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Re: [gothic-l] Re: GUTANI WIHAILAG

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  • Terje Ellefsen
    Hi The word Goth is not Gothic, they would say something like: sa guta for the goth . However, texts about Goths weren t written in Gothic, but other
    Message 1 of 15 , Jun 30, 2003
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      Hi

      The word "Goth" is not Gothic, they would say something like: "sa guta" for
      "the goth". However, texts about Goths weren't written in Gothic, but other
      languages like Latin.

      Terje


      >From: "Ravi Chaudhary" <ravichaudhary2000@...>
      >Reply-To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      >To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: [gothic-l] Re: GUTANI WIHAILAG
      >Date: Mon, 30 Jun 2003 21:52:53 -0000
      >
      >To both of you
      >
      >How do one derive Goth from Gut- ane.?
      >
      >Ravi
      >
      >
      >
      >-- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
      >wrote:
      > > Hi, Dirk,
      > >
      > > I don't dispute the reading 'gutane', I just mean that, based on
      >what
      > > we know about Wulfila's Gothic language, 'gutane' means rather 'of
      > > the Goths' than 'good' (which would be goths, goda-). jer 'year' in
      > > Gothic is neutrum, like the German 'Jahr', and if you wish to
      > > somebody 'ein gutes Jahr', this would be in Gothic 'godata jer',
      >and
      > > not 'gutane jer'. 'gutane jer' could mean only 'year of the Goths'
      > > (?!)
      > >
      > > Francisc
      > >
      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
      > > > Hi Francisc,
      > > >
      > > > I have no linguistic knowledge and rely only on secondary
      >sources.
      > > > The reading 'GUTANE JER WEIH HAILAG' I found in a recent article
      >by
      > > > A. Schwarcs "Cult and Religion among the Tervingi and the
      >Visigoths
      > > > and their conversion to Christianity" in 'The Visigoths from the
      > > > Migration to the 7th Century: An Ethnographic Perspective', Ed.
      >P.
      > > > Heather, 2000.
      > > >
      > > > p. (page numbers not on my copy) "A recent study one by Hermann
      > > > Reichert with a thorough scrutiny of th eoriginal in Bucarest in
      > > 1992
      > > > gives as the most plausible reading of this runic
      > > inscription "gutane
      > > > jer weih hailag", a blessing for a fruitful and prosperous
      >year..."
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > The Runenprojekt of the University of Kiel in Germany also
      >records
      > > > the following alternative interpretations:
      > > >
      > > > Gutani¿ w³hhailag
      > > > sacrosanctum of gothic women/female warriors(?)
      > > > Antonsen, Elmer H. 1975
      > > >
      > > > Gutaniom hailag
      > > > dedicated to the Gothic Mothers (=female guardian spirits of the
      > > > Goths)
      > > > Krogmann, Willy. 1978
      > > >
      > > > (G)ut(an³) (¿) (1Z) (w³)hh(a)i(l)ag ...
      > > > the Goths' protector (=king) (1Z) [be/is] sacrosanct ...
      > > > Isb&%escu, Mihai. 1960
      > > >
      > > > guttani hailag wiko
      > > > holy song of the Goths - Wiko (=rota of the great cult of the
      > > tribe)
      > > > Gutenbrunner, Siegfried. 1964
      > > >
      > > > Gutani¿ w³h hailag
      > > > the holy relic of gothic priestesses (=the [altar] ring)
      > > > Johnsen, Ingrid Sanness., 1971
      > > >
      > > > Gutan³ (¿) [1Z] (w³)h hailag
      > > > the Goths' hereditary property - (1Z) - consecrated [and]
      > > inviolable
      > > > Krause, Wolfgang, Herbert Jankuhn.
      > > > 1966
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > What is clear from this list is that the reading and the
      > > translation
      > > > is rather uncertain. However, in contrast to Reichert's latest
      > > study
      > > > not all of these translations above will have been based on a
      >close
      > > > analysis of the original ring, so that some of them likely suffer
      > > > from a misreading of the runes.
      > > >
      > > > cheers
      > > > Dirk
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
      > > <fericzobor@y...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > > Hi, Dirk,
      > > > >
      > > > > I write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG' because it is in Gothic and because
      > > it's
      > > > > from my country, Romania. In fact, the runes read GUTANI?
      > > WIHAILAG,
      > > > > where ? is for the illegible rune at the place of the fracture
      >of
      > > > the
      > > > > necklace. I know that there are still controversies regarding
      >the
      > > > > interpretation of this text, but I personally think that it is
      > > not
      > > > > very plausible the interpretation of GUTANI as 'gutane'
      >= 'good'.
      > > > > First: indeed, in German 'gut' = 'good', but in Gothic 'good'
      >is
      > > > > goths/goda-, so the genitive plural, weak adjectival
      >declension,
      > > > > would be 'godane', not 'gutane'.
      > > > > Second: it doesn't make sense in this context to put the
      > > > > adjective 'good' in genitive plural. But the substantive "Goth"
      > > in
      > > > > genitive plural - "of the Goths" is more meaningful.
      > > > > So I still prefer to consider that the most plausible
      > > > interpretation
      > > > > of GUTANI is 'gutane' = 'of the Goths'.
      > > > >
      > > > > With best regards,
      > > > > Francisc
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
      > > > > > ...
      > > > > > Hi Francisc,
      > > > > >
      > > > > > I see that you write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG'. Did you know that the
      > > > > latest
      > > > > > investigation on the original ring suggests that the best
      > > reading
      > > > > of
      > > > > > the inscription is 'gutane jer weih hailag', which is a
      > > blessing
      > > > > for
      > > > > > a good year, with 'gutane' meaning 'good' . Hence, the name
      >of
      > > > the
      > > > > > Goths is probably not on the ring.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > Cheers
      > > > > > Dirk
      >

      _________________________________________________________________
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    • Francisc Czobor
      Hello, Ravi I didn t understand very well your question, but I ll try to give an answer. Gutane (which can be read on the golden necklace of the Gothic
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 1, 2003
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        Hello, Ravi

        I didn't understand very well your question, but I'll try to give an
        answer.
        Gutane (which can be read on the golden necklace of the Gothic
        treasury of Pietroasa, Romania) was interpreted (among other
        alternatives, see Dirk's recent messages) as genitive plural of a
        masculie n-stem *Gutan-, which would be in nominative singular *Guta,
        plural *Gutans, thus *Gutane would mean "of the Goths" (cf.
        Köbler's "Gotisches Wörterbuch" and the literature indicated there).
        The feminine form would be Guto "Gothic woman", which is attested as
        a personal name. It is shure that the Goths used for themselves the
        root Gut-, the word Gut-thiuda "Goth-people" (= "Gothic people")
        being attested in the Gothic Calendar.
        Now regarding the modern English word Goth. According to Webster's
        New World College Dictionary, it is derived from late Latin Gothi,
        which in it's turn comes from Greek Gothoi (or Gotthoi, according to
        my Old Greek dictionary). The "h" was apparently introduced by the
        Greeks. In Old Greek "th" (theta) was an aspirated [t] and not the
        English interdental sond "th". In Latin, "th" was only a graphy, it
        was read [t]. It is noteworthy that in Latin is attested also the
        form "Goti", namely in Gothic Latin texts (see Köbler), which means
        that the original sound was "t", not "th". It is also worth to
        mention that the Old English form is "Gotan" (see Webster),
        without "h" and with the same n-stem as in the putative Gothic form
        *Gutan-. Also in other languages, the name of the Goths doesn't
        contain the "h", for example the German "Goten" (again n-stem!).
        Regarding the transformation short [u] > short [o], it is attested in
        all Germanic languages and also in later stage of Gothic (latinized
        Gothic words in latin sources, Crimean Gothic words of XVIth century).

        With best regards,
        Francisc


        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
        <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
        > To both of you
        >
        > How do one derive Goth from Gut- ane.?
        >
        > Ravi
        >
        >
        >
        > -- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
        > wrote:
        > > Hi, Dirk,
        > >
        > > I don't dispute the reading 'gutane', I just mean that, based on
        > what
        > > we know about Wulfila's Gothic language, 'gutane' means
        rather 'of
        > > the Goths' than 'good' (which would be goths, goda-). jer 'year'
        in
        > > Gothic is neutrum, like the German 'Jahr', and if you wish to
        > > somebody 'ein gutes Jahr', this would be in Gothic 'godata jer',
        > and
        > > not 'gutane jer'. 'gutane jer' could mean only 'year of the
        Goths'
        > > (?!)
        > >
        > > Francisc
        > >
        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
        > > > Hi Francisc,
        > > >
        > > > I have no linguistic knowledge and rely only on secondary
        > sources.
        > > > The reading 'GUTANE JER WEIH HAILAG' I found in a recent
        article
        > by
        > > > A. Schwarcs "Cult and Religion among the Tervingi and the
        > Visigoths
        > > > and their conversion to Christianity" in 'The Visigoths from
        the
        > > > Migration to the 7th Century: An Ethnographic Perspective', Ed.
        > P.
        > > > Heather, 2000.
        > > >
        > > > p. (page numbers not on my copy) "A recent study one by Hermann
        > > > Reichert with a thorough scrutiny of th eoriginal in Bucarest
        in
        > > 1992
        > > > gives as the most plausible reading of this runic
        > > inscription "gutane
        > > > jer weih hailag", a blessing for a fruitful and prosperous
        > year..."
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > The Runenprojekt of the University of Kiel in Germany also
        > records
        > > > the following alternative interpretations:
        > > >
        > > > Gutani¿ w³hhailag
        > > > sacrosanctum of gothic women/female warriors(?)
        > > > Antonsen, Elmer H. 1975
        > > >
        > > > Gutaniom hailag
        > > > dedicated to the Gothic Mothers (=female guardian spirits of
        the
        > > > Goths)
        > > > Krogmann, Willy. 1978
        > > >
        > > > (G)ut(an³) (¿) (1Z) (w³)hh(a)i(l)ag ...
        > > > the Goths' protector (=king) (1Z) [be/is] sacrosanct ...
        > > > Isb&%escu, Mihai. 1960
        > > >
        > > > guttani hailag wiko
        > > > holy song of the Goths - Wiko (=rota of the great cult of the
        > > tribe)
        > > > Gutenbrunner, Siegfried. 1964
        > > >
        > > > Gutani¿ w³h hailag
        > > > the holy relic of gothic priestesses (=the [altar] ring)
        > > > Johnsen, Ingrid Sanness., 1971
        > > >
        > > > Gutan³ (¿) [1Z] (w³)h hailag
        > > > the Goths' hereditary property - (1Z) - consecrated [and]
        > > inviolable
        > > > Krause, Wolfgang, Herbert Jankuhn.
        > > > 1966
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > What is clear from this list is that the reading and the
        > > translation
        > > > is rather uncertain. However, in contrast to Reichert's latest
        > > study
        > > > not all of these translations above will have been based on a
        > close
        > > > analysis of the original ring, so that some of them likely
        suffer
        > > > from a misreading of the runes.
        > > >
        > > > cheers
        > > > Dirk
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor"
        > > <fericzobor@y...>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > > Hi, Dirk,
        > > > >
        > > > > I write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG' because it is in Gothic and because
        > > it's
        > > > > from my country, Romania. In fact, the runes read GUTANI?
        > > WIHAILAG,
        > > > > where ? is for the illegible rune at the place of the
        fracture
        > of
        > > > the
        > > > > necklace. I know that there are still controversies regarding
        > the
        > > > > interpretation of this text, but I personally think that it
        is
        > > not
        > > > > very plausible the interpretation of GUTANI as 'gutane'
        > = 'good'.
        > > > > First: indeed, in German 'gut' = 'good', but in Gothic 'good'
        > is
        > > > > goths/goda-, so the genitive plural, weak adjectival
        > declension,
        > > > > would be 'godane', not 'gutane'.
        > > > > Second: it doesn't make sense in this context to put the
        > > > > adjective 'good' in genitive plural. But the
        substantive "Goth"
        > > in
        > > > > genitive plural - "of the Goths" is more meaningful.
        > > > > So I still prefer to consider that the most plausible
        > > > interpretation
        > > > > of GUTANI is 'gutane' = 'of the Goths'.
        > > > >
        > > > > With best regards,
        > > > > Francisc
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...>
        wrote:
        > > > > > ...
        > > > > > Hi Francisc,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I see that you write 'GUTANI WIHAILAG'. Did you know that
        the
        > > > > latest
        > > > > > investigation on the original ring suggests that the best
        > > reading
        > > > > of
        > > > > > the inscription is 'gutane jer weih hailag', which is a
        > > blessing
        > > > > for
        > > > > > a good year, with 'gutane' meaning 'good' . Hence, the name
        > of
        > > > the
        > > > > > Goths is probably not on the ring.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Cheers
        > > > > > Dirk
      • Ravi Chaudhary
        Thanks it was the use of the H that was of interest, and the Th sound not the T sound, that is got transformed from. That makes sense to me, Is this kind of
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 1, 2003
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          Thanks it was the use of the H that was of interest, and the Th
          sound not the T sound, that is got transformed from.


          That makes sense to me,

          Is this kind of transformation common?

          Are therE other examples ?

          Ravi




          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
          wrote:
          > Hello, Ravi
          >
          > I didn't understand very well your question, but I'll try to give
          an
          > answer.
          > Gutane (which can be read on the golden necklace of the Gothic
          > treasury of Pietroasa, Romania) was interpreted (among other
          > alternatives, see Dirk's recent messages) as genitive plural of a
          > masculie n-stem *Gutan-, which would be in nominative singular
          *Guta,
          > plural *Gutans, thus *Gutane would mean "of the Goths" (cf.
          > Köbler's "Gotisches Wörterbuch" and the literature indicated
          there).
          > The feminine form would be Guto "Gothic woman", which is attested
          as
          > a personal name. It is shure that the Goths used for themselves the
          > root Gut-, the word Gut-thiuda "Goth-people" (= "Gothic people")
          > being attested in the Gothic Calendar.
          > Now regarding the modern English word Goth. According to Webster's
          > New World College Dictionary, it is derived from late Latin Gothi,
          > which in it's turn comes from Greek Gothoi (or Gotthoi, according
          to
          > my Old Greek dictionary). The "h" was apparently introduced by the
          > Greeks. In Old Greek "th" (theta) was an aspirated [t] and not the
          > English interdental sond "th". In Latin, "th" was only a graphy, it
          > was read [t]. It is noteworthy that in Latin is attested also the
          > form "Goti", namely in Gothic Latin texts (see Köbler), which means
          > that the original sound was "t", not "th". It is also worth to
          > mention that the Old English form is "Gotan" (see Webster),
          > without "h" and with the same n-stem as in the putative Gothic form
          > *Gutan-. Also in other languages, the name of the Goths doesn't
          > contain the "h", for example the German "Goten" (again n-stem!).
          > Regarding the transformation short [u] > short [o], it is attested
          in
          > all Germanic languages and also in later stage of Gothic (latinized
          > Gothic words in latin sources, Crimean Gothic words of XVIth
          century).
          >
          > With best regards,
          > Francisc
          >
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
          > <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
          > > To both of you
          > >
          > > How do one derive Goth from Gut- ane.?
          > >
          > > Ravi
        • Francisc Czobor
          Hello, Ravi As I have shown in my previous message, there was a graphic transformation, not a phonetic transformation, of T in TH. In mediaeval Latin texts,
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 2, 2003
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            Hello, Ravi

            As I have shown in my previous message, there was a graphic
            transformation, not a phonetic transformation, of T in TH.
            In mediaeval Latin texts, they used to write TH instead of T,
            especially when spelling non-Latin words, but that "TH" was read [t].
            To remain in the field of words of Gothic origin, we have "Goti"
            and "Gothi", "Tervingi" and "Thervingi", "Attila" and "Athila" etc.
            In all these examples, it is clear that the sound was [t], and
            the "H" was added to make the word look more "exotic".
            In conclusion, Latin had both "Goti" and "Gothi". The form "Goti" was
            the original one, whereas "Gothi" was only a spelling variation
            of "Goti". It happened that Modern English retained the form
            with "h", but in English "th" is pronounced differently than "t".
            As I wrote in my previous message, in many languages the form
            without "h" is used, for instance:
            German: Gote, pl. Goten, adj. gotisch
            Old Norse: Gotar (pl.)
            Hungarian: gót, pl. gótok
            Romanian: got, pl. got,i, adj. gotic
            Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski
            In Spanish "godo" the word was popular, not scholar (as in most other
            languages), so it suffered the transformation of intervocalic [t]
            into [d], like all Spanish words inherited from Latin.
            On the other hand, the French language had the form with "h", as
            in "gothique" (adj.), but here "th" is pronounced [t].
            So the transformation "t" > "th" in English "Goth" occured in Latin
            (or in Greek) and has no special significance. Not at all.

            Francisc


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
            <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Thanks it was the use of the H that was of interest, and the Th
            > sound not the T sound, that is got transformed from.
            >
            >
            > That makes sense to me,
            >
            > Is this kind of transformation common?
            >
            > Are therE other examples ?
            >
            > Ravi
            >
            >
          • Егоров Владимир
            To Francisc Czobor Hi, Francisc! I dare add a couple of comments to your translations of the word Goth / Gothic in diverse languages, specifically
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 3, 2003
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              To Francisc Czobor

              Hi, Francisc!

              I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
              of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
              specifically regarding Russian.
              (Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
              to see some spellings properly.)

              >>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski

              1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
              a) 'готский' [gotskij] that means general belonging
              or relation to the Goths;
              b) 'готический' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
              concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
              architecture and type.

              2. Old Russian knows the Goths as 'гъты'
              (attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
              with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
              I am at a loss here for a transcription.
              Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
              while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
              though a sound like [o] is also probable.

              Best regards,

              Vladimir
            • Tore Gannholm
              ... Hi! Are you referring to the treaties between Gotland and Novgorod 1189 and between Gotland and Smolensk 1229. Here it is the Gotlandic coast. Gutniska
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 3, 2003
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                >To Francisc Czobor
                >
                >Hi, Francisc!
                >
                >I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
                >of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
                >specifically regarding Russian.
                >(Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
                > to see some spellings properly.)
                >
                >>>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski
                >
                >1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
                >a) '???????' [gotskij] that means general belonging
                > or relation to the Goths;
                >b) '??????????' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
                > concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
                > architecture and type.
                >
                >2. Old Russian knows the Goths as '????'
                >(attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
                > with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
                >I am at a loss here for a transcription.
                >Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
                >while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
                >though a sound like [o] is also probable.
                >
                >Best regards,
                >
                >Vladimir
                >


                Hi!
                Are you referring to the treaties between Gotland and Novgorod 1189
                and between Gotland and Smolensk 1229. Here it is the Gotlandic
                coast. "Gutniska kusten".

                se http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/zentrum_/gutagard/default.htm

                Tore
                --
              • Francisc Czobor
                Hi, Vladimir Thank you very much for the correction. I suspected that the adjective goticheskij refers rather to the gothic architectural style than to the
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 3, 2003
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                  Hi, Vladimir

                  Thank you very much for the correction. I suspected that the
                  adjective "goticheskij" refers rather to the "gothic" architectural
                  style than to the East-Germanic Goths, but I was not sure.

                  With best regards,
                  Francisc

                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
                  > To Francisc Czobor
                  >
                  > Hi, Francisc!
                  >
                  > I dare add a couple of comments to your translations
                  > of the word 'Goth' / 'Gothic' in diverse languages,
                  > specifically regarding Russian.
                  > (Probably you need to apply the Cyrillic coding
                  > to see some spellings properly.)
                  >
                  > >>> Russian: got, pl. goty, adj. goticheski
                  >
                  > 1. The Russian language has two adjectives for 'Gothic':
                  > a) 'ÇÏÔÓËÉÊ' [gotskij] that means general belonging
                  > or relation to the Goths;
                  > b) 'ÇÏÔÉÞÅÓËÉÊ' [gotit?eskij] with the restricted use
                  > concerning the late medieval (12-15 cc.)
                  > architecture and type.
                  >
                  > 2. Old Russian knows the Goths as 'ÇßÔÙ'
                  > (attested in some treaties of Novgorod and Smolensk
                  > with "the Gothic Shore and Latin Language", 13th c.).
                  > I am at a loss here for a transcription.
                  > Anyhow, the consonant is undoubtedly [t]
                  > while the vowel might be something between [o] and [a]
                  > though a sound like [o] is also probable.
                  >
                  > Best regards,
                  >
                  > Vladimir
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