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[gothic-l] Re: Arianism

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  • Hieromonk Maximos
    ... True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into Western usage in
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 3 3:49 PM
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      >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...>
      >
      >Hi again Maximos,
      >
      >I have read your text carefully and I also re-read mine. I see that we
      >both are a little unclear and so I must make a more clear definition
      >of filioque. It is true the 'que' is of Western origin mostly as the
      >original text proposed in Constantinople in 382. The decision however
      >was to exclude that 'que' and replace it with "The Father through the
      >son and the spirit". The Westerners later, as you say, replaced the
      >original meaning with the earlier proposed " The Father and -que- the
      >son through the spirit. I am sorry I misunderstood that part in your
      >writing.
      >
      >My best wishes
      >Ingemar
      >

      True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could
      have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into
      Western usage in Spain at a council held in Toledo.

      The Eastern Church has never adopted the filoque and the form we use
      is the" Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father "( only) the so-called
      " double procession" that is the proposed ontological procession, is
      specifically condemned as heresy by the Eastern Church ( this is
      clearly defined by St.Photios of Constantinople) The later idea of
      the reference to the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit from the
      Son ( as at Pentecost) is of course correct, but this is not what the
      Creed is referring to at that point in the text.

      I hope that is clearer, though theology is by its nature always a bit fuzzy.
      --

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      ... Hi Maximos, Thank you very much for your information. It is good to get information of a really professional expert on religious matters. My very best
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 3 8:36 PM
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        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...> wrote:
        > >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...>
        Hi Maximos,

        Thank you very much for your information. It is good to get
        information of a really professional expert on religious matters.

        My very best greetings
        Ingemar

        > True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could
        > have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into
        > Western usage in Spain at a council held in Toledo.
        >
        > The Eastern Church has never adopted the filoque and the form we use
        > is the" Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father "( only) the so-called
        > " double procession" that is the proposed ontological procession, is
        > specifically condemned as heresy by the Eastern Church ( this is
        > clearly defined by St.Photios of Constantinople) The later idea of
        > the reference to the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit from the
        > Son ( as at Pentecost) is of course correct, but this is not what the
        > Creed is referring to at that point in the text.
        >
        > I hope that is clearer, though theology is by its nature always a
        bit fuzzy.
        > --
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tore Gannholm
        ... Dirk, We know plenty from the archaeological point of view. Take the Havor ring for example http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 5 12:25 AM
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          >
          >Tore
          >
          >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
          >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden
          >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those areas
          >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
          >light on historical events there at that early time.

          Dirk,
          We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.

          Take the Havor ring for example
          http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm

          They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in both
          gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
          is the Goths at the Black Sea.

          In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
          largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
          that surpasses 60 meters.

          se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
          Anmerkung 11.





          >
          >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
          >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would like
          >to ask you to present this evidence.

          There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
          were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.


          >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
          >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would be
          >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
          >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -following
          >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since Scandinavian
          >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
          >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
          >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
          >Christians, even if they were Arians there.

          Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.

          Tore

          >Yet, it is clear that he
          >regarded them as pagans.
          >
          >Dirk
          >




          --
        • faltin2001
          ... Sweden ... areas ... Tore, you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a rich early iron age history. Now you come with
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 7 1:50 AM
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            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
            wrote:
            > >
            > >Tore
            > >
            > >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
            > >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and
            Sweden
            > >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those
            areas
            > >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
            > >light on historical events there at that early time.
            >
            > Dirk,
            > We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.
            >

            Tore,

            you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a
            rich early iron age history. Now you come with archaeology. History
            is about names and events and history starts with written records. I
            retain my view that we know next to nothing about early iron age
            (500BC) history in Scandinavia.







            >
            > Take the Havor ring for example
            > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
            >
            > They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in
            both
            > gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
            > is the Goths at the Black Sea.



            Now you jumped some 600-700 years foreward. So far you refered to
            the 'rich early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden', but the
            Havor ring dates to about 100AD, while the Roman bronze dishes and
            objects which were found together with the Havor ring and which come
            from Italy, date to about 200AD.

            At any rate this only tells you something about trade links from
            Gotland to Italy and perhaps the Black Sea region. This does not tell
            you anything about history.






            >
            > In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
            > largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
            > that surpasses 60 meters.
            >



            Again, that is all very well, but this is not history. History begins
            with written records. There clearly was a rich culture on Gotland,
            but about its history we are almost not informed.






            > se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
            > Anmerkung 11.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
            > >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would
            like
            > >to ask you to present this evidence.
            >
            > There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
            > were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.
            >



            These trading links were between Gotland and Italy or the
            Mediterranean. We have no real record of the Ostrogoths engaging in
            trade at all. The Ostrogoths and other Germanic people who came to
            Italy in the 470s onwards were anything but professional traders. If
            anything, trade was conducted by the Romans, and they were
            Catholics.






            >
            > >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
            > >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
            be
            > >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
            > >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
            following
            > >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
            Scandinavian
            > >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
            > >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
            > >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
            > >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
            >


            > Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.



            Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
            (Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
            them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
            let his readers know.

            From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
            Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
            in 500AD in Scandinavia.


            Dirk
          • Tore Gannholm
            ... Dirk, I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it. This makes it
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 7 2:14 AM
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >>
              >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
              >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
              >be
              >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
              >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
              >following
              >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
              >Scandinavian
              >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
              >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
              >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
              >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
              >>
              >
              >
              >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
              >
              >
              >
              >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
              >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
              >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
              >let his readers know.
              >
              >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
              >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
              >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
              >
              >Dirk
              >

              Dirk,
              I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said
              that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.

              This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.

              Tore
              --
            • faltin2001
              ... were ... would ... great ... of ... said ... Tore, can you list some of these traces of Arianism in Scandinavia, please. Dirk
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 7 4:50 AM
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                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >>
                > >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there
                were
                > >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step
                would
                > >be
                > >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                > >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                > >following
                > >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                > >Scandinavian
                > >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                > >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a
                great
                > >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                > >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                > >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any
                of
                > >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                > >let his readers know.
                > >
                > >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                > >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                > >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
                > >
                > >Dirk
                > >
                >
                > Dirk,
                > I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only
                said
                > that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.
                >
                > This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.
                >
                > Tore



                Tore,

                can you list some of these 'traces of Arianism' in Scandinavia,
                please.

                Dirk


                > --
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