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[gothic-l] Re: Arianism

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  • Tore Gannholm
    ... Dirk, We know plenty from the archaeological point of view. Take the Havor ring for example http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 5, 2003
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      >
      >Tore
      >
      >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
      >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden
      >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those areas
      >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
      >light on historical events there at that early time.

      Dirk,
      We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.

      Take the Havor ring for example
      http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm

      They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in both
      gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
      is the Goths at the Black Sea.

      In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
      largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
      that surpasses 60 meters.

      se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
      Anmerkung 11.





      >
      >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
      >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would like
      >to ask you to present this evidence.

      There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
      were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.


      >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
      >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would be
      >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
      >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -following
      >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since Scandinavian
      >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
      >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
      >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
      >Christians, even if they were Arians there.

      Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.

      Tore

      >Yet, it is clear that he
      >regarded them as pagans.
      >
      >Dirk
      >




      --
    • faltin2001
      ... Sweden ... areas ... Tore, you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a rich early iron age history. Now you come with
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 7, 2003
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > >Tore
        > >
        > >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
        > >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and
        Sweden
        > >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those
        areas
        > >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
        > >light on historical events there at that early time.
        >
        > Dirk,
        > We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.
        >

        Tore,

        you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a
        rich early iron age history. Now you come with archaeology. History
        is about names and events and history starts with written records. I
        retain my view that we know next to nothing about early iron age
        (500BC) history in Scandinavia.







        >
        > Take the Havor ring for example
        > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
        >
        > They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in
        both
        > gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
        > is the Goths at the Black Sea.



        Now you jumped some 600-700 years foreward. So far you refered to
        the 'rich early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden', but the
        Havor ring dates to about 100AD, while the Roman bronze dishes and
        objects which were found together with the Havor ring and which come
        from Italy, date to about 200AD.

        At any rate this only tells you something about trade links from
        Gotland to Italy and perhaps the Black Sea region. This does not tell
        you anything about history.






        >
        > In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
        > largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
        > that surpasses 60 meters.
        >



        Again, that is all very well, but this is not history. History begins
        with written records. There clearly was a rich culture on Gotland,
        but about its history we are almost not informed.






        > se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
        > Anmerkung 11.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
        > >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would
        like
        > >to ask you to present this evidence.
        >
        > There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
        > were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.
        >



        These trading links were between Gotland and Italy or the
        Mediterranean. We have no real record of the Ostrogoths engaging in
        trade at all. The Ostrogoths and other Germanic people who came to
        Italy in the 470s onwards were anything but professional traders. If
        anything, trade was conducted by the Romans, and they were
        Catholics.






        >
        > >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
        > >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
        be
        > >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
        > >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
        following
        > >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
        Scandinavian
        > >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
        > >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
        > >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
        > >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
        >


        > Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.



        Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
        (Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
        them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
        let his readers know.

        From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
        Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
        in 500AD in Scandinavia.


        Dirk
      • Tore Gannholm
        ... Dirk, I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it. This makes it
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 7, 2003
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >>
          >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
          >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
          >be
          >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
          >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
          >following
          >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
          >Scandinavian
          >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
          >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
          >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
          >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
          >>
          >
          >
          >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
          >
          >
          >
          >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
          >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
          >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
          >let his readers know.
          >
          >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
          >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
          >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
          >
          >Dirk
          >

          Dirk,
          I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said
          that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.

          This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.

          Tore
          --
        • faltin2001
          ... were ... would ... great ... of ... said ... Tore, can you list some of these traces of Arianism in Scandinavia, please. Dirk
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 7, 2003
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
            wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >>
            > >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there
            were
            > >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step
            would
            > >be
            > >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
            > >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
            > >following
            > >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
            > >Scandinavian
            > >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
            > >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a
            great
            > >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
            > >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
            > >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any
            of
            > >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
            > >let his readers know.
            > >
            > >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
            > >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
            > >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
            > >
            > >Dirk
            > >
            >
            > Dirk,
            > I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only
            said
            > that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.
            >
            > This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.
            >
            > Tore



            Tore,

            can you list some of these 'traces of Arianism' in Scandinavia,
            please.

            Dirk


            > --
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