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[gothic-l] Re: Arianism

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  • Tore Gannholm
    ... Dirk, You can read about arianism on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/extracts_/arianism/default.htm Tore --
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 2 8:46 AM
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      >
      > > During the 4th century there were big fights between the Arian and
      >> the Ortodox churches (The Catholic line I think came later)
      >>
      >> During some time the Arian line was the official Roman line.
      >>
      >> The difference was documented in the Church meeting in Nicea 325
      >>
      >> Tore
      >> --
      >
      >
      >Catholic and Orthodox are in this period one and the same thing. The
      >schism between Catholicism and Orthodoxy was only in the 11th
      >century. What is important to note that the practical interpretation
      >of Catholicism is basically identical to Arianism. At the time of
      >Nicea, the Arian faction lost itself in unimportant detail. In
      >reality both groups had the same perception only they defined it
      >slightly differently.
      >
      >Dirk
      >

      Dirk,
      You can read about arianism on
      http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/extracts_/arianism/default.htm


      Tore
      --
    • Ingemar Nordgren
      Hi Tore, An very interesting book, indeed. You really made your point showing the intensity in the controversy between Nicaeneans and Arians. Here we have the
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 2 5:08 PM
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        Hi Tore,

        An very interesting book, indeed. You really made your point showing
        the intensity in the controversy between Nicaeneans and Arians. Here
        we have the story told by a convinced and evidently strongly beleiving
        Nicaenean, who adores the quite crooked Athanasius and hates Eusebius
        and his followers. He presents good evidence for my further conclusion
        the Gnostics were part of the background and of the old Eastern
        trinity of triadic origin. He however has never succeded in
        understanding the subleties of Arius, and since he, as he self
        admits, detests logics all his opinions are based on a blind belief. A
        funny thing is that he declares Sabellius a heretics, but later
        himself uses a twisted version of Sabellius true statements to
        justify the Nicaenean definition of Trinity. It is however correct
        that Arius was depending on the background mentioned, but he was far
        closer to Sabellius than this story claims. He indeed also confirms
        that Antioch was an Arian stronghold. It evidently is long time ago
        Christianity ceased to be a religion and just became an organisation
        ruled by political decisions on diverse councils.
        I find your site a very useful one, indeed.

        Best wishes
        Ingemar


        > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/extracts_/arianism/default.htm
      • faltin2001
        ... and ... The ... interpretation ... Tore, nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the end where somebody talks of Arianism in
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 3 1:41 AM
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          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
          wrote:
          > >
          > > > During the 4th century there were big fights between the Arian
          and
          > >> the Ortodox churches (The Catholic line I think came later)
          > >>
          > >> During some time the Arian line was the official Roman line.
          > >>
          > >> The difference was documented in the Church meeting in Nicea 325
          > >>
          > >> Tore
          > >> --
          > >
          > >
          > >Catholic and Orthodox are in this period one and the same thing.
          The
          > >schism between Catholicism and Orthodoxy was only in the 11th
          > >century. What is important to note that the practical
          interpretation
          > >of Catholicism is basically identical to Arianism. At the time of
          > >Nicea, the Arian faction lost itself in unimportant detail. In
          > >reality both groups had the same perception only they defined it
          > >slightly differently.
          > >
          > >Dirk
          > >
          >
          > Dirk,
          > You can read about arianism on
          > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/extracts_/arianism/default.htm
          >
          >
          > Tore
          > --


          Tore,

          nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the
          end where somebody talks of Arianism in Vaestegoetaland in 500AD can
          hardly be taken seriously. But I think we had this debate before.

          Dirk
        • Tore Gannholm
          ... Dirk, Yes we have discussed this before and I know that you don t have very high thoughts about Swedish archaeology. Fortunately there are others on this
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 3 2:54 AM
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            >
            >
            >Tore,
            >
            >nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the
            >end where somebody talks of Arianism in Vaestegoetaland in 500AD can
            >hardly be taken seriously. But I think we had this debate before.
            >
            >Dirk
            >

            Dirk,
            Yes we have discussed this before and I know that you don't have very
            high thoughts about Swedish archaeology. Fortunately there are others
            on this list who can read Scandinavian and are better acquainted with
            this important area.

            Admittedly sometimes archaeologists over-interpret their findings.
            However I think Gotland and some parts of Sweden have a much richer
            early iron age history than you would like to admit.
            Tore


            --
          • faltin2001
            ... can ... very ... others ... with ... Tore I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age history. Yet, about the early iron age history
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 3 6:29 AM
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              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
              wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >Tore,
              > >
              > >nice collection. I had a brief look, however, some comments at the
              > >end where somebody talks of Arianism in Vaestegoetaland in 500AD
              can
              > >hardly be taken seriously. But I think we had this debate before.
              > >
              > >Dirk
              > >
              >
              > Dirk,
              > Yes we have discussed this before and I know that you don't have
              very
              > high thoughts about Swedish archaeology. Fortunately there are
              others
              > on this list who can read Scandinavian and are better acquainted
              with
              > this important area.
              >
              > Admittedly sometimes archaeologists over-interpret their findings.
              > However I think Gotland and some parts of Sweden have a much richer
              > early iron age history than you would like to admit.
              > Tore
              >


              Tore

              I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
              history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden
              we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those areas
              in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
              light on historical events there at that early time.

              About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
              Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would like
              to ask you to present this evidence.

              I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
              Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would be
              to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
              tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -following
              Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since Scandinavian
              contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
              Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
              interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
              Christians, even if they were Arians there. Yet, it is clear that he
              regarded them as pagans.

              Dirk






              >
              > --
            • Hieromonk Maximos
              ... True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into Western usage in
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 3 3:49 PM
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                >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...>
                >
                >Hi again Maximos,
                >
                >I have read your text carefully and I also re-read mine. I see that we
                >both are a little unclear and so I must make a more clear definition
                >of filioque. It is true the 'que' is of Western origin mostly as the
                >original text proposed in Constantinople in 382. The decision however
                >was to exclude that 'que' and replace it with "The Father through the
                >son and the spirit". The Westerners later, as you say, replaced the
                >original meaning with the earlier proposed " The Father and -que- the
                >son through the spirit. I am sorry I misunderstood that part in your
                >writing.
                >
                >My best wishes
                >Ingemar
                >

                True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could
                have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into
                Western usage in Spain at a council held in Toledo.

                The Eastern Church has never adopted the filoque and the form we use
                is the" Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father "( only) the so-called
                " double procession" that is the proposed ontological procession, is
                specifically condemned as heresy by the Eastern Church ( this is
                clearly defined by St.Photios of Constantinople) The later idea of
                the reference to the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit from the
                Son ( as at Pentecost) is of course correct, but this is not what the
                Creed is referring to at that point in the text.

                I hope that is clearer, though theology is by its nature always a bit fuzzy.
                --

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Ingemar Nordgren
                ... Hi Maximos, Thank you very much for your information. It is good to get information of a really professional expert on religious matters. My very best
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 3 8:36 PM
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...> wrote:
                  > >--- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Hieromonk Maximos <frmaximos@m...>
                  Hi Maximos,

                  Thank you very much for your information. It is good to get
                  information of a really professional expert on religious matters.

                  My very best greetings
                  Ingemar

                  > True, I think we were perhaps a little less precise then we could
                  > have been. I should have said, that the filoque was introduced into
                  > Western usage in Spain at a council held in Toledo.
                  >
                  > The Eastern Church has never adopted the filoque and the form we use
                  > is the" Holy Spirit proceedeth from the Father "( only) the so-called
                  > " double procession" that is the proposed ontological procession, is
                  > specifically condemned as heresy by the Eastern Church ( this is
                  > clearly defined by St.Photios of Constantinople) The later idea of
                  > the reference to the temporal procession of the Holy Spirit from the
                  > Son ( as at Pentecost) is of course correct, but this is not what the
                  > Creed is referring to at that point in the text.
                  >
                  > I hope that is clearer, though theology is by its nature always a
                  bit fuzzy.
                  > --
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tore Gannholm
                  ... Dirk, We know plenty from the archaeological point of view. Take the Havor ring for example http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 5 12:25 AM
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                    >
                    >Tore
                    >
                    >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
                    >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden
                    >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those areas
                    >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
                    >light on historical events there at that early time.

                    Dirk,
                    We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.

                    Take the Havor ring for example
                    http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm

                    They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in both
                    gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
                    is the Goths at the Black Sea.

                    In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
                    largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
                    that surpasses 60 meters.

                    se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
                    Anmerkung 11.





                    >
                    >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
                    >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would like
                    >to ask you to present this evidence.

                    There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
                    were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.


                    >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
                    >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would be
                    >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                    >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -following
                    >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since Scandinavian
                    >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                    >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
                    >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                    >Christians, even if they were Arians there.

                    Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.

                    Tore

                    >Yet, it is clear that he
                    >regarded them as pagans.
                    >
                    >Dirk
                    >




                    --
                  • faltin2001
                    ... Sweden ... areas ... Tore, you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a rich early iron age history. Now you come with
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 7 1:50 AM
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                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                      wrote:
                      > >
                      > >Tore
                      > >
                      > >I never denied that Gotland and Sweden have a rich early iron age
                      > >history. Yet, about the early iron age history of Gotland and
                      Sweden
                      > >we know practically nothing. The early iron age starts in those
                      areas
                      > >in around 500BC, and no historical sources are available to shed
                      > >light on historical events there at that early time.
                      >
                      > Dirk,
                      > We know plenty from the archaeological point of view.
                      >

                      Tore,

                      you just wrongly accused me of denying that Sweden and Gotland have a
                      rich early iron age history. Now you come with archaeology. History
                      is about names and events and history starts with written records. I
                      retain my view that we know next to nothing about early iron age
                      (500BC) history in Scandinavia.







                      >
                      > Take the Havor ring for example
                      > http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/halsring/default.htm
                      >
                      > They were very skilled metal workers and there is plenty made in
                      both
                      > gold and silver. The closet from where they could have learned that
                      > is the Goths at the Black Sea.



                      Now you jumped some 600-700 years foreward. So far you refered to
                      the 'rich early iron age history of Gotland and Sweden', but the
                      Havor ring dates to about 100AD, while the Roman bronze dishes and
                      objects which were found together with the Havor ring and which come
                      from Italy, date to about 200AD.

                      At any rate this only tells you something about trade links from
                      Gotland to Italy and perhaps the Black Sea region. This does not tell
                      you anything about history.






                      >
                      > In Gotland we have about 1500 buildings from Roman Iron Age, the
                      > largest is 67x11 meters. There are plenty of houses from that time
                      > that surpasses 60 meters.
                      >



                      Again, that is all very well, but this is not history. History begins
                      with written records. There clearly was a rich culture on Gotland,
                      but about its history we are almost not informed.






                      > se also http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/thule/default.htm
                      > Anmerkung 11.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > >
                      > >About Arianism, I have not seen any evidence for the presence of
                      > >Arianism in 6th century Sweden. Since you read Swedish, I would
                      like
                      > >to ask you to present this evidence.
                      >
                      > There were very close trading links with the Goths, also when they
                      > were in Italy. The archaeological finds show that.
                      >



                      These trading links were between Gotland and Italy or the
                      Mediterranean. We have no real record of the Ostrogoths engaging in
                      trade at all. The Ostrogoths and other Germanic people who came to
                      Italy in the 470s onwards were anything but professional traders. If
                      anything, trade was conducted by the Romans, and they were
                      Catholics.






                      >
                      > >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
                      > >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
                      be
                      > >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                      > >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                      following
                      > >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                      Scandinavian
                      > >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                      > >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
                      > >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                      > >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                      >


                      > Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.



                      Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                      (Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
                      them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                      let his readers know.

                      From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                      Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                      in 500AD in Scandinavia.


                      Dirk
                    • Tore Gannholm
                      ... Dirk, I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it. This makes it
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 7 2:14 AM
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                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >>
                        >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there were
                        >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step would
                        >be
                        >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                        >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                        >following
                        >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                        >Scandinavian
                        >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                        >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a great
                        >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                        >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                        >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any of
                        >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                        >let his readers know.
                        >
                        >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                        >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                        >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
                        >
                        >Dirk
                        >

                        Dirk,
                        I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only said
                        that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.

                        This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.

                        Tore
                        --
                      • faltin2001
                        ... were ... would ... great ... of ... said ... Tore, can you list some of these traces of Arianism in Scandinavia, please. Dirk
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 7 4:50 AM
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                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...>
                          wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>
                          > >> >I suppose the first step would be to demonstrate that there
                          were
                          > >> >Christian grave yards in Sweden in 500AD and the second step
                          would
                          > >be
                          > >> >to show that these were Arian Christians. If any grave with
                          > >> >tentatively Christian lay-out dated to post 550AD it would -
                          > >following
                          > >> >Brigit Arrhenius- be better regarded as Catholic, since
                          > >Scandinavian
                          > >> >contacts shifted toward the Frankish realm at that point.
                          > >> >Alternatively, 6th century authors like Procopius, who took a
                          great
                          > >> >interest in Thule, would surely have reported the presence of
                          > >> >Christians, even if they were Arians there.
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >> Procopius only had knowledge of the Eruls.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >Well, he provides a lengthy description of the people in Thule
                          > >(Scandinavia), about their habits, names, living areas etc. If any
                          of
                          > >them would have been Christians of any form or shape, he would have
                          > >let his readers know.
                          > >
                          > >From your reply, I must conclude that despite reading the
                          > >Scandinavian sources in original, you have no evidence for Arianism
                          > >in 500AD in Scandinavia.
                          > >
                          > >Dirk
                          > >
                          >
                          > Dirk,
                          > I have not promoted the idea of Arianism in Scandinavia. I only
                          said
                          > that certain archaeologists have detected traces of it.
                          >
                          > This makes it interesting to continue the study of these traces.
                          >
                          > Tore



                          Tore,

                          can you list some of these 'traces of Arianism' in Scandinavia,
                          please.

                          Dirk


                          > --
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