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Re: [gothic-l] Re: GUTANI WIHAILAG

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  • Terje Ellefsen
    Hi The word Goth is not Gothic, they would say something like: sa guta for the goth . However, texts about Goths weren t written in Gothic, but other
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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      Hi

      The word "Goth" is not Gothic, they would say something like: "sa guta" for
      "the goth". However, texts about Goths weren't written in Gothic, but other
      languages like Latin.

      Terje


      >From: "Ravi Chaudhary" <ravichaudhary2000@...>
      >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [gothic-l] Re: GUTANI WIHAILAG
      >Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:52:53 -0000
      >
      >To both of you
      >
      >How do one derive Goth from Gut- ane.?
      >
      >Ravi
      >
      >
      >
      >-- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
      >wrote:
      > > Hi, Dirk,
      > >
      > > I don't dispute the reading 'gutane', I just mean that, based on
      >what
      > > we know about Wulfila's Gothic language, 'gutane' means rather 'of
      > > the Goths' than 'good' (which would be goths, goda-). jer 'year' in
      > > Gothic is neutrum, like the German 'Jahr', and if you wish to
      > > somebody 'ein gutes Jahr', this would be in Gothic 'godata jer',
      >and
      > > not 'gutane jer'. 'gutane jer' could mean only 'year of the Goths'
      > > (?!)
      > >
      > > Francisc
      > >
      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
      > > > Hi Francisc,
      > > >
      > > > I have no linguistic knowledge and rely only on secondary
      >sources.
      > > > The reading 'GUTANE JER WEIH HAILAG' I found in a recent article
      >by
      > > > A. Schwarcs "Cult and Religion among the Tervingi and the
      >Visigoths
      > > > and their conversion to Christianity" in 'The Visigoths from the
      > > > Migration to the 7th Century: An Ethnographic Perspective', Ed.
      >P.
      > > > Heather, 2000.
      > > >
      > > > p. (page numbers not on my copy) "A recent study one by Hermann
      > > > Reichert with a thorough scrutiny of th eoriginal in Bucarest in
      > > 1992
      > > > gives as the most plausible reading of this runic
      > > inscription "gutane
      > > > jer weih hailag", a blessing for a fruitful and prosperous
      >year..."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The Runenprojekt of the University of Kiel in Germany also
      >records
      > > > the following alternative interpretations:
      > > >
      > > > Gutani¿ w³hhailag
      > > > sacrosanctum of gothic women/female warriors(?)
      > > > Antonsen, Elmer H. 1975
      > > >
      > > > Gutaniom hailag
      > > > dedicated to the Gothic Mothers (=female guardian spirits of the
      > > > Goths)
      > > > Krogmann, Willy. 1978
      > > >
      > > > (G)ut(an³) (¿) (1Z) (w³)hh(a)i(l)ag ...
      > > > the Goths' protector (=king) (1Z) [be/is] sacrosanct ...
      > > > Isb&%escu, Mihai. 1960
      > > >
      > > > guttani hailag wiko
      > > > holy song of the Goths - Wiko (=rota of the great cult of the
      > > tribe)
      > > > Gutenbrunner, Siegfried. 1964
      > > >
      > > > Gutani¿ w³h hailag
      > > > the holy relic of gothic priestesses (=the [altar] ring)
      > > > Johnsen, Ingrid Sanness., 1971
      > > >
      > > > Gutan³ (¿) [1Z] (w³)h hailag
      > > > the Goths' hereditary property - (1Z) - consecrated [and]
      > > inviolable
      > > > Krause, Wolfgang, Herbert Jankuhn.
      > > > 1966
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > What is clear from this list is that the reading and the
      > > translation
      > > > is rather uncertain. However, in contrast to Reichert's latest
      > > study
      > > > not all of these translations above will have been based on a
      >close
      > > > analysis of the original ring, so that some of them likely suffer
      > > > from a misreading of the runes.
      > > >
      > > > cheers
      > > > Dirk
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
      > > <fericzobor@y...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > Hi, Dirk,
      > > > >
      > > > > I write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG' because it is in Gothic and because
      > > it's
      > > > > from my country, Romania. In fact, the runes read GUTANI?
      > > WIHAILAG,
      > > > > where ? is for the illegible rune at the place of the fracture
      >of
      > > > the
      > > > > necklace. I know that there are still controversies regarding
      >the
      > > > > interpretation of this text, but I personally think that it is
      > > not
      > > > > very plausible the interpretation of GUTANI as 'gutane'
      >= 'good'.
      > > > > First: indeed, in German 'gut' = 'good', but in Gothic 'good'
      >is
      > > > > goths/goda-, so the genitive plural, weak adjectival
      >declension,
      > > > > would be 'godane', not 'gutane'.
      > > > > Second: it doesn't make sense in this context to put the
      > > > > adjective 'good' in genitive plural. But the substantive "Goth"
      > > in
      > > > > genitive plural - "of the Goths" is more meaningful.
      > > > > So I still prefer to consider that the most plausible
      > > > interpretation
      > > > > of GUTANI is 'gutane' = 'of the Goths'.
      > > > >
      > > > > With best regards,
      > > > > Francisc
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
      > > > > > ...
      > > > > > Hi Francisc,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I see that you write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG'. Did you know that the
      > > > > latest
      > > > > > investigation on the original ring suggests that the best
      > > reading
      > > > > of
      > > > > > the inscription is 'gutane jer weih hailag', which is a
      > > blessing
      > > > > for
      > > > > > a good year, with 'gutane' meaning 'good' . Hence, the name
      >of
      > > > the
      > > > > > Goths is probably not on the ring.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Cheers
      > > > > > Dirk
      >

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    • Francisc Czobor
      Hello, Ravi As I have shown in my previous message, there was a graphic transformation, not a phonetic transformation, of T in TH. In mediaeval Latin texts,
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 2, 2003
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        Hello, Ravi

        As I have shown in my previous message, there was a graphic
        transformation, not a phonetic transformation, of T in TH.
        In mediaeval Latin texts, they used to write TH instead of T,
        especially when spelling non-Latin words, but that "TH" was read [t].
        To remain in the field of words of Gothic origin, we have "Goti"
        and "Gothi", "Tervingi" and "Thervingi", "Attila" and "Athila" etc.
        In all these examples, it is clear that the sound was [t], and
        the "H" was added to make the word look more "exotic".
        In conclusion, Latin had both "Goti" and "Gothi". The form "Goti" was
        the original one, whereas "Gothi" was only a spelling variation
        of "Goti". It happened that Modern English retained the form
        with "h", but in English "th" is pronounced differently than "t".
        As I wrote in my previous message, in many languages the form
        without "h" is used, for instance:
        German: Gote, pl. Goten, adj. gotisch
        Old Norse: Gotar (pl.)
        Hungarian: gót, pl. gótok
        Romanian: got, pl. got,i, adj. gotic
        Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski
        In Spanish "godo" the word was popular, not scholar (as in most other
        languages), so it suffered the transformation of intervocalic [t]
        into [d], like all Spanish words inherited from Latin.
        On the other hand, the French language had the form with "h", as
        in "gothique" (adj.), but here "th" is pronounced [t].
        So the transformation "t" > "th" in English "Goth" occured in Latin
        (or in Greek) and has no special significance. Not at all.

        Francisc


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
        <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Thanks it was the use of the H that was of interest, and the Th
        > sound not the T sound, that is got transformed from.
        >
        >
        > That makes sense to me,
        >
        > Is this kind of transformation common?
        >
        > Are therE other examples ?
        >
        > Ravi
        >
        >
      • Егоров Владимир
        To Francisc Czobor Hi, Francisc! I dare add a couple of comments to your translations of the word Goth / Gothic in diverse languages, specifically
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 3, 2003
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          To Francisc Czobor

          Hi, Francisc!

          I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
          of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
          specifically regarding Russian.
          (Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
          to see some spellings properly.)

          >>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski

          1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
          a) 'готский' [gotskij] that means general belonging
          or relation to the Goths;
          b) 'готический' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
          concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
          architecture and type.

          2. Old Russian knows the Goths as 'гъты'
          (attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
          with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
          I am at a loss here for a transcription.
          Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
          while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
          though a sound like [o] is also probable.

          Best regards,

          Vladimir
        • Tore Gannholm
          ... Hi! Are you referring to the treaties between Gotland and Novgorod 1189 and between Gotland and Smolensk 1229. Here it is the Gotlandic coast. Gutniska
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 3, 2003
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            >To Francisc Czobor
            >
            >Hi, Francisc!
            >
            >I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
            >of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
            >specifically regarding Russian.
            >(Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
            > to see some spellings properly.)
            >
            >>>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski
            >
            >1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
            >a) '???????' [gotskij] that means general belonging
            > or relation to the Goths;
            >b) '??????????' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
            > concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
            > architecture and type.
            >
            >2. Old Russian knows the Goths as '????'
            >(attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
            > with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
            >I am at a loss here for a transcription.
            >Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
            >while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
            >though a sound like [o] is also probable.
            >
            >Best regards,
            >
            >Vladimir
            >


            Hi!
            Are you referring to the treaties between Gotland and Novgorod 1189
            and between Gotland and Smolensk 1229. Here it is the Gotlandic
            coast. "Gutniska kusten".

            se http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/gutagard/default.htm

            Tore
            --
          • Francisc Czobor
            Hi, Vladimir Thank you very much for the correction. I suspected that the adjective goticheskij refers rather to the gothic architectural style than to the
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 3, 2003
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              Hi, Vladimir

              Thank you very much for the correction. I suspected that the
              adjective "goticheskij" refers rather to the "gothic" architectural
              style than to the East-Germanic Goths, but I was not sure.

              With best regards,
              Francisc

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
              > To Francisc Czobor
              >
              > Hi, Francisc!
              >
              > I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
              > of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
              > specifically regarding Russian.
              > (Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
              > to see some spellings properly.)
              >
              > >>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski
              >
              > 1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
              > a) 'ÇÏÔÓËÉÊ' [gotskij] that means general belonging
              > or relation to the Goths;
              > b) 'ÇÏÔÉÞÅÓËÉÊ' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
              > concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
              > architecture and type.
              >
              > 2. Old Russian knows the Goths as 'ÇßÔÙ'
              > (attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
              > with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
              > I am at a loss here for a transcription.
              > Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
              > while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
              > though a sound like [o] is also probable.
              >
              > Best regards,
              >
              > Vladimir
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