding this post. Thoughts?
              >
              >Christensen:
              >
              >"My omission of the discussion of the archaeological discoveries in
              >what is now Poland is intentional. They are normally identified with
              >the Goths (the Wielbark culture). However, the basis for this
              >identification is Jordanes's Getica along with the texts
              >mentioned here, written by Strabo, Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy. If
              >the
              >archaeologists did not find the name-related material here, they
              >would naturally not be able to attach any names of certain peoples to
              >their finds since, to my knowledge, no inscriptions have been found
              >that indicate any particular ethnicity. The archaeologists are
              >therefore unable to prove that the antique texts deal with Goths
              >(Christensen 2002:40)."
              >
              >Christensen, A.S. Cassidorus Jordanses and the History of the Goths
              >Studies in a Migration Myth. Copenhagen. Museum Tusculanum Press:
              >2002.
              >
              >Regards,
              >

              This is very interesting. Christensen is a historian and only looks
              at written sources. As there is almost no contemporary written
              sources we have to look at the archaeological evidence. The
              archaeologist can read the written sources to get a hint where to
              dig. If the written sources have any substance the archaeologists
              will find the proof they need.

              In the case of the Getica we don't know what is coming down through
              the oral tradition and what is invented by Cassiodorus and Jordanes.

              Herwig Wolfram writes "After having conquered the Romans, the Goths
              understand that their leaders are not ordinary humans but demigods,
              which is why they call them Ansis/Aesir. Do not expect to find real
              names in Theoderiks genealogy, most of them emanate from sources
              about the Getae, while the Ansis/Amal tradition is of oral Gothic
              origin. This was politically important for Theoderic in order to be
              accepted by the old Italian families.

              Some say this is all taken from litterary sources but that is not
              true. The expulsion of the witches, for example, was to be of
              Jewish-Christian origin, but since the word "halliurunnae" (witches)
              has a Gothic stem, it must be part of the original tradition."
              "Wolfram argues that the concept, that all barbarian history is
              nothing but litterature, is wrong. He feels that there is always a
              core of historical tradition hidden somewhere. He specially mentions
              Walter Goffart's "Narrators of Barbarian History" in which these
              simplifications are made."


              In recent years extensive excavations have taken place in the Vistula
              area and Elblag.
              This was presented at a symposium in Lidköing in 1992 where professor
              Jerzy Okulicz-Kozaryn, Warszawa read a paper about his latest
              findings.


              see http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/romaniron_/kulturcentrum/default.htm

              Summary page 42

              The paper was presented in German but I only have it in the Swedish
              version translated and published by Ingemar. I hope he has the
              original which I would like to include in this page.

              Afterwards there was a discussion where professor Herwig Wolfram from
              Wien was very pleased and stated that with this paper it was the
              first time he gets a view over what the Wielbark culture actually is.

              Professor Okulicz-Kozaryn was very convinced with his interpretations
              about a common Baltic culture with the center in the Elblag area. It
              is the Ember trade that is very profitable that is foundation of this
              culture.

              He writes: "The preliminary discussion of research results from the
              Weklice cemetery presented here, with an attempt to present them in a
              broader historical context shows that we are not dealing here with a
              marginal and minor area of the Wielbark Culture but with one of the
              centres of the amber coast, crucial for understanding the
              far-reaching ties between the Baltic region and various areas of the
              Roman Empire and European Barbaricum. "

              "It is difficult not to associate such a strong economical position
              of the group in question with the organization of the southward
              migrations of population. It is surprising that no existing
              publications concerning the migration of Goths and Gepidae engaged in
              such a basic comprehensive confrontation of sources."

              He has no misgivings about Gotland being a part of this.

              Tore


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            • Tore Gannholm
              Wolframs paper is available on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/romaniron_/origo/default.htm Tore Professor Wolframs paper apppeard as Origo et religio. Ethnic
              Message 6 of 6 , Aug 4, 2003
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                Wolframs paper is available on
                http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/romaniron_/origo/default.htm

                Tore


                Professor Wolframs paper apppeard as Origo et religio. Ethnic
                traditions and literature in early medieval texts. Early Medieval
                Europe 3 (1994) 19-38.

                Some quotes: "A striking example is Walter Goffart, /The/ Narrators
                /of B,arbarian History, A.D. 550-800/ (Princeton, 1989), P. 77, n.
                276: 'Wolfram ... claims that these incidents (notablv the Gothic
                acclamation of their proceres as Ansis: see below n. 40) take place
                "in grauer Vorzeit", a halfmillenium before the time counting.' The
                quoted reference, however, shows that Goffart simply replaced
                Jordanes by Wolfram to prove his point that the latter's Geschichte
                der Goten 'seems to have been conceived in the form of an updated
                Getica'"

                "Misrepresentation does not release us, however, from the obligation
                of reconsidering the traditions abused in the manner described above.
                Can we indeed properly speak of 'archaic traditions' in the first
                place?24 Scholars have already made up their minds in their critique
                of the sources. Whence comes our information? How much credit do our
                informants deserve? Are they really the 'Narrators of Barbarian
                History'? Are Walter Goffart and his supporters correct in denying
                their corporate identity and interpreting these works as harmless
                literature or irony, or even love stories?25 But how could it be
                otherwise when modern scholars search in Christian, classically
                educated, medieval authors for concepts and traditions which are
                supposed to mirror pre-Christian ethnic historicity, that is, 'real'
                archaic pagan life ?26"

                "These observations give us something to think about. First of all,
                heroic saga and heroic poetry are not the same. Secondly, ethnic
                traditions in early medieval texts cannot be studied as mere
                literature belonging only to the time they came to be written down.
                The methods, skills and techniques of exegesis are also required.
                Northrop Frye is highly praised, and rightly so, but in his brilliant
                book The Great Code one looks in vain for Matthew I, 1 ff., where
                Christ's threefold fourteen-generation family tree is delivered. Thus
                The Great Code's index does not contain the entry 'genealogy'. This
                one-sided approach toward an origo gentis such as the bible is
                followed by Walter Goffart with the result that his Narrators of
                Barbarian History, though an intelligent, witty, and even amusing
                book,68 misses the point because it commits the methodological sin of
                treating every text polemically as mere literature, that is, as its
                author's creation ex nihilo. Consequently, Goffart dislikes
                continuity as a whole and neglects any archaic texture, that is, all
                the prefabricated elements of tradition, which past authors (re)used
                to construct their texts. As to Goffart's argument that his
                'Narrators' are authors of politically situated and programmatic
                literature, this is no different from every other text that was ever
                written.69 Even granting Goffart were correct that Jordanes had
                composed the Getica as an ironic piece of literature and a 'love
                story', this says nothing about, let alone against, the elements from
                which Jordanes ultimately constructed his stories. Consequently, the
                statement that something is literature is no value judgement or even
                verdict, and, certainly, does not make the exegetic historian
                jobless. The genealogies composed for Theodoric the Great, Rothari,
                the Scandinavian kings or, say, Alexander III of Scotland (1249)
                start with gods or demi-gods. These genealogies are, of course,
                literature, but their message still served its purpose, that is, to
                legitimize kingship by ethnic traditions no matter how deeply rooted
                in 'genuine' oral memoriae. Or in other words, even the most radical
                travesty of founding gods and heirs presupposes the belief in their
                existence albeit euhemeristically transformed and distorted. The gods
                of the pedigrees must have originally embodied sacred realities, and
                this is true whether in the Middle Ages they are still presented as
                sacred, or demonic, as divine, or human, as power, or as aniles
                fabulae (old women's tales).70"

                Tore






                >Hi Dirk, I never received any comment regarding this post. Thoughts?
                >
                >Christensen:
                >
                >"My omission of the discussion of the archaeological discoveries in
                >what is now Poland is intentional. They are normally identified with
                >the Goths (the Wielbark culture). However, the basis for this
                >identification is Jordanes's Getica along with the texts
                >mentioned here, written by Strabo, Pliny, Tacitus, and Ptolemy. If
                >the
                >archaeologists did not find the name-related material here, they
                >would naturally not be able to attach any names of certain peoples to
                >their finds since, to my knowledge, no inscriptions have been found
                >that indicate any particular ethnicity. The archaeologists are
                >therefore unable to prove that the antique texts deal with Goths
                >(Christensen 2002:40)."
                >
                >Christensen, A.S. Cassidorus Jordanses and the History of the Goths
                >Studies in a Migration Myth. Copenhagen. Museum Tusculanum Press:
                >2002.
                >
                >Regards,
                >

                This is very interesting. Christensen is a historian and only looks
                at written sources. As there is almost no contemporary written
                sources we have to look at the archaeological evidence. The
                archaeologist can read the written sources to get a hint where to
                dig. If the written sources have any substance the archaeologists
                will find the proof they need.

                In the case of the Getica we don't know what is coming down through
                the oral tradition and what is invented by Cassiodorus and Jordanes.

                Herwig Wolfram writes "After having conquered the Romans, the Goths
                understand that their leaders are not ordinary humans but demigods,
                which is why they call them Ansis/Aesir. Do not expect to find real
                names in Theoderiks genealogy, most of them emanate from sources
                about the Getae, while the Ansis/Amal tradition is of oral Gothic
                origin. This was politically important for Theoderic in order to be
                accepted by the old Italian families.

                Some say this is all taken from litterary sources but that is not
                true. The expulsion of the witches, for example, was to be of
                Jewish-Christian origin, but since the word "halliurunnae" (witches)
                has a Gothic stem, it must be part of the original tradition."
                "Wolfram argues that the concept, that all barbarian history is
                nothing but litterature, is wrong. He feels that there is always a
                core of historical tradition hidden somewhere. He specially mentions
                Walter Goffart's "Narrators of Barbarian History" in which these
                simplifications are made."


                In recent years extensive excavations have taken place in the Vistula
                area and Elblag.
                This was presented at a symposium in Lidköing in 1992 where professor
                Jerzy Okulicz-Kozaryn, Warszawa read a paper about his latest
                findings.


                see http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/romaniron_/kulturcentrum/default.htm

                Summary page 42

                The paper was presented in German but I only have it in the Swedish
                version translated and published by Ingemar. I hope he has the
                original which I would like to include in this page.

                Afterwards there was a discussion where professor Herwig Wolfram from
                Wien was very pleased and stated that with this paper it was the
                first time he gets a view over what the Wielbark culture actually is.

                Professor Okulicz-Kozaryn was very convinced with his interpretations
                about a common Baltic culture with the center in the Elblag area. It
                is the Ember trade that is very profitable that is foundation of this
                culture.

                He writes: "The preliminary discussion of research results from the
                Weklice cemetery presented here, with an attempt to present them in a
                broader historical context shows that we are not dealing here with a
                marginal and minor area of the Wielbark Culture but with one of the
                centres of the amber coast, crucial for understanding the
                far-reaching ties between the Baltic region and various areas of the
                Roman Empire and European Barbaricum. "

                "It is difficult not to associate such a strong economical position
                of the group in question with the organization of the southward
                migrations of population. It is surprising that no existing
                publications concerning the migration of Goths and Gepidae engaged in
                such a basic comprehensive confrontation of sources."

                He has no misgivings about Gotland being a part of this.

                Tore


                --

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