Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Christensen's book on the Goths

Expand Messages
  • faltin2001
    I have had a first quick read-through of the new book by Arne Soby Christensen „Cassiodorus Jordanes and the History of the Goths , Museum Tusculum Press,
    Message 1 of 18 , May 26 1:54 PM
    • 0 Attachment
      I have had a first quick read-through of the new book by Arne Soby
      Christensen „Cassiodorus Jordanes and the History of the Goths",
      Museum Tusculum Press, University of Copenhagen, 2002.

      The book is based on the author's PhD thesis and consists of 391
      pages. I found the book very interesting. If Wolfram shows us how
      incredibly much we know about the Goths, Christensen shows us how
      incredibly little we really know about the Goths. The book is, in my
      view in a modern critical historiographic tradition, similar to
      authors like Goffart and Hachmann. As such the author analysis and
      revaluates many aspects, which others have come to accept as given.

      In the first chapter, the author sets out the problem. The author
      shows that Jordanes's Getica has become to be regarded as the
      autorative source on Gothic history. The author shows that Swedish
      Gothicism was based on the Getica and its veracity. The author poses
      the question why scholars had become to value the writing of a rather
      insignificant and limited author like Jordanes over that of a far
      more erudite scholar like Isidore of Seville. The answer is that
      Jordanes claims to have based parts of his Getica on real Gothic
      traditions (carmina prisca).

      Chapter 2 deals with the literature that mentions the Goths prior to
      Cassiodorus/Jordanes. The author establishes that Roman and Greek
      sources knew very little about the Goths, especially did they know
      nothing about the origins of the Goths. The author also reminds us
      that identifications like the Gotones with the later Gothi should not
      be taken for granted. There is no definite proof that these were
      really the same people, only circumstantial evidence, some of which
      does not fully convince.

      In Chapter 3, the author analysis Cassiodorus' writing like the
      Chronica and Variae. The author shows that all information about the
      Goths in these works was taken from classical sources. There is no
      sign of a Gothic tradition in these works. Chapter 4 deals with
      Jordanes' background and other works.

      In Chapter 5, the author analysis the Amal genealogy. He shows that
      the genealogy which starts in the time of Domitianus cannot have been
      a Gothic tradition. The king Dorpaneus, which Jordanes/Cassiodorus
      made into an Amal, was in fact not even a Goths. Jordanes Getica is
      essentially out of line with contemporary authors like Tacitus. The
      author also shows that identifications like Gapt with Gaut and Hulmul
      with the Danish Humble are not convincing, and have been given very
      controversial treatment in the literature.

      In Chapter 6, the author deals with the Gothic kingdom of Ermaneric.
      The author shows that all the information here was borrowed from
      Ammianus Marcellinus and was essentially not a Gothic tradition. The
      famous name list of subjugated peoples was very controversially
      interpreted in the literature. At least some of the names were
      invented, probably by Cassiodorus and/or inspired by the tales of
      Aesti emissaries at the court of Ravenna. Alas, they were not handed
      down by Gothic tradition. The perplexing thing is that Ermaneric was
      not praised in the Gothic carmina prisca either.

      Chapter 7 reproduces the evidence and argument to show that the
      various names of the Goths (Vesi, Ostrogoths, Greuthungi, Tervingi)
      were not ancient at the time of Cassiodorus. Instead, they only
      appeared at the end of the 4th century and do not predate the
      onslaught of the Huns, which is in contrast to the claims by
      Jordanes.

      Chapter 8 deals with various aspects of the Goths' time in Scythia as
      reported in the Getica. The author shows that the various elements
      were borrowed from other Roman and Greek sources. Even the episode
      with the Halirunnae, are essentially a Christian motif that cannot
      have been passed down by Gothic tradition. The author also deals with
      the personal names of Goths reported by Jordanes, such as the king
      Telephus. The author states that Jordanes realised that he mentioned
      many non-Gothic names in the early history of the Goths. Hence, he
      introduced the apology stating that it is not uncommon for one people
      to borrow the names from others. The conclusion to this chapter is
      that there is no genuine Gothic tradition reaching back to this time
      in Scythia reflected in the Getica. What is more, Jordanes, who
      himself claimed to be a Goth could not contribute anything from this
      own experience.

      Chapter 9 deals with the migration from Scandza. The author provides
      a thorough discussion of the names of Scandzian tribes as reported in
      the Getica. The conclusion here is that these names do not provide
      any support for a migration of the Goths from Scandinavia. Many of
      the names have been made up by Cassiodorus. The author states that
      nothing in the Scandza section can be linked to the Goths or Gothic
      tradition. This is important since one argument in the past was that
      the name of the Goths was preserved in Scandinavian place names like
      Gotland, Oestergoetland and Vestergoetland. Instead, the author shows
      that Cassiodorus in his research for the History of the Goths came
      across not only the names Getae and Magog to which he linked the
      Goth, but also the name Gautai in Ptolemy. This coincidental name
      similarity with the Gautai inspired him to place the origin of the
      Goth in Scandza. The author cites H.F. Nielsen (1997) "There are no
      tenable philological arguments supporting a particular Gotho-Nordic
      branch of Germanic, nor are there consequently any such arguments
      supporting a Gothic migration from Scandinavia, as is sometimes
      presented to be".

      In Chapter 10 the author analysis the migration episode in more
      detail. Again, he finds no evidence that suggests that the report of
      Berig leading three ships of Goths (one of Gepids) from Scandza to
      Gothicscandza, has anything to do with genuine Gothic traditions. The
      Goths of the time had no such memory and the story is fabricated by
      Cassiodorus. For example, Isidore of Seville provided various
      possibilities for the origin of the Goths, but he knew nothing of
      Scandza either. Even the name Berig may have been borrowed from Dio,
      who reported about a certain Berikos, who was driven to flee the
      island of Britannia at the time of Claudius I.

      In Chapter 11, the author demonstrates that even important recent
      events like the battle of the Catalaunian fields was not retold on
      the basis of Gothic traditions. Instead Cassiodorus relied only on
      Roman authors for information about such a pivotal event in recent
      Gothic history.

      Chapter 12 concludes the book. The author stated that the Getica does
      not present a genuine Gothic history on the basis of Gothic tales or
      songs. Instead it is a fabrication, bases on various Roman and Greek
      sources and the wrong identification of the Goths with the Getae, the
      biblical Magog and the Gautai mentioned in Ptolemy. What is important
      is that the Goths had no notion of a common origin from Scandinavia
      prior to Cassiodorus' invention of such a history. The final
      sentences read " Parting is often a painful process, as in this case,
      where we must relinguish something we have grown accustomed to
      regarding as Gothic history. Accepting the loss can also be quite
      challenging. Yet, if Cassiodorus created this part of Gothic historty
      out of nothing, or rather, if he formed it by creatively using the
      histories of other peoples and employing his own imagination, then
      what we are losing is hardly the history of the Goths. It is merely
      the author's fabrication fading away. On the other hand, it is
      extremely interesting to investigate, from a contemporary
      perspective, the narrative Cassiodorus was able to create and
      presumably have accepted as the history of the Goths …"

      Overall, I think that this is an important book. It shows that the
      one basis that linked the Goths with Scandinavia is only a
      fabrication of an early 6th century Roman. The author even shows that
      philological evidence for a Gothic link to Scandinavia does not
      exist, just as there is no basis for linking them with the Getae and
      the biblical Magog. Thus, the Getica which had dominated all research
      on the Goths for centuries cannot be used to write the early history
      of this people.


      Cheers
      Dirk
    • Ravi Chaudhary
      ... Ravi: I posted the above on the Jathistory list, here is a response I got: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/598 Ravi Sunny Singh writes:
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 13, 2003
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
        > I have had a first quick read-through of the new book by Arne Soby
        > Christensen „Cassiodorus Jordanes and the History of the Goths",
        > Museum Tusculum Press, University of Copenhagen, 2002.
        > another view:


        Ravi: I posted the above on the Jathistory list, here is a response
        I got:

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/598

        Ravi

        Sunny Singh writes:

        just a supplement - I have indeed studied
        Christensen very carefully, and I caught the caveat, which
        undoubtedly may be an important hole in this individual's theory.

        As a repeat, A.S. Christensen of the University of Copenhagen, argues
        that the identification of the Goths with the Getae by the classical
        writers is erroneous (Christensen 2002). However, Christensen still
        comments on the following point made by Jakob Grimm:

        J. Grimm was the last to defend an opposing view, based on the
        argument that the Getae are mentioned during early Antiquity. They
        later disappear completely, while the Goths appear in the sources at
        approximately the same time. Was it conceivable that the Getae just
        suddenly disappeared? His point is, of course, that a certain people
        were initially referred to as Getae and later came to be called Goths
        (Christensen 2002: 247).

        Is it not that that Grimm was on to something? Does this not imply
        that Goth is a new name for the same people? Why is this point simply
        smoothed over?

        Another authority, this time a respectable linguistic scholar in his
        own day, Bosworth, makes the same assertion as Grimm:

        According to the opinion of many Scandinavian antiquaries, the Goths
        who overran the Roman empire, came from Scandinavian or Sweden; but
        Tacitus speaks of no Goths in Scandinavia, and only of Suiones, which
        is the same name that the Swen-skar (Swedes) apply to themselves at
        the present day. It is therefore more probable, as some learned
        Swedes acknowledge, that the when the Goths wandered towards the west
        and south of Europe, some of them, in early times, crossed the Baltic
        and established themselves in the south of Sweden and the island of
        Gothland. We know from Tacitus, just cited, that the Goths that the
        Goths were in Pomeralia and Prussia, near the Vistula, about A.D. 80…
        (Bosworth 1848: 113-114).

        Is it not fitting to examine this view? Best Wishes,

        Bosworth, J. The Origin of the English, Germanic and Scandinavian
        Languages, and Nations. London. Longman, Brown, Green, and Longsman:
        1848.

        Christensen, A.S. Cassidorus Jordanses and the History of the Goths
        Studies in a Migration Myth. Copenhagen. Museum Tusculanum Press:
        2002.

        PS - Please see Wolfram's book on Goths, for a more balanced view and
        a more honest approach.
      • Ravi Chaudhary
        ... Response from Sunny Singh to a query as to importance *********** I believe the Goths, a Germanic people, were partly formed from the same ancestors of
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 13, 2003
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary" <
          >
          Response from Sunny Singh to a query as to importance>
          ***********
          I believe the Goths, a Germanic people, were
          partly formed from the same ancestors of our Jat people.

          Christensen's book argues that the Goths came from solely Scandinavia.

          The book disregards the works of all classical writers of that period
          as Erroneous – what gives this person that right? In fact, if read
          very carefully, it is a deliberate attempt to put at rest the
          Scythian origin of Goths – since the Scandinavians want to be
          considered the exclusive pro-generators of the European nations.

          One may ask a logical question – how could such a cold and un-
          enticing climate give birth to so many nations? I mean it is not
          densely populated today!

          I will not say the Goths entirely came from Scythia, but definitely
          in part – as evidence by their habits, their dress, their art, the
          classical writers, their intermarriage with other Scythian tribes
          such as Alans, and their clan names – Gill, Mann, Hans, etc.

          Also the Goths were regularly term "Black Mantles" by the classical
          writers – this likely refers to their peaked-caps worn by the
          Massagetae – kind of like witches-hats!

          Regards,

          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/595
        • faltin2001
          ... Scandinavia. Quite the opposite, Sunny Singh needs to read the book first, before commenting. ... period ... Firstly, it does not disregard the works of
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 16, 2003
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
            <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
            > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary" <
            > >
            > Response from Sunny Singh to a query as to importance>
            > ***********
            > I believe the Goths, a Germanic people, were
            > partly formed from the same ancestors of our Jat people.
            >
            > Christensen's book argues that the Goths came from solely
            Scandinavia.





            Quite the opposite, Sunny Singh needs to read the book first, before
            commenting.






            >
            > The book disregards the works of all classical writers of that
            period
            > as Erroneous – what gives this person that right?



            Firstly, it does not disregard the works of all classical writers.
            This is utter nonsense. Again, Sunny should read the book first.







            In fact, if read
            > very carefully, it is a deliberate attempt to put at rest the
            > Scythian origin of Goths – since the Scandinavians want to be
            > considered the exclusive pro-generators of the European nations.
            >



            Why does Sunny speak of reading something carefully, when he has
            clearly not the faintest idea what the book is about? The book by
            Christensen almost exclusively argues the opposite of what Sunny
            thinks it argues.








            > One may ask a logical question – how could such a cold and un-
            > enticing climate give birth to so many nations? I mean it is not
            > densely populated today!
            >
            > I will not say the Goths entirely came from Scythia, but definitely
            > in part – as evidence by their habits, their dress, their art, the
            > classical writers, their intermarriage with other Scythian tribes
            > such as Alans, and their clan names – Gill, Mann, Hans, etc.
            >
            > Also the Goths were regularly term "Black Mantles" by the classical
            > writers – this likely refers to their peaked-caps worn by the
            > Massagetae – kind of like witches-hats!



            Oh dear!

            Dirk
          • faltin2001
            ... Soby ... response ... argues ... classical ... at ... people ... Goths ... simply ... The Getae have nothing to do with the Goths. In reality even
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 16, 2003
            • 0 Attachment
              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
              <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
              > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
              > > I have had a first quick read-through of the new book by Arne
              Soby
              > > Christensen „Cassiodorus Jordanes and the History of the Goths",
              > > Museum Tusculum Press, University of Copenhagen, 2002.
              > > another view:
              >
              >
              > Ravi: I posted the above on the Jathistory list, here is a
              response
              > I got:
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/598
              >
              > Ravi
              >
              > Sunny Singh writes:
              >
              > just a supplement - I have indeed studied
              > Christensen very carefully, and I caught the caveat, which
              > undoubtedly may be an important hole in this individual's theory.
              >
              > As a repeat, A.S. Christensen of the University of Copenhagen,
              argues
              > that the identification of the Goths with the Getae by the
              classical
              > writers is erroneous (Christensen 2002). However, Christensen still
              > comments on the following point made by Jakob Grimm:
              >
              > J. Grimm was the last to defend an opposing view, based on the
              > argument that the Getae are mentioned during early Antiquity. They
              > later disappear completely, while the Goths appear in the sources
              at
              > approximately the same time. Was it conceivable that the Getae just
              > suddenly disappeared? His point is, of course, that a certain
              people
              > were initially referred to as Getae and later came to be called
              Goths
              > (Christensen 2002: 247).
              >
              > Is it not that that Grimm was on to something? Does this not imply
              > that Goth is a new name for the same people? Why is this point
              simply
              > smoothed over?




              The Getae have nothing to do with the Goths. In reality even
              Cassiodorus/Jordanes were somewhat sceptical of this link, which
              caused them to include the 'sentence that names are often borrowed
              across peoples', when he realised that all the Getaec kings had non-
              Germanic names.







              >
              > Another authority, this time a respectable linguistic scholar in
              his
              > own day, Bosworth, makes the same assertion as Grimm:
              >
              > According to the opinion of many Scandinavian antiquaries, the
              Goths
              > who overran the Roman empire, came from Scandinavian or Sweden; but
              > Tacitus speaks of no Goths in Scandinavia, and only of Suiones,
              which
              > is the same name that the Swen-skar (Swedes) apply to themselves at
              > the present day. It is therefore more probable, as some learned
              > Swedes acknowledge, that the when the Goths wandered towards the
              west
              > and south of Europe, some of them, in early times, crossed the
              Baltic
              > and established themselves in the south of Sweden and the island of
              > Gothland. We know from Tacitus, just cited, that the Goths that the
              > Goths were in Pomeralia and Prussia, near the Vistula, about A.D.
              80…
              > (Bosworth 1848: 113-114).
              >
              > Is it not fitting to examine this view? Best Wishes,
              >
              > Bosworth, J. The Origin of the English, Germanic and Scandinavian
              > Languages, and Nations. London. Longman, Brown, Green, and
              Longsman:
              > 1848.




              Bosworth's mid-19th century assertation is laudible as it shows a lot
              of foresight. Yet, we don't really know if the Gotones mentioned by
              Tacitus are really the forefathers of the later Gothi either. They
              may well be related though, but that is by no means certain.






              >
              > Christensen, A.S. Cassidorus Jordanses and the History of the Goths
              > Studies in a Migration Myth. Copenhagen. Museum Tusculanum Press:
              > 2002.
              >
              > PS - Please see Wolfram's book on Goths, for a more balanced view
              and
              > a more honest approach.



              Wolfram's book on the Goths is certainly worth reading, but it is
              neither more honest nor more balanced, since Christensen is not
              dishonest or unbalanced.

              Dirk
            • Francisc Czobor
              Dear Ravi, I write now because the early history of my country, Romania, is involved here. So, the Getae are for sure different from the Goths. The Getae were
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 16, 2003
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Ravi,

                I write now because the early history of my country, Romania, is
                involved here.
                So, the Getae are for sure different from the Goths.
                The Getae were a Thracian tribe, whereas the Goths were Germanic.
                The Getae, which were the same as the Daci, did not disappear
                suddenly. They mixed with Roman colonists and were romanised
                linguistically, after the conquest by Romans after the war of 105/106
                AD, and their descendants are the Romanians of today.
                The Thracian Getae are also different from the Iranic Massagetae, as
                they are different from the North-African Getuli (which were most
                probably "Hamitic", i.e. from the Afro-Asiatic language family).
                The Goths did not appear suddenly. They are most probably the
                descendants of the earlier Gothones.
                The personal and place names of the Getae were not Germanic at all.
                Drawing conclusions only from name resemblances is hazardous.

                Francisc
              • Ravi Chaudhary
                Dirk and Francsic Thank you both for the insight. I am going to post both your responses on the Jathistory list, and copy Sunny Singh, and ask him to give his
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 16, 2003
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dirk and Francsic

                  Thank you both for the insight.

                  I am going to post both your responses on the Jathistory list, and
                  copy Sunny Singh, and ask him to give his views too, hopefully
                  directly here.

                  Personally I am not hung up on either scenario.

                  I thought it may be of interest what other persons are
                  writing/thinking.

                  If it all gets debunked that is fine too.

                  If there is some substance there it will come out.

                  Many historians have also noted the commonality of customs, and more
                  to the issue, common clan names.

                  Would you reflect on that and help with some insight.

                  Best regards

                  ravi
                • faltin2001
                  ... more ... Hi Ravi, I don t think we know any Gothic clan names appart from the Amals and Balths. Cheers Dirk
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 16, 2003
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
                    <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
                    > Dirk and Francsic
                    >
                    > Thank you both for the insight.
                    >
                    > I am going to post both your responses on the Jathistory list, and
                    > copy Sunny Singh, and ask him to give his views too, hopefully
                    > directly here.
                    >
                    > Personally I am not hung up on either scenario.
                    >
                    > I thought it may be of interest what other persons are
                    > writing/thinking.
                    >
                    > If it all gets debunked that is fine too.
                    >
                    > If there is some substance there it will come out.
                    >
                    > Many historians have also noted the commonality of customs, and
                    more
                    > to the issue, common clan names.




                    Hi Ravi,

                    I don't think we know any Gothic clan names appart from the Amals and
                    Balths.

                    Cheers
                    Dirk






                    >
                    > Would you reflect on that and help with some insight.
                    >
                    > Best regards
                    >
                    > ravi
                  • Ravi Chaudhary
                    ... As I said, this is all exploratory for me, and I quite readily defer to your greater knowledge. On Clans names, may I suggest, you look at the Files
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 16, 2003
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                      As I said, this is all exploratory for me, and I quite readily defer
                      to your greater knowledge.


                      On Clans names, may I suggest, you look at the Files section of:

                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/

                      And see the Files Jat Clans: Jat Clan names in various countries "

                      I have posted about six of seven files.

                      I would like your input.


                      "I don't think we know any Gothic clan names apart from the Amals and
                      Balths. "


                      I can see" Amal" coming from "Mal'. In the Iranian context, the `A'
                      is often added.
                      We do find variants of ` Mal' as Mal, Mull, Malhi. Malli."

                      Balths -. Could also be `Bal' with the suffix `th"

                      Bal is a very famous and large clan; spread all over the North,
                      including what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan.

                      Variants of it are Bal, Baliyan.

                      See for example; http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/141


                      Dirk, I am running into all this material, and I cannot simply
                      dismiss it out of hand.

                      Ravi
                    • Francisc Czobor
                      ... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/141 ... Sorry to write this, but this assertion is not very plausible. Maybe Jordanes did not know much
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 17, 2003
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
                        <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
                        > ...
                        > Balths -. Could also be `Bal' with the suffix `th"
                        >
                        > Bal is a very famous and large clan; spread all over the North,
                        > including what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan.
                        >
                        > Variants of it are Bal, Baliyan.
                        >
                        > See for example;
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/message/141
                        >
                        >
                        > Dirk, I am running into all this material, and I cannot simply
                        > dismiss it out of hand.
                        >
                        > Ravi

                        Sorry to write this, but this assertion is not very plausible.
                        Maybe Jordanes did not know much about the early history of the
                        Goths, but after all he was a Goth and still knew the Gothic
                        language. In Getica (XXIX) he writes:
                        "ordinato super se rege Halarico, cui erat post Amalos secunda
                        nobilitas Balthorumque ex genere origo mirifica, qui dudum ob audacia
                        virtutis Baltha, id est audax"
                        In the English translation of Charles C. Mierow, this passage sounds
                        like this:
                        "they appointed Alaric king over them. He was of a famous stock, and
                        his nobility was second only to that of the Amali, for he came from
                        the family of the Balthi, who because of their daring valor had long
                        ago received among their race the name Baltha, that is, The Bold."

                        Thus, Balth(a) is originally an adjective that means "bold" and is
                        cognate with the English word "bold" (Old English: beald; German:
                        bald, from I.E. base *bhel-, according to Webster's New World College
                        Dictionary).
                        And what has to do a Gothic, i.e. Germanic clan, with the "Bal" of
                        Afghanistan and Pakistan? The Goths were never there.

                        Francisc
                      • faltin2001
                        ... defer ... and ... `A ... Ravi, really those are superficial similarities. In fact, I don t even find that very similar at all. The Amals have nothing to
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 17, 2003
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
                          <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                          > As I said, this is all exploratory for me, and I quite readily
                          defer
                          > to your greater knowledge.
                          >
                          >
                          > On Clans names, may I suggest, you look at the Files section of:
                          >
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JatHistory/
                          >
                          > And see the Files Jat Clans: Jat Clan names in various countries "
                          >
                          > I have posted about six of seven files.
                          >
                          > I would like your input.
                          >
                          >
                          > "I don't think we know any Gothic clan names apart from the Amals
                          and
                          > Balths. "
                          >
                          >
                          > I can see" Amal" coming from "Mal'. In the Iranian context, the
                          `A'
                          > is often added.
                          > We do find variants of ` Mal' as Mal, Mull, Malhi. Malli."




                          Ravi, really those are superficial similarities. In fact, I don't
                          even find that very similar at all. The Amals have nothing to do with
                          Mal, Mull or Malli. Amal probably goes back to a mythical ancestor or
                          demi-god. Note that the name form Amal- is also included in German
                          place names like 'Amalinghausen', which means 'home of the Amals' and
                          Amalungen. While these placenames are not linked to the Gothic Amals,
                          they show that this name was well attested in Germanic territory.




                          >
                          > Balths -. Could also be `Bal' with the suffix `th"
                          >
                          > Bal is a very famous and large clan; spread all over the North,
                          > including what is now Pakistan and Afghanistan.
                          >
                          > Variants of it are Bal, Baliyan.




                          Francisc already provided an answer. The name Balth is according to
                          Jordanes derived from 'bald, bold' meaning bold.

                          Before you go on digging out more name similarities, you should first
                          make a plausibility test and ask, given what we know about Gothic
                          history how likely is it that this and this names are genuinely
                          linked. I think you will find most of the time that places in Asia,
                          names of Indian, or Iranian origin are not the first choice as
                          explanations and interpretations.


                          Best
                          Dirk
                        • Ravi Chaudhary
                          ... Thanks for the patience. You do see why it is important to get views of scholars like yourselves and have this material assessed and critiqued. This is
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 17, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                            > ---

                            Thanks for the patience.

                            You do see why it is important to get views of scholars like
                            yourselves and have this material assessed and critiqued.

                            This is very helpful.

                            Ravi
                          • SZABO AGNES
                            Hello everyone! I m new on gothic and I m concerned more about the gepids in Romania (i had written my licence degree about them). If you have any seggestions
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 17, 2003
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hello everyone! I'm new on gothic and I'm concerned
                              more about the gepids in Romania (i had written my
                              licence degree about them). If you have any
                              seggestions about them, please write!

                              __________________________________
                              Do you Yahoo!?
                              SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                              http://sbc.yahoo.com
                            • faltin2001
                              ... Hello Ravi, I am not a historian, just an interested layman. Best, Dirk
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 18, 2003
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
                                <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
                                > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                                > > ---
                                >
                                > Thanks for the patience.
                                >
                                > You do see why it is important to get views of scholars like
                                > yourselves and have this material assessed and critiqued.
                                >
                                > This is very helpful.
                                >
                                > Ravi

                                Hello Ravi,

                                I am not a historian, just an interested layman.

                                Best,
                                Dirk
                              • Francisc Czobor
                                ... Me too. Francisc
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 18, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
                                  > <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
                                  > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                                  > > > ---
                                  > >
                                  > > Thanks for the patience.
                                  > >
                                  > > You do see why it is important to get views of scholars like
                                  > > yourselves and have this material assessed and critiqued.
                                  > >
                                  > > This is very helpful.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ravi
                                  >
                                  > Hello Ravi,
                                  >
                                  > I am not a historian, just an interested layman.
                                  >
                                  > Best,
                                  > Dirk

                                  Me too.
                                  Francisc
                                • Ravi Chaudhary
                                  ... Well, let me re phrase that, laymen, who have put the time and eenergy in , and have acquired a scholarly base. Let us keep exploring this and other
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 18, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                                    > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Ravi Chaudhary"
                                    > > <ravichaudhary2000@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "faltin2001" <dirk@s...> wrote:
                                    > > > > ---
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Thanks for the patience.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > You do see why it is important to get views of scholars like
                                    > > > yourselves and have this material assessed and critiqued.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > This is very helpful.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Ravi
                                    > >
                                    > > Hello Ravi,
                                    > >
                                    > > I am not a historian, just an interested layman.
                                    > >
                                    > > Best,
                                    > > Dirk
                                    >
                                    > Me too.
                                    > Francisc

                                    Well, let me re phrase that, 'laymen,' who have put the time and
                                    eenergy in , and have acquired a scholarly base.

                                    Let us keep exploring this and other issues. There is much that we do
                                    not know, and it is a pleasure to explore these areas with people who
                                    have that as a common interest

                                    Ravi
                                  • faltin2001
                                    ... Hi, I am interested in the Gepids also. Apart from a general interest in this gens, I am particularly interested in the very rare coins minted under
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 30, 2003
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, SZABO AGNES <kicsim21@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hello everyone! I'm new on gothic and I'm concerned
                                      > more about the gepids in Romania (i had written my
                                      > licence degree about them). If you have any
                                      > seggestions about them, please write!



                                      Hi, I am interested in the Gepids also. Apart from a general interest
                                      in this gens, I am particularly interested in the very rare coins
                                      minted under Gepidic rule at and around Sirmium in the 6th century. I
                                      have a few of those myself.

                                      best
                                      Dirk







                                      >
                                      > __________________________________
                                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                                      > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                                      > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                                    • Francisc Czobor
                                      Hello, Agnes! Are you from Romania? You have a Hungarian name, as I have, although I m from Romania. The Gepids in Romania are an interesting issue. They did
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jun 30, 2003
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hello, Agnes!

                                        Are you from Romania? You have a Hungarian name, as I have, although
                                        I'm from Romania.
                                        The Gepids in Romania are an interesting issue. They did stay on the
                                        territory of todays Romania (mainly in Transylvania) more than the
                                        proper Goths (Visigoths in 4th century, Ostrogoths in 5th century).
                                        Therefore, also the putative Old Germanic loanwords in Romanian are
                                        interpreted as being rather of Gepidic origin than of Gothic (which
                                        in my view makes no big difference, since Gothic and Gepidic were
                                        probably almost the same language).

                                        Üdvözöllek,
                                        Francisc (Feri) Czobor

                                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, SZABO AGNES <kicsim21@y...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hello everyone! I'm new on gothic and I'm concerned
                                        > more about the gepids in Romania (i had written my
                                        > licence degree about them). If you have any
                                        > seggestions about them, please write!
                                        >
                                        > __________________________________
                                        > Do you Yahoo!?
                                        > SBC Yahoo! DSL - Now only $29.95 per month!
                                        > http://sbc.yahoo.com
                                      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.