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Re: [gothic-l] Digest Number 650

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  • Ingemar Nordgren
    ... I can indeed agree with you that this is a possibility however hard to prove. ... In Dirks opinion, yes. Wessén among else thinks diffrent. ... We
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 9, 2002
      > Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 04:14:47 -0000
      > From: "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
      > Dear Konrad,


      You wrote:


      > Greetings my fellow students!

      ...
      > I am as yet undecided in these matters. There are certainly parallel
      > forms in a number of alphabets. Given that the "viking" age Goths in
      > Scandinavia attributed the origin of the runes to Óðinn/Wóðins, I
      > think it highly likely that their migrant cousins in the south did
      > likewise. Nevertheless, religion and alphabetic history are two
      > different things. Given the distribution and period of the extant
      > inscriptions in the older form of the futhark, however, it seems
      > highly likely that some migrating Scandinavian group/groups had
      > something to do with the alphabet´s adoption. The fact that runic
      > inscriptions later became a phenomenon almost exclusively peculiar
      > to Scandinavia proper also suggests that the older alphabet was
      > somehow closely connected to one or more Scandinavian groups abroad.
      > The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia. Such an
      > origination would, however, suggest that some group/groups from
      > abroad travelled to Scandinavia for trade purposes. Given close ties
      > between Scandinavians and their descendants abroad, such traders
      > might well have been every bit as Gothic as the relatives back home.
      > What are your thoughts in these matters, my fellow students?
      >
      > Regards,
      > Konrad.
      I can indeed agree with you that this is a possibility however hard to prove.

      > From: "faltin2001" <dirk@...>
      > Subject: Re: Turkish Runes/Etruscan Runes and Skandza-merchants
      >
      > --- In gothic-l@y..., "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson@y...> wrote:
      >
      >> Greetings my fellow students!
      >>

      >> Given the very close phonological relationship between old Gothic
      >> and its younger Scandinavian descendants,

      >
      > The East Germanic language of Gothic has no younger Scandinavian
      > descendants. Have a look at the O. Dahl's book 'The Origin of the
      > Scandinavian languages'. Dahl shows that Gothic is not closer to any
      > Scandinavian language than it is to all other Germanic languages.


      In Dirks opinion, yes. Wessén among else thinks diffrent.



      > What are 'viking age' Goths in Scandinavia. Are you talking about
      > north Germanic Gauts? These are completely different people!


      We discusssed this before. Hachmann for one agrees the Gauts were also
      Goths. Same goes for professor Th. Andersson and for that sake Svennung.
      Andersson says they were all Gothic folks and so I say in my
      dissertation too. Different folks in a sense but definitely related in
      namegiving and most sure having been in continuing contact. Cf the very
      sharp comments of George Knysch holding the same position as myself.


      >> Scandinavia attributed the origin of the runes to Óðinn/Wóðins, I
      >> think it highly likely that their migrant cousins in the south did
      >> likewise.
      > >
      > There is a recent discussion with one of the leading experts on
      > Gothic history over on the Germanic list. From this you can learn
      > that the Gauts had no migrant cousins in form of East Germanic Goths
      > in the south. Also, a casual reading of some of the standard works on
      > Gothic history may help you to get a clearer view on the difference
      > between North Germanic Gauts and East Germanic Goths. (e.g. P.
      > Heather, H. Wolfram, W. Pohl etc. )


      As Tore has shown Pohl does not definitely deny a connection and nor
      does Wolfram - on the contrary. Wolfram was one of my best contacts when
      writing my paper.


      > Nevertheless, religion and alphabetic history are two
      >
      >> different things. Given the distribution and period of the extant
      >> inscriptions in the older form of the futhark, however, it seems
      >> highly likely that some migrating Scandinavian group/groups had
      >> something to do with the alphabet´s adoption. The fact that runic
      >> inscriptions later became a phenomenon almost exclusively peculiar
      >> to Scandinavia proper also suggests that the older alphabet was
      >> somehow closely connected to one or more Scandinavian groups abroad.
      >> The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia.


      The younger could have originated there - yes - but the old seems to
      have originated elsewhere but, as you say, Scandinavians might well have
      been involved. The old runic coiné is the same everywhere with few
      exeptions according to Makaev.


      >
      > The earliest runic inscriptions appear in southern Denmark and
      > northern Germany.


      Indeed



      > Such an origination would, however, suggest that some group/groups from
      >> abroad travelled to Scandinavia for trade purposes. Given close
      > > ties > >> between Scandinavians and their descendants abroad
      > > > such traders > >> might well have been every bit as Gothic as the relatives back home.
      >> What are your thoughts in these matters, my fellow students?


      As stated above - yes.

      > My thought is that you are in dire need of some reading on Gothic
      > history, dated post 1970. Perhaps a few essays on
      > Scandinavian 'Gothicsism' would also help.


      Dear Dirk, you should read some still not translated papers of Swedish
      universities and you should also give a closer regard to Anders Kaliff.
      There is work in prgress to publish some material with at least English
      summaries - long ones - in a new magazine where I am involved. Within a
      year I hope this can be realised but till then the material is the
      property of the authors.


      Best

      Ingemar
      -------------------------------------------------------------

      Ingemar Nordgren, Ph.D.
      Sjögrässtigen 15
      SE-533 73 KÄLLBY
      Sweden
      46-510-541851
    • faltin2001
      ... parallel ... in ... did ... peculiar ... abroad. ... ties ... home. ... to prove. Dear Ingemar, I cannot believe that you of all people endorse a statement
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 10, 2002
        --- In gothic-l@y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren@e...> wrote:
        > > Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 04:14:47 -0000
        > > From: "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson@y...>
        > > Dear Konrad,
        >
        >
        > You wrote:
        >
        >
        > > Greetings my fellow students!
        >
        > ...
        > > I am as yet undecided in these matters. There are certainly
        parallel
        > > forms in a number of alphabets. Given that the "viking" age Goths
        in
        > > Scandinavia attributed the origin of the runes to Óðinn/Wóðins, I
        > > think it highly likely that their migrant cousins in the south
        did
        > > likewise. Nevertheless, religion and alphabetic history are two
        > > different things. Given the distribution and period of the extant
        > > inscriptions in the older form of the futhark, however, it seems
        > > highly likely that some migrating Scandinavian group/groups had
        > > something to do with the alphabet´s adoption. The fact that runic
        > > inscriptions later became a phenomenon almost exclusively
        peculiar
        > > to Scandinavia proper also suggests that the older alphabet was
        > > somehow closely connected to one or more Scandinavian groups
        abroad.
        > > The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia. Such an
        > > origination would, however, suggest that some group/groups from
        > > abroad travelled to Scandinavia for trade purposes. Given close
        ties
        > > between Scandinavians and their descendants abroad, such traders
        > > might well have been every bit as Gothic as the relatives back
        home.
        > > What are your thoughts in these matters, my fellow students?
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > > Konrad.


        > I can indeed agree with you that this is a possibility however hard
        to prove.




        Dear Ingemar,

        I cannot believe that you of all people endorse a statement of the
        type given above.



        > >
        > > The East Germanic language of Gothic has no younger Scandinavian
        > > descendants. Have a look at the O. Dahl's book 'The Origin of the
        > > Scandinavian languages'. Dahl shows that Gothic is not closer to
        any
        > > Scandinavian language than it is to all other Germanic languages.
        >
        >
        > In Dirks opinion, yes. Wessén among else thinks diffrent.
        >

        My opinion does not matter, since I am not a linguist. What matters
        are the views of modern Scandinavianists like Elert and Dahl and they
        reject Wessen's view entirely.




        >
        >
        > > What are 'viking age' Goths in Scandinavia. Are you talking about
        > > north Germanic Gauts? These are completely different people!
        >
        >
        > We discusssed this before. Hachmann for one agrees the Gauts were
        also
        > Goths.


        Not really, especially not in the sense that they came from
        Scandinavia, which Hachmann believed he proved that they did not.



        >
        > > There is a recent discussion with one of the leading experts on
        > > Gothic history over on the Germanic list. From this you can learn
        > > that the Gauts had no migrant cousins in form of East Germanic
        Goths
        > > in the south. Also, a casual reading of some of the standard
        works on
        > > Gothic history may help you to get a clearer view on the
        difference
        > > between North Germanic Gauts and East Germanic Goths. (e.g. P.
        > > Heather, H. Wolfram, W. Pohl etc. )
        >
        >
        > As Tore has shown Pohl does not definitely deny a connection


        Well, Pohl presents the same view like the other mainstream scholars.
        A mass migration of Scandinavian Gauts who than became Goths can be
        ruled out. Some contact, which set in after the establishment of the
        Gotones is, however, possible.



        > and nor
        > does Wolfram - on the contrary.



        Well, Wolfram would certainly not say that the Goths came from
        Scandinavia let alone were Scandinavians.




        > >> The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia.
        >
        >
        > The younger could have originated there - yes - but the old seems
        to
        > have originated elsewhere but, as you say, Scandinavians might well
        have
        > been involved. The old runic coiné is the same everywhere with few
        > exeptions according to Makaev.





        Why is it always so important that Scandinavians were involved, that
        everything was invented in Scandinavia, that everybody who mattered
        came from Scandinavia?? Whyyyyyy???;-)



        >
        >
        > >
        > > The earliest runic inscriptions appear in southern Denmark and
        > > northern Germany.
        >
        >
        > Indeed
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Dear Dirk, you should read some still not translated papers of
        Swedish
        > universities and you should also give a closer regard to Anders
        Kaliff.
        > There is work in prgress to publish some material with at least
        English
        > summaries - long ones - in a new magazine where I am involved.
        Within a
        > year I hope this can be realised but till then the material is the
        > property of the authors.


        Pointing to unavailable material as evidence is not really helpful.
        An argument that is not commonly available in print can hardly be
        verified. Perhaps there is also material being prepared somewhere to
        prove the opposite? Anyway, I am sure that people like W. Pohl and A.
        Schwarcz etc. are fully aware of the latest developments in their
        field of expertise. The latest book by W. Pohl was published in 2002!

        cheers,
        Dirk









        >
        >
        > Best
        >
        > Ingemar
        > -------------------------------------------------------------
        >
        > Ingemar Nordgren, Ph.D.
        > Sjögrässtigen 15
        > SE-533 73 KÄLLBY
        > Sweden
        > 46-510-541851
      • M. Carver
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 10, 2002
          faltin2001 wrote:

          > --- In gothic-l@y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren@e...> wrote:
          > > > Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 04:14:47 -0000
          > > > From: "konrad_oddsson" <konrad_oddsson@y...>
          > > > Dear Konrad,
          > >
          > >
          > > You wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > > Greetings my fellow students!
          > >
          > > ...
          > > > I am as yet undecided in these matters. There are certainly
          > parallel
          > > > forms in a number of alphabets. Given that the "viking" age Goths
          > in
          > > > Scandinavia attributed the origin of the runes to Ó?inn/Wó?ins, I
          > > > think it highly likely that their migrant cousins in the south
          > did
          > > > likewise. Nevertheless, religion and alphabetic history are two
          > > > different things. Given the distribution and period of the extant
          > > > inscriptions in the older form of the futhark, however, it seems
          > > > highly likely that some migrating Scandinavian group/groups had
          > > > something to do with the alphabet´s adoption. The fact that runic
          > > > inscriptions later became a phenomenon almost exclusively
          > peculiar
          > > > to Scandinavia proper also suggests that the older alphabet was
          > > > somehow closely connected to one or more Scandinavian groups
          > abroad.
          > > > The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia. Such an
          > > > origination would, however, suggest that some group/groups from
          > > > abroad travelled to Scandinavia for trade purposes. Given close
          > ties
          > > > between Scandinavians and their descendants abroad, such traders
          > > > might well have been every bit as Gothic as the relatives back
          > home.
          > > > What are your thoughts in these matters, my fellow students?
          > > >
          > > > Regards,
          > > > Konrad.
          >
          > > I can indeed agree with you that this is a possibility however hard
          > to prove.
          >
          > Dear Ingemar,
          >
          > I cannot believe that you of all people endorse a statement of the
          > type given above.
          >
          > > >
          > > > The East Germanic language of Gothic has no younger Scandinavian
          > > > descendants. Have a look at the O. Dahl's book 'The Origin of the
          > > > Scandinavian languages'. Dahl shows that Gothic is not closer to
          > any
          > > > Scandinavian language than it is to all other Germanic languages.
          > >
          > >
          > > In Dirks opinion, yes. Wessén among else thinks diffrent.
          > >
          >
          > My opinion does not matter, since I am not a linguist. What matters
          > are the views of modern Scandinavianists like Elert and Dahl and they
          > reject Wessen's view entirely.
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > > What are 'viking age' Goths in Scandinavia. Are you talking about
          > > > north Germanic Gauts? These are completely different people!
          > >
          > >
          > > We discusssed this before. Hachmann for one agrees the Gauts were
          > also
          > > Goths.
          >
          > Not really, especially not in the sense that they came from
          > Scandinavia, which Hachmann believed he proved that they did not.
          >
          > >
          > > > There is a recent discussion with one of the leading experts on
          > > > Gothic history over on the Germanic list. From this you can learn
          > > > that the Gauts had no migrant cousins in form of East Germanic
          > Goths
          > > > in the south. Also, a casual reading of some of the standard
          > works on
          > > > Gothic history may help you to get a clearer view on the
          > difference
          > > > between North Germanic Gauts and East Germanic Goths. (e.g. P.
          > > > Heather, H. Wolfram, W. Pohl etc. )
          > >
          > >
          > > As Tore has shown Pohl does not definitely deny a connection
          >
          > Well, Pohl presents the same view like the other mainstream scholars.
          > A mass migration of Scandinavian Gauts who than became Goths can be
          > ruled out. Some contact, which set in after the establishment of the
          > Gotones is, however, possible.
          >
          > > and nor
          > > does Wolfram - on the contrary.
          >
          > Well, Wolfram would certainly not say that the Goths came from
          > Scandinavia let alone were Scandinavians.
          >
          > > >> The alphabet could also have originated in Scandinavia.
          > >
          > >
          > > The younger could have originated there - yes - but the old seems
          > to
          > > have originated elsewhere but, as you say, Scandinavians might well
          > have
          > > been involved. The old runic coiné is the same everywhere with few
          > > exeptions according to Makaev.
          >
          > Why is it always so important that Scandinavians were involved, that
          > everything was invented in Scandinavia, that everybody who mattered
          > came from Scandinavia?? Whyyyyyy???;-)
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > >
          > > > The earliest runic inscriptions appear in southern Denmark and
          > > > northern Germany.
          > >
          > >
          > > Indeed
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Dear Dirk, you should read some still not translated papers of
          > Swedish
          > > universities and you should also give a closer regard to Anders
          > Kaliff.
          > > There is work in prgress to publish some material with at least
          > English
          > > summaries - long ones - in a new magazine where I am involved.
          > Within a
          > > year I hope this can be realised but till then the material is the
          > > property of the authors.
          >
          > Pointing to unavailable material as evidence is not really helpful.
          > An argument that is not commonly available in print can hardly be
          > verified. Perhaps there is also material being prepared somewhere to
          > prove the opposite? Anyway, I am sure that people like W. Pohl and A.
          > Schwarcz etc. are fully aware of the latest developments in their
          > field of expertise. The latest book by W. Pohl was published in 2002!
          >
          > cheers,
          > Dirk
          >
          > >
          > >
          > > Best
          > >
          > > Ingemar
          > > -------------------------------------------------------------
          > >
          > > Ingemar Nordgren, Ph.D.
          > > Sjögrässtigen 15
          > > SE-533 73 KÄLLBY
          > > Sweden
          > > 46-510-541851
          >
          >
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