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  • Francisc Czobor
    Hails, Greg in the Romanian language, balan means white or light-colored , with reference to horses (and sometimes it means also blonde , with reference
    Message 1 of 19 , Mar 19, 2003
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      Hails, Greg

      in the Romanian language, "balan" means "white" or "light-colored",
      with reference to horses (and sometimes it means also "blonde", with
      reference to humans). The word seems to be of Slavic origin (Old
      Slavonic belu "white"). It is interesting that the word mentioned by
      Procopius is identical with the modern Romanian form.

      Francisc

      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, greg scaff <g_scaff@y...> wrote:
      >
      > Hails,
      >
      > I am curious as to the origin of the word "balan", mentioned
      in Procopius' History of the Wars, V, XVlll, in my vol, p
      173, ",,,and his whole body was dark grey, except that his face from
      the top of his head to the nostrils was the purest white. Such a
      horse the Greeks call "phalius" and the barbarians "balan." Within
      the context of this passage it seems that Procopius was referring to
      Ostrogoths as the barbarians in question, but not definatively. I'm
      aware that "balan" is unattested as a Gothic word. Can it be
      identified as having a known Iranic/Turkic/Arabic or other origin?
      Are there any Germanic cognates? Has anyone studied this word
      before? I would appreciate your ideas and comments, thank you.
      >
      > Greg
      >
      >
      >
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    • matthew carver
      Koebler suggests Go. *Bala- refers orig. to white , and spec. a horse with a white marking, i.e. a blaze (cf. Byz. balas ), prob.
      Message 2 of 19 , Mar 19, 2003
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        Koebler suggests
        Go. *Bala- refers orig. to 'white', and spec. a horse with a white
        marking, i.e. a "blaze" (cf. Byz. 'balas'), prob. < s. germ. *bala-
        "white, light, shining" < PIE (Pok.) *bha'-(1). THere is the gothic adj.
        *bal-s, PIE *bhel-(1) v. ref. (Pok.). It may be an extended form in
        *blagks < *blankaz "white" (> it. bianco, fr. blanc).

        There is of course baltic similarity in Lith. balts "white", Rus. byel-.


        -Matthew
        On Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 12:39 AM, faltin2001 wrote:

        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, åÇÏÒÏ× ÷ÌÁÄÉÍÉÒ <vegorov@i...> wrote:
        >> Hi Greg!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
        > com:office:office" />
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> I have not a direct answer on your question
        >> regarding the "barbaric" word "balan".
        >> But I draw your attention to the Russian word
        >> "bulany" as a horse color. "Bulany" is regularly
        >> translated in English as "dun" though old
        >> Russian explanatory dictionaries treat the notion
        >> as "ore-yellow, yellowish of diverse tints,
        >> with the mane and tail being black or deep-brown,
        >> and usually with a strap along spinal column".
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> I do not know the exact origin of "bulany" but
        >> Turkic (Kuman) extraction looks most probable.
        >> I guess you should search in this direction.
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Good luck,
        >>
        >> Vladimir
        >>
        >
        >
        > Hi Vladimir,
        >
        > perhaps 'belyi' Russian for white is a possible link? Not sure
        > what 'white' would be in Old Slavonic.
        >
        > cheers
        > Dirk
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >>
        >>
        >> -----Original Message-----
        >> From: greg scaff [mailto:g_scaff@y...]
        >> Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 4:22 AM
        >> To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
        >> Subject: [gothic-l] (unknown)
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >> Hails,
        >>
        >> I am curious as to the origin of the word "balan", mentioned
        > in Procopius' History of the Wars, V, XVlll, in my vol, p
        > 173, ",,,and his whole body was dark grey, except that his face from
        > the top of his head to the nostrils was the purest white. Such a
        > horse the Greeks call "phalius" and the barbarians "balan." Within
        > the context of this passage it seems that Procopius was referring to
        > Ostrogoths as the barbarians in question, but not definatively. I'm
        > aware that "balan" is unattested as a Gothic word. Can it be
        > identified as having a known Iranic/Turkic/Arabic or other origin?
        > Are there any Germanic cognates? Has anyone studied this word
        > before? I would appreciate your ideas and comments, thank you.
        >>
        >> Greg
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>
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      • matthew carver
        hot - heits south(ward) - adv. sunthr north(ern) - adj. naurths (adv. = ? naurthr) on - ana (et al.) off - ab (et al.) feel - ? you have to name what exactly
        Message 3 of 19 , Mar 19, 2003
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          hot - heits
          south(ward) - adv. sunthr
          north(ern) - adj. naurths (adv. = ? naurthr)
          on - ana (et al.)
          off - ab (et al.)
          feel - ? you have to name what exactly is felt, i think, or use words to
          mean touch (tekan) or think (hugjan, munan, thugkjan, frathjan etc.)
          feelings - sense is 'frathi' or 'gahugds' - again, not common modern
          usage.
          close - galukan (verb to close), adj. (near, tight) lukns, adv. nehw(a)
          finish - ustiuhan
          blue - not attested. ? *blews
          gray - (adj) grews, greiseis, hasws, falws; (n) hawi
          brown - (adj) bruns
          yellow - not attested. but yellowish, pale (grayish) = falws. use golden
          (gultheins) or red (ruths) or bright (bairhts) perhaps.

          it really requires one to think differently about domains of meaning and
          examine one's idioms and ways of expression in comparison with those of
          gothic.

          -matthew


          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
          > is this particular reading in gothic or what. is balan gothic for
          > horse- i dont know. but maybe you might know some word meanings i hadnt
          > found in wrights glossary or the german-gotisch glossary. here they
          > are-
          > hot,south,north,on,off,feel,feelings,close,finish,blue,gray,brown,yellow----ik
          > andbeiden izwar andwaurdwa.swa larsizuhain andbeiden skura
          > seina--nightly bath? afletan mein dwalipa waurdei, im swe sidondan
          > mein gutiska.---awiulidon bropar
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
          > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
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          >
        • Егоров Владимир
          Hi Dirk! I do not think Russian belyi to have connection to Procopius balan .
          Message 4 of 19 , Mar 19, 2003
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            Hi Dirk!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />



            I do not think Russian "belyi" to have connection
            to Procopius' "balan". First, the transition
            a -> e (half-long narrow sound) is not characteristic
            for the Russian language. Second, the white color
            is very specific, while Procopius wrote explicitly
            about the "dark gray" color.

            Perhaps the mentioned Greek "phalios" could be
            a cognate of English "pale"?
            But this is another pair of shoes.



            Vladimir



            -----Original Message-----
            From: faltin2001 [mailto:dirk@...]
            Sent: Wednesday, March 19, 2003 11:40 AM
            To: gothic-l@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [gothic-l] Re: (unknown)


            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, ������ �������� <vegorov@i...> wrote:
            > Hi Greg!<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-
            com:office:office" />
            >


            Hi Vladimir,

            perhaps 'belyi' Russian for white is a possible link? Not sure
            what 'white' would be in Old Slavonic.

            cheers
            Dirk









            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • OSCAR HERRERA
            matthew carver wrote:hot - heits south(ward) - adv. sunthr north(ern) - adj. naurths (adv. = ? naurthr) on - ana (et al.) off - ab (et
            Message 5 of 19 , Mar 19, 2003
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              matthew carver <me@...> wrote:hot - heits
              south(ward) - adv. sunthr
              north(ern) - adj. naurths (adv. = ? naurthr)
              on - ana (et al.)
              off - ab (et al.)
              feel - ? you have to name what exactly is felt, i think, or use words to
              mean touch (tekan) or think (hugjan, munan, thugkjan, frathjan etc.)
              feelings - sense is 'frathi' or 'gahugds' - again, not common modern
              usage.
              close - galukan (verb to close), adj. (near, tight) lukns, adv. nehw(a)
              finish - ustiuhan
              blue - not attested. ? *blews
              gray - (adj) grews, greiseis, hasws, falws; (n) hawi
              brown - (adj) bruns
              yellow - not attested. but yellowish, pale (grayish) = falws. use golden
              (gultheins) or red (ruths) or bright (bairhts) perhaps.

              it really requires one to think differently about domains of meaning and
              examine one's idioms and ways of expression in comparison with those of
              gothic.

              -matthew


              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
              > is this particular reading in gothic or what. is balan gothic for
              > horse- i dont know. but maybe you might know some word meanings i hadnt
              > found in wrights glossary or the german-gotisch glossary. here they
              > are-
              > hot,south,north,on,off,feel,feelings,close,finish,blue,gray,brown,yellow----ik
              > andbeiden izwar andwaurdwa.swa larsizuhain andbeiden skura
              > seina--nightly bath? afletan mein dwalipa waurdei, im swe sidondan
              > mein gutiska.---awiulidon bropar
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
              > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              >


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              couple of more questions- in the word your which is izwar,is izwar pronounced as just the war part as var,so your saying var-your.also in reading other peoples work in gothic i noticed most of the words are suffixed different than their original meaning counterparts.do you know of a more teachable book and glossary other that i have free access to on internet.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • matthew carver
              oscar - izwar is pronounced IZ-war. The w is always w , not like v. It is the semivowel, not the bilabial continuant, in other words, like english w or
              Message 6 of 19 , Mar 19, 2003
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                oscar -

                izwar is pronounced IZ-war. The 'w' is always 'w', not like v.
                It is the semivowel, not the bilabial continuant, in other words,
                like english 'w' or perhaps spanish 'hu'. there are links on my
                website http://www.matthewcarver.com/gutrazda/. i think
                david salo had some lessons online, but i forget the exact
                address.

                -matthew

                On Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 07:42 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                >

                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                > couple of more questions- in the word your which is izwar,is izwar
                > pronounced as just the war part as var,so your saying var-your.also in
                > reading other peoples work in gothic i noticed most of the words are
                > suffixed different than their original meaning counterparts.do you know
                > of a more teachable book and glossary other that i have free access to
                > on internet.
              • OSCAR HERRERA
                matthew carver wrote:oscar - izwar is pronounced IZ-war. The w is always w , not like v. It is the semivowel, not the bilabial
                Message 7 of 19 , Mar 20, 2003
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                  matthew carver <me@...> wrote:oscar -

                  izwar is pronounced IZ-war. The 'w' is always 'w', not like v.
                  It is the semivowel, not the bilabial continuant, in other words,
                  like english 'w' or perhaps spanish 'hu'. there are links on my
                  website http://www.matthewcarver.com/gutrazda/. i think
                  david salo had some lessons online, but i forget the exact
                  address.

                  -matthew

                  On Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 07:42 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                  >

                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                  > couple of more questions- in the word your which is izwar,is izwar
                  > pronounced as just the war part as var,so your saying var-your.also in
                  > reading other peoples work in gothic i noticed most of the words are
                  > suffixed different than their original meaning counterparts.do you know
                  > of a more teachable book and glossary other that i have free access to
                  > on internet.


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                  when you use words as verbs such word can be used differently and spelled differently---here are some examples---cut,cutter,cutting-----wait,waiting---look,looking---wait is beiden,waiting is beidendan?----cut is bimaitan, cutter is ?, cutting is bimaitandan---another words whatis appropriate suffixes for words like this are standard-+---also more words in gothic---ice,floor,wrong

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • OSCAR HERRERA
                  matthew carver wrote:oscar - izwar is pronounced IZ-war. The w is always w , not like v. It is the semivowel, not the bilabial
                  Message 8 of 19 , Mar 20, 2003
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                    matthew carver <me@...> wrote:oscar -

                    izwar is pronounced IZ-war. The 'w' is always 'w', not like v.
                    It is the semivowel, not the bilabial continuant, in other words,
                    like english 'w' or perhaps spanish 'hu'. there are links on my
                    website http://www.matthewcarver.com/gutrazda/. i think
                    david salo had some lessons online, but i forget the exact
                    address.

                    -matthew

                    On Wednesday, March 19, 2003, at 07:42 AM, OSCAR HERRERA wrote:
                    >

                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                    > couple of more questions- in the word your which is izwar,is izwar
                    > pronounced as just the war part as var,so your saying var-your.also in
                    > reading other peoples work in gothic i noticed most of the words are
                    > suffixed different than their original meaning counterparts.do you know
                    > of a more teachable book and glossary other that i have free access to
                    > on internet.


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                    is the word for stop-gadaubjon.how about--- which,already---are you sure blue is blews.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Grsartor@aol.com
                    Sorry for the tardy response. I suggest for a translation of Fire of life, make holy this place and keep out all evil : Fon þizos libainais, weihais þana
                    Message 9 of 19 , Mar 21, 2003
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                      Sorry for the tardy response.

                      I suggest for a translation of "Fire of life, make holy this place and keep
                      out all evil":

                      "Fon þizos libainais, weihais þana staþ warjaizuh all þata ubil."

                      Perhaps "hina" would be a better choice for "this" than "þana", which has a
                      sense more like "the" or "that"; on the other hand, I am not sure how free we
                      should feel to use forms like "hina", and "himma". The surviving examples of
                      their use seem to suggest that they were mainly employed in particular
                      phrases, such as "himma daga", on this day.

                      Gerry T.


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • greg scaff
                      Hails, My thanks go to Dirk, Vladimir, Oscar, and of course Matthew for your interest and insightful comments re: balan . I guess another question would be
                      Message 10 of 19 , Mar 25, 2003
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                        Hails,

                        My thanks go to Dirk, Vladimir, Oscar, and of course Matthew for your interest and insightful comments re: "balan". I guess another question would be how accurate Procopius was in rendering a foreign word. Oh well. I find it compelling that it means the same in Romania today,or has the same form, as Francisc says, and wonder if their is any possible actual connection between the Romanian form and the possible Gothic?

                        cheers,

                        Greg






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                      • OSCAR HERRERA
                        greg scaff wrote: Hails, My thanks go to Dirk, Vladimir, Oscar, and of course Matthew for your interest and insightful comments re:
                        Message 11 of 19 , Mar 25, 2003
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                          greg scaff <g_scaff@...> wrote:

                          Hails,

                          My thanks go to Dirk, Vladimir, Oscar, and of course Matthew for your interest and insightful comments re: "balan". I guess another question would be how accurate Procopius was in rendering a foreign word. Oh well. I find it compelling that it means the same in Romania today,or has the same form, as Francisc says, and wonder if their is any possible actual connection between the Romanian form and the possible Gothic?

                          cheers,

                          Greg






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                          ik naup gaskierjan af samma waurdws. sind---interest(ing),key,paper,minute(s),bath(bathes),color,paint,horse,fox,sex(y)----awiulidon bropar

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • matthew carver
                          hails greg- It may be possible. The horse-riding tribes of the steppes, Scythians and Sarmations seem to have loaned a few words to germanic languages in
                          Message 12 of 19 , Mar 26, 2003
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                            hails greg-

                            It may be possible. The horse-riding tribes of the steppes, Scythians
                            and Sarmations seem to have loaned a few words to germanic languages in
                            general, or perhaps they came through Gothic (s.t. via Celtic, as marah-
                            'horse', cf. Green, Language & History...): paida 'leather coat' (< ?
                            riding coat), path- 'path (orig. a specific 'Scythian' path?), faths
                            'leader' (exhibiting the decimal model of the Persian/Iranian military
                            grouping). In Green, p. 81: "the possible presence of Gothic (or Gepid)
                            loanwords in Rumanian." (ref.: Bierbrauer [1994], 130. Diculescu [1921],
                            420ff. et al.)

                            -matthew


                            On Tuesday, March 25, 2003, at 04:33 PM, greg scaff wrote:

                            >
                            >
                            > Hails,
                            >
                            > My thanks go to Dirk, Vladimir, Oscar, and of course Matthew for your
                            > interest and insightful comments re: "balan". I guess another question
                            > would be how accurate Procopius was in rendering a foreign word. Oh
                            > well. I find it compelling that it means the same in Romania today,or
                            > has the same form, as Francisc says, and wonder if their is any
                            > possible actual connection between the Romanian form and the possible
                            > Gothic?
                            >
                            > cheers,
                            >
                            > Greg
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ---------------------------------
                            > Do you Yahoo!?
                            > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank
                            > email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
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                            >
                            >
                          • greg scaff
                            Hails Matthew, Very interesting-thank you, and thanks for the references. cheers, Greg matthew carver wrote:hails greg- It may be
                            Message 13 of 19 , Mar 26, 2003
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                              Hails Matthew,
                              Very interesting-thank you, and thanks for the references.
                              cheers,
                              Greg
                              matthew carver <me@...> wrote:hails greg-

                              It may be possible. The horse-riding tribes of the steppes, Scythians
                              and Sarmations seem to have loaned a few words to germanic languages in
                              general, or perhaps they came through Gothic (s.t. via Celtic, as marah-
                              'horse', cf. Green, Language & History...): paida 'leather coat' (< ?
                              riding coat), path- 'path (orig. a specific 'Scythian' path?), faths
                              'leader' (exhibiting the decimal model of the Persian/Iranian military
                              grouping). In Green, p. 81: "the possible presence of Gothic (or Gepid)
                              loanwords in Rumanian." (ref.: Bierbrauer [1994], 130. Diculescu [1921],
                              420ff. et al.)

                              -matthew


                              On Tuesday, March 25, 2003, at 04:33 PM, greg scaff wrote:

                              >
                              >
                              > Hails,
                              >
                              > My thanks go to Dirk, Vladimir, Oscar, and of course Matthew for your
                              > interest and insightful comments re: "balan". I guess another question
                              > would be how accurate Procopius was in rendering a foreign word. Oh
                              > well. I find it compelling that it means the same in Romania today,or
                              > has the same form, as Francisc says, and wonder if their is any
                              > possible actual connection between the Romanian form and the possible
                              > Gothic?
                              >
                              > cheers,
                              >
                              > Greg
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Do you Yahoo!?
                              > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop!
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                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >


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                            • OSCAR HERRERA
                              matthew carver wrote:hails greg- It may be possible. The horse-riding tribes of the steppes, Scythians and Sarmations seem to have
                              Message 14 of 19 , Mar 29, 2003
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                                matthew carver <me@...> wrote:hails greg-

                                It may be possible. The horse-riding tribes of the steppes, Scythians
                                and Sarmations seem to have loaned a few words to germanic languages in
                                general, or perhaps they came through Gothic (s.t. via Celtic, as marah-
                                'horse', cf. Green, Language & History...): paida 'leather coat' (< ?
                                riding coat), path- 'path (orig. a specific 'Scythian' path?), faths
                                'leader' (exhibiting the decimal model of the Persian/Iranian military
                                grouping). In Green, p. 81: "the possible presence of Gothic (or Gepid)
                                loanwords in Rumanian." (ref.: Bierbrauer [1994], 130. Diculescu [1921],
                                420ff. et al.)

                                -matthew


                                On Tuesday, March 25, 2003, at 04:33 PM, greg scaff wrote:

                                >
                                >
                                > Hails,
                                >
                                > My thanks go to Dirk, Vladimir, Oscar, and of course Matthew for your
                                > interest and insightful comments re: "balan". I guess another question
                                > would be how accurate Procopius was in rendering a foreign word. Oh
                                > well. I find it compelling that it means the same in Romania today,or
                                > has the same form, as Francisc says, and wonder if their is any
                                > possible actual connection between the Romanian form and the possible
                                > Gothic?
                                >
                                > cheers,
                                >
                                > Greg
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                hails matt--- ik swa naup samma waurdws du gaskeiran. her sind---stop,horse,sex,bugs, interest,do,tiger,lion,bear,paint,color,second,minute,animal,elephant,eagle,falcon. ive reading the corpus of the wulfila project and the translations are assumed and are not exact translations. also are crimean gothic words right translations. like eggs-ada or car-waghen and so forth. another word is cheese........ good luck--oscar

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