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[gothic-l] Gutiska Namôns

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  • jdm314@aol.com
    Hails! Just a thought for onomastics- people often seem to come to this group asking for information on Gothic names. I was thinking a fun activity might be to
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 31, 1999
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      Hails! Just a thought for onomastics- people often seem to come to this
      group asking for information on Gothic names. I was thinking a fun
      activity might be to compile a list of names, not necessarily as they
      would have been used by the Goths, but as would be used by us on the
      list.
      Er, that came out a bit convoluted. What I mean is, a list of common
      names in the modern western world as they would be given in Gothic. A
      whole lot of biblical names are already attested, Greco-Roman names can
      be transliterated and adapted as was done by Wulfila, and Germanic
      names could be calqued over. (Celtic, Slavic and other names will,
      unfortunately, be a bit harder)
      So just to get you guys started, here are some off the top of my head:

      Andy Andraías
      Ardashir Artaksaírksus
      Beth *Aílizabaíþ (declension?)
      Bill *Wiljahilms
      Deric *Þiudareiks
      Emily *Áimilia
      John Ïôhannês [acc. -ên/-ê, gen -is/-ês, dat -ê/-ên]
      Justin *Ïusteinus
      Mary Maria, Marja [acc -an, gen -ins, dat -in]
      Mat Matþaíus
      Moyshe Môsês [gen. -êzis, dat. -êza]
      Netanyahu *Naþanias
      Paul Pawlus
      Sara *Sara
      Vicky *Wiktôria
      Wendy *Wunjafrêda [??]
      Zach Zakarias

      And so on. Any takers or requests?
    • jdm314@aol.com
      jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=707 ... in his ... baby-talk ... Yes, I was aware of this, though not the
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 31, 1999
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        jdm31-@... wrote:
        original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=707
        > >Wendy *Wunjafrêda [??]
        >
        > Wendy's actually a recent innovation, popularized by J.M. Barrie
        in his
        > play and book Peter Pan; I believe the word was supposed to be
        baby-talk
        > for "friend", i.e. fwend > fwendy > wendy.

        Yes, I was aware of this, though not the fwend part. I just tend to
        equate it with Winifred for the purposes of equating it with names in
        other languages. Perhaps I should have used Jennifer or Geneviève
        instead.


        >
        > Winifred might be *Winifrithus "friend-peace".

        Ooh! Thanks!

        >
        > Here's some more:
        >
        > Abe, Abraham Abraham
        > Alex, Alexander, Sandy Alaiksandrus
        > Ann, Anne, Anna Anna
        > Bart, Bartholomew Barthaulaumaius
        > Charles, Charlie, Chuck, Karl Kairls

        I was just trying to figure this one out myself, and not getting
        anywhere, mainly because I couldn't find any source that gave a
        Proto-Germanic for this. What is it, *Kirlaz? How does the Latin
        Carolus fit into this? There's the Russian korol "king" too, but in
        that case, the second o could EASILY be secondary.

        > Constance, Connie Kustantia
        > David: Daweid
        > Dorothy, Dorothea: Daurithaia
        > Edgar: Audagais
        > Edmund: Audamunds
        > Edward: Audawards
        > Edwin: Audawins
        > Eunice: Aiwneika
        > Fred, Freddy, Frederick, Friedrich: Frithareiks
        > George: Gaiaurgius
        > Henry, Hank, Heinrich: Haimareiks
        > James, Jim, Jimmy, Jake, Jacob: Iakob

        Actually James Jim and Jimmy are Ïakobus, not Ïakob. That is, believe
        it or not, an important distinction. I mean, the source of the two
        names is identical, but the reflexes are different in numerous
        languages.
        Jack supposedly actuall comes from Dutch [jank@] (spelling?), a
        diminutive of John. Nevertheless, I agree with you in listing it under
        Jacob, as in Modern English it's definitely become a nickname for that
        name instead.


        > Joe, Joey, Joseph: Iosef
        > Levi: Laiwweis
        > Luke: Lukas
        > Madeline, Maddy, Lena: Magdalene
        > Mark, Marcus: Markus
        > Martha: Martha:
        > Mary: Marja
        > Matt, Matthew: Matthaius
        > Pete, Peter: Paitrus
        > Phil, Philip: Filippus
        > Richard,Rich, Rick, Dick: Reikhardus
        > Rob, Robert,Bob, Bobby: Hrothabairhts
        > Ronald, Ron, Ronny: Raginawalds
        > Salome: Salome
        > Simon: Seimon
        > Tim, Timothy: Teimauthaius
        > Tom, Tommy, Thomas: Thomas
        >
        > Thus Bart Simpson = Barthaulaumaius Seimonissunus: "Ni habais ku!"

        Walwjands ana þamma grundáu hlahjands [jah ku habands]

        >
        > *Ku isn't actually attested in Gothic, although it must have
        existed and
        > been an indispensable word; I can only guess at how it would be
        declined in
        > Gothic, but I imagine something like baurgs, i.e.:
        > S P
        > N kus kus
        > A ku kus
        > G kus kue (or kuwe?)
        > D ku kuim (or kuwim?)
        >
        > Cf. the declension of ON kyr: kyr, ku, kyr, ku; kyr, kyr, kua, kum
        (with
        > long vowels in each case).

        Cool, wish I could help you with that guess, but I don't feel
        qualified there.

        I was trying to come up with more names, but you knocked my socks off
        here, I'll have to compare lists, but I don't think there was anything
        I didn't have.
        >
        > /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
        > \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David
        Salo
        > <dsalo@...> <>
        >
        >
      • David Salo
        ... Wendy s actually a recent innovation, popularized by J.M. Barrie in his play and book Peter Pan; I believe the word was supposed to be baby-talk for
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 31, 1999
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          >Wendy *Wunjafrêda [??]

          Wendy's actually a recent innovation, popularized by J.M. Barrie in his
          play and book Peter Pan; I believe the word was supposed to be baby-talk
          for "friend", i.e. fwend > fwendy > wendy.

          Winifred might be *Winifrithus "friend-peace".

          Here's some more:

          Abe, Abraham Abraham
          Alex, Alexander, Sandy Alaiksandrus
          Ann, Anne, Anna Anna
          Bart, Bartholomew Barthaulaumaius
          Charles, Charlie, Chuck, Karl Kairls
          Constance, Connie Kustantia
          David: Daweid
          Dorothy, Dorothea: Daurithaia
          Edgar: Audagais
          Edmund: Audamunds
          Edward: Audawards
          Edwin: Audawins
          Eunice: Aiwneika
          Fred, Freddy, Frederick, Friedrich: Frithareiks
          George: Gaiaurgius
          Henry, Hank, Heinrich: Haimareiks
          James, Jim, Jimmy, Jake, Jacob: Iakob
          Joe, Joey, Joseph: Iosef
          Levi: Laiwweis
          Luke: Lukas
          Madeline, Maddy, Lena: Magdalene
          Mark, Marcus: Markus
          Martha: Martha:
          Mary: Marja
          Matt, Matthew: Matthaius
          Pete, Peter: Paitrus
          Phil, Philip: Filippus
          Richard,Rich, Rick, Dick: Reikhardus
          Rob, Robert,Bob, Bobby: Hrothabairhts
          Ronald, Ron, Ronny: Raginawalds
          Salome: Salome
          Simon: Seimon
          Tim, Timothy: Teimauthaius
          Tom, Tommy, Thomas: Thomas

          Thus Bart Simpson = Barthaulaumaius Seimonissunus: "Ni habais ku!"

          *Ku isn't actually attested in Gothic, although it must have existed and
          been an indispensable word; I can only guess at how it would be declined in
          Gothic, but I imagine something like baurgs, i.e.:
          S P
          N kus kus
          A ku kus
          G kus kue (or kuwe?)
          D ku kuim (or kuwim?)

          Cf. the declension of ON kyr: kyr, ku, kyr, ku; kyr, kyr, kua, kum (with
          long vowels in each case).

          /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
          \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David Salo
          <dsalo@...> <>
        • jdm314@aol.com
          jdm31-@aol.com wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=712 ... Well, I may be wrong. Old English ceorl (the noun) implies *kerlaz
          Message 4 of 8 , Sep 1, 1999
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            jdm31-@... wrote:
            original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=712
            >
            Well, I may be wrong. Old English ceorl (the noun) implies *kerlaz =

            I should know this, I suppose, but is that the etymon of churl?

            > kairls, but Old Norse karl suggests *karlaz = karls, and I'm not sure
            which
            > side of the equation Gothic would fall on, and I don't have the
            resources
            > on hand to look up what the leading lights of Germanic studies have
            said on
            > the subject -- too often my difficulty, I'm afraid! Possibly both
            just

            Same here ;)

            > reflect an IE e/o ablaut, e.g.. a root with different forms
            *ger-/*gor-.
            > Very probably we are missing an original vowel between the r and the
            l;
            > though by the time of Charles Martel or Charlemagne, I think that the
            > Frankish name was just Karl, and the Latin Carolus reflects the
            insertion
            > of a "svarabhakti" vowel.

            I really wish I could find that book of mine on names in Latin. It was
            published by the Vatican and gives all sorts of details on traditional
            latinizations of non-Roman names, and also etymologies, though it
            insists on using OHG for ALL it's pan-germanic roots.

            >
            > >Actually James Jim and Jimmy are Ïakobus, not Ïakob. That is, believe
            > >it or not, an important distinction. I mean, the source of the two
            > >names is identical, but the reflexes are different in numerous
            > >languages.
            >
            > I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for
            "James"?

            We certainly could, as I believe Iacomus is attested, but I wouldn't
            recommend it, afterall both Ïakob and Ïakobus are attested in our
            Gothic texts, so why bother adding a new coining? Furthermore no one
            bothers to use Iacomus in Latin anyway ;)


            -Ïustinus
            >
            >
            > /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
            > \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David
            Salo
            > <dsalo@...> <>
            >
            >
          • David Salo
            ... Well, I may be wrong. Old English ceorl (the noun) implies *kerlaz = kairls, but Old Norse karl suggests *karlaz = karls, and I m not sure which side of
            Message 5 of 8 , Sep 1, 1999
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              > I was just trying to figure this one out myself, and not getting
              >anywhere, mainly because I couldn't find any source that gave a
              >Proto-Germanic for this. What is it, *Kirlaz? How does the Latin
              >Carolus fit into this? There's the Russian korol "king" too, but in
              >that case, the second o could EASILY be secondary.

              Well, I may be wrong. Old English ceorl (the noun) implies *kerlaz =
              kairls, but Old Norse karl suggests *karlaz = karls, and I'm not sure which
              side of the equation Gothic would fall on, and I don't have the resources
              on hand to look up what the leading lights of Germanic studies have said on
              the subject -- too often my difficulty, I'm afraid! Possibly both just
              reflect an IE e/o ablaut, e.g.. a root with different forms *ger-/*gor-.
              Very probably we are missing an original vowel between the r and the l;
              though by the time of Charles Martel or Charlemagne, I think that the
              Frankish name was just Karl, and the Latin Carolus reflects the insertion
              of a "svarabhakti" vowel.

              >Actually James Jim and Jimmy are Ïakobus, not Ïakob. That is, believe
              >it or not, an important distinction. I mean, the source of the two
              >names is identical, but the reflexes are different in numerous
              >languages.

              I suppose we could even have a Late Latin-based Iakomus for "James"?


              /\ WISTR LAG WIGS RAIHTS
              \/ WRAIQS NU IST <> David Salo
              <dsalo@...> <>
            • etsasse@acsu.buffalo.edu
              ... *kerlaz = ... which ... resources ... said on ... just ... *ger-/*gor-. ... l; ... insertion ... This reminds me of the Runic form of the Germanic word for
              Message 6 of 8 , Sep 1, 1999
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                > Well, I may be wrong. Old English ceorl (the noun) implies
                *kerlaz =
                > kairls, but Old Norse karl suggests *karlaz = karls, and I'm not sure
                which
                > side of the equation Gothic would fall on, and I don't have the
                resources
                > on hand to look up what the leading lights of Germanic studies have
                said on
                > the subject -- too often my difficulty, I'm afraid! Possibly both
                just
                > reflect an IE e/o ablaut, e.g.. a root with different forms
                *ger-/*gor-.
                > Very probably we are missing an original vowel between the r and the
                l;
                > though by the time of Charles Martel or Charlemagne, I think that the
                > Frankish name was just Karl, and the Latin Carolus reflects the
                insertion
                > of a "svarabhakti" vowel.


                This reminds me of the Runic form of the Germanic word for 'raven',
                Icelandic 'hrafn' (Gothic '?') where the Runic form has vowels inserted
                between EVERY future consonant cluster so that we get a highly proto-,
                yet attested, form 'harabana'. I could see the same happening here as
                *karalaz or something, but maybe with some front vowel after the k-
                instead to account for the palatalization found in 'churl' later on?
                Consider this English list:

                brid -> bird
                crul -> curl
                x -> kral (= churl)

                Could x have equaled 'kral' at some point? And if it did, then do
                the additional forms from other languages like karl with the
                svarabhakti between k- and -r show that *karal- was possible?
              • g.pagliarulo@iol.it
                g.pagliarul-@iol.it wrote: original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=701 ... this ... can ... Aileisabaith (not Ailizabaith) doesn t need
                Message 7 of 8 , Sep 3, 1999
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                  g.pagliarul-@... wrote:
                  original article:http://www.egroups.com/group/gothic-l/?start=701
                  > Hails! Just a thought for onomastics- people often seem to come to
                  this
                  > group asking for information on Gothic names. I was thinking a fun
                  > activity might be to compile a list of names, not necessarily as they
                  > would have been used by the Goths, but as would be used by us on the
                  > list.
                  > Er, that came out a bit convoluted. What I mean is, a list of common
                  > names in the modern western world as they would be given in Gothic. A
                  > whole lot of biblical names are already attested, Greco-Roman names
                  can
                  > be transliterated and adapted as was done by Wulfila, and Germanic
                  > names could be calqued over. (Celtic, Slavic and other names will,
                  > unfortunately, be a bit harder)
                  > So just to get you guys started, here are some off the top of my
                  head:
                  >
                  > Andy Andraías
                  > Ardashir Artaksaírksus
                  > Beth *Aílizabaíþ (declension?)
                  Aileisabaith (not Ailizabaith) doesn't need any asterisk, since it is
                  well attested (Luke's gospel, 9 times). About its declension: Wulfila
                  treats this name as an undeclined noun.
                  >
                • jdm314@aol.com
                  ... DAMN! I need to get better Gothic sources. This text does not appear in Wright, and so neither does the name. Thanks for bringing this to my attention.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Sep 3, 1999
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                    > > Andy Andraías
                    > > Ardashir Artaksaírksus
                    > > Beth *Aílizabaíþ (declension?)
                    > Aileisabaith (not Ailizabaith) doesn't need any asterisk, since it is
                    > well attested (Luke's gospel, 9 times). About its declension: Wulfila
                    > treats this name as an undeclined noun.

                    DAMN! I need to get better Gothic sources. This text does not appear
                    in Wright, and so neither does the name. Thanks for bringing this to my
                    attention.
                    Anyway, a couple more notes on this thread... Mr. Salo listed
                    Reikhardus for Richard. I just wanted to ask- why not Reikahardus?
                    Wright of course says taht the stem letter is usually there but
                    sporadically dropped, so without a Goth handy we couldn't assume either
                    way was wrong. Did you just drop it because the next root begins with
                    an h?
                    As for the subject header, I see that namna is in fact the correct
                    form. I also see that I typed nams.. oops, I meant to type it in as
                    namins or something like that... which is still wrong, but at least not
                    as obnoxiously wrong as nams.


                    -Ïusteinus
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