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Re: [gothic-l] Re: GUTANI WIHAILAG

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  • Terje Ellefsen
    Hi The word Goth is not Gothic, they would say something like: sa guta for the goth . However, texts about Goths weren t written in Gothic, but other
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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      Hi

      The word "Goth" is not Gothic, they would say something like: "sa guta" for
      "the goth". However, texts about Goths weren't written in Gothic, but other
      languages like Latin.

      Terje


      >From: "Ravi Chaudhary" <ravichaudhary2000@...>
      >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [gothic-l] Re: GUTANI WIHAILAG
      >Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:52:53 -0000
      >
      >To both of you
      >
      >How do one derive Goth from Gut- ane.?
      >
      >Ravi
      >
      >
      >
      >-- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
      >wrote:
      > > Hi, Dirk,
      > >
      > > I don't dispute the reading 'gutane', I just mean that, based on
      >what
      > > we know about Wulfila's Gothic language, 'gutane' means rather 'of
      > > the Goths' than 'good' (which would be goths, goda-). jer 'year' in
      > > Gothic is neutrum, like the German 'Jahr', and if you wish to
      > > somebody 'ein gutes Jahr', this would be in Gothic 'godata jer',
      >and
      > > not 'gutane jer'. 'gutane jer' could mean only 'year of the Goths'
      > > (?!)
      > >
      > > Francisc
      > >
      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
      > > > Hi Francisc,
      > > >
      > > > I have no linguistic knowledge and rely only on secondary
      >sources.
      > > > The reading 'GUTANE JER WEIH HAILAG' I found in a recent article
      >by
      > > > A. Schwarcs "Cult and Religion among the Tervingi and the
      >Visigoths
      > > > and their conversion to Christianity" in 'The Visigoths from the
      > > > Migration to the 7th Century: An Ethnographic Perspective', Ed.
      >P.
      > > > Heather, 2000.
      > > >
      > > > p. (page numbers not on my copy) "A recent study one by Hermann
      > > > Reichert with a thorough scrutiny of th eoriginal in Bucarest in
      > > 1992
      > > > gives as the most plausible reading of this runic
      > > inscription "gutane
      > > > jer weih hailag", a blessing for a fruitful and prosperous
      >year..."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The Runenprojekt of the University of Kiel in Germany also
      >records
      > > > the following alternative interpretations:
      > > >
      > > > Gutani¿ w³hhailag
      > > > sacrosanctum of gothic women/female warriors(?)
      > > > Antonsen, Elmer H. 1975
      > > >
      > > > Gutaniom hailag
      > > > dedicated to the Gothic Mothers (=female guardian spirits of the
      > > > Goths)
      > > > Krogmann, Willy. 1978
      > > >
      > > > (G)ut(an³) (¿) (1Z) (w³)hh(a)i(l)ag ...
      > > > the Goths' protector (=king) (1Z) [be/is] sacrosanct ...
      > > > Isb&%escu, Mihai. 1960
      > > >
      > > > guttani hailag wiko
      > > > holy song of the Goths - Wiko (=rota of the great cult of the
      > > tribe)
      > > > Gutenbrunner, Siegfried. 1964
      > > >
      > > > Gutani¿ w³h hailag
      > > > the holy relic of gothic priestesses (=the [altar] ring)
      > > > Johnsen, Ingrid Sanness., 1971
      > > >
      > > > Gutan³ (¿) [1Z] (w³)h hailag
      > > > the Goths' hereditary property - (1Z) - consecrated [and]
      > > inviolable
      > > > Krause, Wolfgang, Herbert Jankuhn.
      > > > 1966
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > What is clear from this list is that the reading and the
      > > translation
      > > > is rather uncertain. However, in contrast to Reichert's latest
      > > study
      > > > not all of these translations above will have been based on a
      >close
      > > > analysis of the original ring, so that some of them likely suffer
      > > > from a misreading of the runes.
      > > >
      > > > cheers
      > > > Dirk
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
      > > <fericzobor@y...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > Hi, Dirk,
      > > > >
      > > > > I write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG' because it is in Gothic and because
      > > it's
      > > > > from my country, Romania. In fact, the runes read GUTANI?
      > > WIHAILAG,
      > > > > where ? is for the illegible rune at the place of the fracture
      >of
      > > > the
      > > > > necklace. I know that there are still controversies regarding
      >the
      > > > > interpretation of this text, but I personally think that it is
      > > not
      > > > > very plausible the interpretation of GUTANI as 'gutane'
      >= 'good'.
      > > > > First: indeed, in German 'gut' = 'good', but in Gothic 'good'
      >is
      > > > > goths/goda-, so the genitive plural, weak adjectival
      >declension,
      > > > > would be 'godane', not 'gutane'.
      > > > > Second: it doesn't make sense in this context to put the
      > > > > adjective 'good' in genitive plural. But the substantive "Goth"
      > > in
      > > > > genitive plural - "of the Goths" is more meaningful.
      > > > > So I still prefer to consider that the most plausible
      > > > interpretation
      > > > > of GUTANI is 'gutane' = 'of the Goths'.
      > > > >
      > > > > With best regards,
      > > > > Francisc
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
      > > > > > ...
      > > > > > Hi Francisc,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I see that you write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG'. Did you know that the
      > > > > latest
      > > > > > investigation on the original ring suggests that the best
      > > reading
      > > > > of
      > > > > > the inscription is 'gutane jer weih hailag', which is a
      > > blessing
      > > > > for
      > > > > > a good year, with 'gutane' meaning 'good' . Hence, the name
      >of
      > > > the
      > > > > > Goths is probably not on the ring.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Cheers
      > > > > > Dirk
      >

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    • Егоров Владимир
      To Francisc Czobor Hi, Francisc! I dare add a couple of comments to your translations of the word Goth / Gothic in diverse languages, specifically
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 3 1:36 AM
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        To Francisc Czobor

        Hi, Francisc!

        I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
        of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
        specifically regarding Russian.
        (Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
        to see some spellings properly.)

        >>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski

        1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
        a) 'готский' [gotskij] that means general belonging
        or relation to the Goths;
        b) 'готический' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
        concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
        architecture and type.

        2. Old Russian knows the Goths as 'гъты'
        (attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
        with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
        I am at a loss here for a transcription.
        Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
        while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
        though a sound like [o] is also probable.

        Best regards,

        Vladimir
      • Tore Gannholm
        ... Hi! Are you referring to the treaties between Gotland and Novgorod 1189 and between Gotland and Smolensk 1229. Here it is the Gotlandic coast. Gutniska
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 3 3:05 AM
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          >To Francisc Czobor
          >
          >Hi, Francisc!
          >
          >I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
          >of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
          >specifically regarding Russian.
          >(Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
          > to see some spellings properly.)
          >
          >>>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski
          >
          >1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
          >a) '???????' [gotskij] that means general belonging
          > or relation to the Goths;
          >b) '??????????' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
          > concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
          > architecture and type.
          >
          >2. Old Russian knows the Goths as '????'
          >(attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
          > with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
          >I am at a loss here for a transcription.
          >Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
          >while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
          >though a sound like [o] is also probable.
          >
          >Best regards,
          >
          >Vladimir
          >


          Hi!
          Are you referring to the treaties between Gotland and Novgorod 1189
          and between Gotland and Smolensk 1229. Here it is the Gotlandic
          coast. "Gutniska kusten".

          se http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/gutagard/default.htm

          Tore
          --
        • Francisc Czobor
          Hi, Vladimir Thank you very much for the correction. I suspected that the adjective goticheskij refers rather to the gothic architectural style than to the
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 3 4:39 AM
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            Hi, Vladimir

            Thank you very much for the correction. I suspected that the
            adjective "goticheskij" refers rather to the "gothic" architectural
            style than to the East-Germanic Goths, but I was not sure.

            With best regards,
            Francisc

            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
            > To Francisc Czobor
            >
            > Hi, Francisc!
            >
            > I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
            > of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
            > specifically regarding Russian.
            > (Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
            > to see some spellings properly.)
            >
            > >>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski
            >
            > 1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
            > a) 'ÇÏÔÓËÉÊ' [gotskij] that means general belonging
            > or relation to the Goths;
            > b) 'ÇÏÔÉÞÅÓËÉÊ' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
            > concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
            > architecture and type.
            >
            > 2. Old Russian knows the Goths as 'ÇßÔÙ'
            > (attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
            > with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
            > I am at a loss here for a transcription.
            > Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
            > while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
            > though a sound like [o] is also probable.
            >
            > Best regards,
            >
            > Vladimir
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