Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Arianism

Expand Messages
  • Ingemar Nordgren
    Hi Tore, An very interesting book, indeed. You really made your point showing the intensity in the controversy between Nicaeneans and Arians. Here we have the
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 2 5:08 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Tore,

      An very interesting book, indeed. You really made your point showing
      the intensity in the controversy between Nicaeneans and Arians. Here
      we have the story told by a convinced and evidently strongly beleiving
      Nicaenean, who adores the quite crooked Athanasius and hates Eusebius
      and his followers. He presents good evidence for my further conclusion
      the Gnostics were part of the background and of the old Eastern
      trinity of triadic origin. He however has never succeded in
      understanding the subleties of Arius, and since he, as he self
      admits, detests logics all his opinions are based on a blind belief. A
      funny thing is that he declares Sabellius a heretics, but later
      himself uses a twisted version of Sabellius true statements to
      justify the Nicaenean definition of Trinity. It is however correct
      that Arius was depending on the background mentioned, but he was far
      closer to Sabellius than this story claims. He indeed also confirms
      that Antioch was an Arian stronghold. It evidently is long time ago
      Christianity ceased to be a religion and just became an organisation
      ruled by political decisions on diverse councils.
      I find your site a very useful one, indeed.

      Best wishes
      Ingemar


      > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/extracts_/arianism/default.htm
    • faltin2001
      ... and ... The ... interpretation ... Tore, nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the end where somebody talks of Arianism in
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 3 1:41 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
        wrote:
        > >
        > > > During the 4th century there were big fights between the Arian
        and
        > >> the Ortodox churches (The Catholic line I think came later)
        > >>
        > >> During some time the Arian line was the official Roman line.
        > >>
        > >> The difference was documented in the Church meeting in Nicea 325
        > >>
        > >> Tore
        > >> --
        > >
        > >
        > >Catholic and Orthodox are in this period one and the same thing.
        The
        > >schism between Catholicism and Orthodoxy was only in the 11th
        > >century. What is important to note that the practical
        interpretation
        > >of Catholicism is basically identical to Arianism. At the time of
        > >Nicea, the Arian faction lost itself in unimportant detail. In
        > >reality both groups had the same perception only they defined it
        > >slightly differently.
        > >
        > >Dirk
        > >
        >
        > Dirk,
        > You can read about arianism on
        > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/extracts_/arianism/default.htm
        >
        >
        > Tore
        > --


        Tore,

        nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the
        end where somebody talks of Arianism in Vaestegoetaland in 500AD can
        hardly be taken seriously. But I think we had this debate before.

        Dirk
      • Tore Gannholm
        ... Dirk, Yes we have discussed this before and I know that you don t have very high thoughts about Swedish archaeology. Fortunately there are others on this
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 3 2:54 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          >
          >
          >Tore,
          >
          >nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the
          >end where somebody talks of Arianism in Vaestegoetaland in 500AD can
          >hardly be taken seriously. But I think we had this debate before.
          >
          >Dirk
          >

          Dirk,
          Yes we have discussed this before and I know that you don't have very
          high thoughts about Swedish archaeology. Fortunately there are others
          on this list who can read Scandinavian and are better acquainted with
          this important area.

          Admittedly sometimes archaeologists over-interpret their findings.
          However I think Gotland and some parts of Sweden have a much richer
          early iron age history than you would like to admit.
          Tore


          --
        • faltin2001
          ... can ... very ... others ... with ... Tore I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age history. Yet, about the early iron age history
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 3 6:29 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
            wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >Tore,
            > >
            > >nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the
            > >end where somebody talks of Arianism in Vaestegoetaland in 500AD
            can
            > >hardly be taken seriously. But I think we had this debate before.
            > >
            > >Dirk
            > >
            >
            > Dirk,
            > Yes we have discussed this before and I know that you don't have
            very
            > high thoughts about Swedish archaeology. Fortunately there are
            others
            > on this list who can read Scandinavian and are better acquainted
            with
            > this important area.
            >
            > Admittedly sometimes archaeologists over-interpret their findings.
            > However I think Gotland and some parts of Sweden have a much richer
            > early iron age history than you would like to admit.
            > Tore
            >


            Tore

            I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
            history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden
            we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those areas
            in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
            light on historical events there at that early time.

            About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
            Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would like
            to ask you to present this evidence.

            I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
            Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would be
            to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
            tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -following
            Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since Scandinavian
            contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
            Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
            interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
            Christians, even if they were Arians there. Yet, it is clear that he
            regarded them as pagans.

            Dirk






            >
            > --
          • Hieromonk Maximos
            ... True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into Western usage in
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 3 3:49 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...>
              >
              >Hi again Maximos,
              >
              >I have read your text carefully and I also re-read mine. I see that we
              >both are a little unclear and so I must make a more clear definition
              >of filioque. It is true the 'que' is of Western origin mostly as the
              >original text proposed in Constantinople in 382. The decision however
              >was to exclude that 'que' and replace it with "The Father through the
              >son and the spirit". The Westerners later, as you say, replaced the
              >original meaning with the earlier proposed " The Father and -que- the
              >son through the spirit. I am sorry I misunderstood that part in your
              >writing.
              >
              >My best wishes
              >Ingemar
              >

              True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could
              have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into
              Western usage in Spain at a council held in Toledo.

              The Eastern Church has never adopted the filoque and the form we use
              is the" Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father "( only) the so-called
              " double procession" that is the proposed ontological procession, is
              specifically condemned as heresy by the Eastern Church ( this is
              clearly defined by St.Photios of Constantinople) The later idea of
              the reference to the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit from the
              Son ( as at Pentecost) is of course correct, but this is not what the
              Creed is referring to at that point in the text.

              I hope that is clearer, though theology is by its nature always a bit fuzzy.
              --

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Ingemar Nordgren
              ... Hi Maximos, Thank you very much for your information. It is good to get information of a really professional expert on religious matters. My very best
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 3 8:36 PM
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...> wrote:
                > >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...>
                Hi Maximos,

                Thank you very much for your information. It is good to get
                information of a really professional expert on religious matters.

                My very best greetings
                Ingemar

                > True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could
                > have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into
                > Western usage in Spain at a council held in Toledo.
                >
                > The Eastern Church has never adopted the filoque and the form we use
                > is the" Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father "( only) the so-called
                > " double procession" that is the proposed ontological procession, is
                > specifically condemned as heresy by the Eastern Church ( this is
                > clearly defined by St.Photios of Constantinople) The later idea of
                > the reference to the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit from the
                > Son ( as at Pentecost) is of course correct, but this is not what the
                > Creed is referring to at that point in the text.
                >
                > I hope that is clearer, though theology is by its nature always a
                bit fuzzy.
                > --
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tore Gannholm
                ... Dirk, We know plenty from the archaeological point of view. Take the Havor ring for example http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 5 12:25 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  >
                  >Tore
                  >
                  >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
                  >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden
                  >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those areas
                  >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
                  >light on historical events there at that early time.

                  Dirk,
                  We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.

                  Take the Havor ring for example
                  http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm

                  They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in both
                  gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
                  is the Goths at the Black Sea.

                  In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
                  largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
                  that surpasses 60 meters.

                  se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
                  Anmerkung 11.





                  >
                  >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
                  >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would like
                  >to ask you to present this evidence.

                  There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
                  were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.


                  >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
                  >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would be
                  >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                  >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -following
                  >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since Scandinavian
                  >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                  >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
                  >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                  >Christians, even if they were Arians there.

                  Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.

                  Tore

                  >Yet, it is clear that he
                  >regarded them as pagans.
                  >
                  >Dirk
                  >




                  --
                • faltin2001
                  ... Sweden ... areas ... Tore, you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a rich early iron age history. Now you come with
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 7 1:50 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                    wrote:
                    > >
                    > >Tore
                    > >
                    > >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
                    > >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and
                    Sweden
                    > >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those
                    areas
                    > >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
                    > >light on historical events there at that early time.
                    >
                    > Dirk,
                    > We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.
                    >

                    Tore,

                    you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a
                    rich early iron age history. Now you come with archaeology. History
                    is about names and events and history starts with written records. I
                    retain my view that we know next to nothing about early iron age
                    (500BC) history in Scandinavia.







                    >
                    > Take the Havor ring for example
                    > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
                    >
                    > They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in
                    both
                    > gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
                    > is the Goths at the Black Sea.



                    Now you jumped some 600-700 years foreward. So far you refered to
                    the 'rich early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden', but the
                    Havor ring dates to about 100AD, while the Roman bronze dishes and
                    objects which were found together with the Havor ring and which come
                    from Italy, date to about 200AD.

                    At any rate this only tells you something about trade links from
                    Gotland to Italy and perhaps the Black Sea region. This does not tell
                    you anything about history.






                    >
                    > In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
                    > largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
                    > that surpasses 60 meters.
                    >



                    Again, that is all very well, but this is not history. History begins
                    with written records. There clearly was a rich culture on Gotland,
                    but about its history we are almost not informed.






                    > se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
                    > Anmerkung 11.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
                    > >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would
                    like
                    > >to ask you to present this evidence.
                    >
                    > There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
                    > were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.
                    >



                    These trading links were between Gotland and Italy or the
                    Mediterranean. We have no real record of the Ostrogoths engaging in
                    trade at all. The Ostrogoths and other Germanic people who came to
                    Italy in the 470s onwards were anything but professional traders. If
                    anything, trade was conducted by the Romans, and they were
                    Catholics.






                    >
                    > >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
                    > >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
                    be
                    > >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                    > >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                    following
                    > >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                    Scandinavian
                    > >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                    > >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
                    > >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                    > >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                    >


                    > Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.



                    Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                    (Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
                    them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                    let his readers know.

                    From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                    Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                    in 500AD in Scandinavia.


                    Dirk
                  • Tore Gannholm
                    ... Dirk, I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it. This makes it
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 7 2:14 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >>
                      >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
                      >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
                      >be
                      >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                      >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                      >following
                      >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                      >Scandinavian
                      >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                      >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
                      >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                      >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                      >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
                      >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                      >let his readers know.
                      >
                      >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                      >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                      >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
                      >
                      >Dirk
                      >

                      Dirk,
                      I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said
                      that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.

                      This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.

                      Tore
                      --
                    • faltin2001
                      ... were ... would ... great ... of ... said ... Tore, can you list some of these traces of Arianism in Scandinavia, please. Dirk
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 7 4:50 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                        wrote:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >>
                        > >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there
                        were
                        > >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step
                        would
                        > >be
                        > >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                        > >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                        > >following
                        > >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                        > >Scandinavian
                        > >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                        > >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a
                        great
                        > >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                        > >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                        > >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any
                        of
                        > >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                        > >let his readers know.
                        > >
                        > >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                        > >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                        > >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
                        > >
                        > >Dirk
                        > >
                        >
                        > Dirk,
                        > I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only
                        said
                        > that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.
                        >
                        > This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.
                        >
                        > Tore



                        Tore,

                        can you list some of these 'traces of Arianism' in Scandinavia,
                        please.

                        Dirk


                        > --
                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.