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Re: Arianism

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  • faltin2001
    ... can ... very ... others ... with ... Tore I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age history. Yet, about the early iron age history
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 3, 2003
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      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
      wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >Tore,
      > >
      > >nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the
      > >end where somebody talks of Arianism in Vaestegoetaland in 500AD
      can
      > >hardly be taken seriously. But I think we had this debate before.
      > >
      > >Dirk
      > >
      >
      > Dirk,
      > Yes we have discussed this before and I know that you don't have
      very
      > high thoughts about Swedish archaeology. Fortunately there are
      others
      > on this list who can read Scandinavian and are better acquainted
      with
      > this important area.
      >
      > Admittedly sometimes archaeologists over-interpret their findings.
      > However I think Gotland and some parts of Sweden have a much richer
      > early iron age history than you would like to admit.
      > Tore
      >


      Tore

      I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
      history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden
      we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those areas
      in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
      light on historical events there at that early time.

      About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
      Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would like
      to ask you to present this evidence.

      I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
      Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would be
      to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
      tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -following
      Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since Scandinavian
      contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
      Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
      interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
      Christians, even if they were Arians there. Yet, it is clear that he
      regarded them as pagans.

      Dirk






      >
      > --
    • Hieromonk Maximos
      ... True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into Western usage in
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 3, 2003
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        >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...>
        >
        >Hi again Maximos,
        >
        >I have read your text carefully and I also re-read mine. I see that we
        >both are a little unclear and so I must make a more clear definition
        >of filioque. It is true the 'que' is of Western origin mostly as the
        >original text proposed in Constantinople in 382. The decision however
        >was to exclude that 'que' and replace it with "The Father through the
        >son and the spirit". The Westerners later, as you say, replaced the
        >original meaning with the earlier proposed " The Father and -que- the
        >son through the spirit. I am sorry I misunderstood that part in your
        >writing.
        >
        >My best wishes
        >Ingemar
        >

        True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could
        have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into
        Western usage in Spain at a council held in Toledo.

        The Eastern Church has never adopted the filoque and the form we use
        is the" Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father "( only) the so-called
        " double procession" that is the proposed ontological procession, is
        specifically condemned as heresy by the Eastern Church ( this is
        clearly defined by St.Photios of Constantinople) The later idea of
        the reference to the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit from the
        Son ( as at Pentecost) is of course correct, but this is not what the
        Creed is referring to at that point in the text.

        I hope that is clearer, though theology is by its nature always a bit fuzzy.
        --

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Ingemar Nordgren
        ... Hi Maximos, Thank you very much for your information. It is good to get information of a really professional expert on religious matters. My very best
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 3, 2003
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...> wrote:
          > >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...>
          Hi Maximos,

          Thank you very much for your information. It is good to get
          information of a really professional expert on religious matters.

          My very best greetings
          Ingemar

          > True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could
          > have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into
          > Western usage in Spain at a council held in Toledo.
          >
          > The Eastern Church has never adopted the filoque and the form we use
          > is the" Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father "( only) the so-called
          > " double procession" that is the proposed ontological procession, is
          > specifically condemned as heresy by the Eastern Church ( this is
          > clearly defined by St.Photios of Constantinople) The later idea of
          > the reference to the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit from the
          > Son ( as at Pentecost) is of course correct, but this is not what the
          > Creed is referring to at that point in the text.
          >
          > I hope that is clearer, though theology is by its nature always a
          bit fuzzy.
          > --
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tore Gannholm
          ... Dirk, We know plenty from the archaeological point of view. Take the Havor ring for example http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 5, 2003
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            >
            >Tore
            >
            >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
            >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden
            >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those areas
            >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
            >light on historical events there at that early time.

            Dirk,
            We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.

            Take the Havor ring for example
            http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm

            They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in both
            gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
            is the Goths at the Black Sea.

            In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
            largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
            that surpasses 60 meters.

            se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
            Anmerkung 11.





            >
            >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
            >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would like
            >to ask you to present this evidence.

            There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
            were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.


            >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
            >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would be
            >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
            >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -following
            >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since Scandinavian
            >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
            >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
            >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
            >Christians, even if they were Arians there.

            Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.

            Tore

            >Yet, it is clear that he
            >regarded them as pagans.
            >
            >Dirk
            >




            --
          • faltin2001
            ... Sweden ... areas ... Tore, you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a rich early iron age history. Now you come with
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 7, 2003
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
              wrote:
              > >
              > >Tore
              > >
              > >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
              > >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and
              Sweden
              > >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those
              areas
              > >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
              > >light on historical events there at that early time.
              >
              > Dirk,
              > We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.
              >

              Tore,

              you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a
              rich early iron age history. Now you come with archaeology. History
              is about names and events and history starts with written records. I
              retain my view that we know next to nothing about early iron age
              (500BC) history in Scandinavia.







              >
              > Take the Havor ring for example
              > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
              >
              > They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in
              both
              > gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
              > is the Goths at the Black Sea.



              Now you jumped some 600-700 years foreward. So far you refered to
              the 'rich early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden', but the
              Havor ring dates to about 100AD, while the Roman bronze dishes and
              objects which were found together with the Havor ring and which come
              from Italy, date to about 200AD.

              At any rate this only tells you something about trade links from
              Gotland to Italy and perhaps the Black Sea region. This does not tell
              you anything about history.






              >
              > In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
              > largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
              > that surpasses 60 meters.
              >



              Again, that is all very well, but this is not history. History begins
              with written records. There clearly was a rich culture on Gotland,
              but about its history we are almost not informed.






              > se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
              > Anmerkung 11.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > >
              > >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
              > >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would
              like
              > >to ask you to present this evidence.
              >
              > There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
              > were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.
              >



              These trading links were between Gotland and Italy or the
              Mediterranean. We have no real record of the Ostrogoths engaging in
              trade at all. The Ostrogoths and other Germanic people who came to
              Italy in the 470s onwards were anything but professional traders. If
              anything, trade was conducted by the Romans, and they were
              Catholics.






              >
              > >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
              > >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
              be
              > >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
              > >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
              following
              > >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
              Scandinavian
              > >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
              > >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
              > >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
              > >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
              >


              > Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.



              Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
              (Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
              them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
              let his readers know.

              From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
              Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
              in 500AD in Scandinavia.


              Dirk
            • Tore Gannholm
              ... Dirk, I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it. This makes it
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 7, 2003
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                >
                >
                >
                >
                >>
                >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
                >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
                >be
                >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                >following
                >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                >Scandinavian
                >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
                >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                >>
                >
                >
                >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
                >
                >
                >
                >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
                >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                >let his readers know.
                >
                >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
                >
                >Dirk
                >

                Dirk,
                I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said
                that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.

                This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.

                Tore
                --
              • faltin2001
                ... were ... would ... great ... of ... said ... Tore, can you list some of these traces of Arianism in Scandinavia, please. Dirk
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 7, 2003
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                  wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >>
                  > >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there
                  were
                  > >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step
                  would
                  > >be
                  > >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                  > >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                  > >following
                  > >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                  > >Scandinavian
                  > >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                  > >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a
                  great
                  > >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                  > >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                  > >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any
                  of
                  > >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                  > >let his readers know.
                  > >
                  > >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                  > >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                  > >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
                  > >
                  > >Dirk
                  > >
                  >
                  > Dirk,
                  > I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only
                  said
                  > that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.
                  >
                  > This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.
                  >
                  > Tore



                  Tore,

                  can you list some of these 'traces of Arianism' in Scandinavia,
                  please.

                  Dirk


                  > --
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