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Old Turkish Runic Alphabet - what are your thoughts?

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  • konrad_oddsson
    Some interesting pages about an old Turkish runic alphabet: http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
    Message 1 of 16 , Oct 7, 2002
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      Some interesting pages about an old Turkish runic alphabet:

      http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
      http://www.turcman.btinternet.co.uk/futhark-alphabet.htm

      Any thoughts or responses to the Turkish connection? Did the migrant
      Goths adopt the alphabet and bring it back to their Scandinavian
      homeland? Did Gothic merchants from the homeland pick it up while
      trading and mingling with their kin in the south of Europe? Consider
      the dating of the oldest complete inscribed futhark (found on the
      island of Gotland and dating from around 100-200AD according to the
      usual estimates I have seen). The Christian scholars have argued
      various theories for years connecting the old alphabet to Latin,
      Greek, Etruscan, Phonecian, Hebrew and so forth. There seems to be a
      clear bias in favour of peoples identified with the Jewish-Christian
      tradition. Finding the origins of the Scandinavian futhark in a
      cultural exchange between Turks and non-Jewish-Christian Goths would
      be hard for the Abrahamic purists in Scandinavia to swallow. I would
      be interested to know your thoughts.

      Regards,
      Konrad.
    • Tore Gannholm
      ... The Kylver stone as it as known as is dated to the end of the 4th century, Whilst the Moos runes are dated to the 3rd century. Tore ... --
      Message 2 of 16 , Oct 7, 2002
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        >Some interesting pages about an old Turkish runic alphabet:
        >
        >http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
        >http://www.turcman.btinternet.co.uk/futhark-alphabet.htm
        >
        >Any thoughts or responses to the Turkish connection? Did the migrant
        >Goths adopt the alphabet and bring it back to their Scandinavian
        >homeland? Did Gothic merchants from the homeland pick it up while
        >trading and mingling with their kin in the south of Europe? Consider
        >the dating of the oldest complete inscribed futhark (found on the
        >island of Gotland and dating from around 100-200AD according to the
        >usual estimates I have seen).

        The Kylver stone as it as known as is dated to the end of the 4th century,
        Whilst the Moos runes are dated to the 3rd century.
        Tore


        >The Christian scholars have argued
        >various theories for years connecting the old alphabet to Latin,
        >Greek, Etruscan, Phonecian, Hebrew and so forth. There seems to be a
        >clear bias in favour of peoples identified with the Jewish-Christian
        >tradition. Finding the origins of the Scandinavian futhark in a
        >cultural exchange between Turks and non-Jewish-Christian Goths would
        >be hard for the Abrahamic purists in Scandinavia to swallow. I would
        >be interested to know your thoughts.
        >
        >Regards,
        >Konrad.
        >


        --
      • konrad_oddsson
        Haill Tore! ... century, Whilst the Moos runes are dated to the 3rd century. ... Yes, that is more correct than the dates from my memory. Þanka þír fyrir
        Message 3 of 16 , Oct 8, 2002
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          Haill Tore!

          > The Kylver stone as it as known as is dated to the end of the 4th
          century, Whilst the Moos runes are dated to the 3rd century.
          > Tore

          Yes, that is more correct than the dates from my memory.


          Þanka þír fyrir útgáfu þína á laghum auk sagu Guta.
          Mír findsk Gutniska wisa iafnfagurt auk swistr hennar Norþroena.
          Þár iru líka fagrar í twísangwi:

          Kaupir þú uxa
          þá rayn hann umb þría daga
          lastir fylgia hánum twair
          ainn if hann aigi dragr
          anþar if hann briútr.

          Lest þú góða bauk
          þá gaym hana allt þitt líf
          lastir fylgja henni aldrigi.

          (G.royn/N.reyn = GN. rayn; G.briautr/N.brýtr = GN. briútr; bauk =
          bók - samanber N. beyki (G. boyki?) Engilsk "beech" G.triú/N.tré;
          G.Goym/N.geym = GN. gaym); Gutniska(N.Gotneska)Norþroena(G.Norþrýna)

          Gangi þír wel,

          Konráð Oddsson,
          Ainn westrnorþrýnn Guti
        • Sahin Ahmet
          That is really fantastic! I dont understand why scholars have overlooked that. They dont want to associate with Turks perhaps? But the scientific proof is
          Message 4 of 16 , Oct 8, 2002
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            That is really fantastic! I dont understand why scholars have overlooked that. They dont want to associate with Turks perhaps? But the scientific proof is here. Now I understand what bias may lead to and how scientists are so biased. They knew this fact for sure.
            konrad_oddsson wrote:Some interesting pages about an old Turkish runic alphabet:

            http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
            http://www.turcman.btinternet.co.uk/futhark-alphabet.htm

            Any thoughts or responses to the Turkish connection? Did the migrant
            Goths adopt the alphabet and bring it back to their Scandinavian
            homeland? Did Gothic merchants from the homeland pick it up while
            trading and mingling with their kin in the south of Europe? Consider
            the dating of the oldest complete inscribed futhark (found on the
            island of Gotland and dating from around 100-200AD according to the
            usual estimates I have seen). The Christian scholars have argued
            various theories for years connecting the old alphabet to Latin,
            Greek, Etruscan, Phonecian, Hebrew and so forth. There seems to be a
            clear bias in favour of peoples identified with the Jewish-Christian
            tradition. Finding the origins of the Scandinavian futhark in a
            cultural exchange between Turks and non-Jewish-Christian Goths would
            be hard for the Abrahamic purists in Scandinavia to swallow. I would
            be interested to know your thoughts.

            Regards,
            Konrad.


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          • Bertil Haggman
            To complicate matters it might be of interest to consider the Strahlenberg exploration of Siberia. He was a Swedish POW in Tobolsk, Siberia, but was allowed by
            Message 5 of 16 , Oct 8, 2002
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              To complicate matters it might be of interest to
              consider the Strahlenberg exploration of Siberia.
              He was a Swedish POW in Tobolsk, Siberia, but
              was allowed by the Russians to join an expedition
              to the then unknown part of Russia in 1720.
              On return he drew the first more precise map
              of Siberia published in his book _Das Nord- und
              Ostliche Theil von Europa und Asia_ in 1730.

              On the expedition was another Swedish POW and
              artist, Karl Schulman. At the river Jenisey he painted
              a monument in stone with an unknown language.
              It was not until the 1890s that the Danish scholar
              Vilhelm Thomsen deciphered the picture of Schulman.
              What was depicted were Old Turkish runes (see report
              by Thomsen in 1893 ("Déchiffrement des inscriptions
              de l'Orkhon et de l'Iénnisei - Notice preliminaire", Helsinki
              Finland). The Orkhon stones were another group of
              old Turkish runes. It is plausible that Thomsen related the
              runes to Gothic.

              Gothically

              Bertil

              > That is really fantastic! I dont understand why scholars have overlooked that. They dont want to associate with Turks perhaps? But the scientific proof is here. Now I understand what bias may lead to and how scientists are so biased. They knew this fact for sure.
              > konrad_oddsson wrote:Some interesting pages about an old Turkish runic alphabet:
              >
              > http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
              > http://www.turcman.btinternet.co.uk/futhark-alphabet.htm
              >
              > Any thoughts or responses to the Turkish connection? Did the migrant
              > Goths adopt the alphabet and bring it back to their Scandinavian
              > homeland? Did Gothic merchants from the homeland pick it up while
              > trading and mingling with their kin in the south of Europe? Consider
              > the dating of the oldest complete inscribed futhark (found on the
              > island of Gotland and dating from around 100-200AD according to the
              > usual estimates I have seen). The Christian scholars have argued
              > various theories for years connecting the old alphabet to Latin,
              > Greek, Etruscan, Phonecian, Hebrew and so forth. There seems to be a
              > clear bias in favour of peoples identified with the Jewish-Christian
              > tradition. Finding the origins of the Scandinavian futhark in a
              > cultural exchange between Turks and non-Jewish-Christian Goths would
              > be hard for the Abrahamic purists in Scandinavia to swallow. I would
              > be interested to know your thoughts.
            • faltin2001
              As Soeren showed on the Germanic list, the resemblence of Germanic and Turkish runes is superficial at best. Also, none of the professional runologists seem to
              Message 6 of 16 , Oct 8, 2002
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                As Soeren showed on the Germanic list, the resemblence of Germanic
                and Turkish runes is superficial at best. Also, none of the
                professional runologists seem to regard this as a serious option.
                Moreover, to accuse those scholars of a pro-Jewish/Latin bias is
                bordering on the absurd. In addition, the Goths did neither invent
                the runes nor did they transmit the runes anywhere. This theory is
                long obsolete. And as Tore has pointed out the dating of the rune
                stones mentioned in the original post is all wrong. The earliest
                runic inscription are found in the areas of southern Denmark and
                northern Germany.

                Dirk





                --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
                >
                > That is really fantastic! I dont understand why scholars have
                overlooked that. They dont want to associate with Turks perhaps? But
                the scientific proof is here. Now I understand what bias may lead to
                and how scientists are so biased. They knew this fact for sure.
                > konrad_oddsson wrote:Some interesting pages about an old Turkish
                runic alphabet:
                >
                > http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
                > http://www.turcman.btinternet.co.uk/futhark-alphabet.htm
                >
                > Any thoughts or responses to the Turkish connection? Did the
                migrant
                > Goths adopt the alphabet and bring it back to their Scandinavian
                > homeland? Did Gothic merchants from the homeland pick it up while
                > trading and mingling with their kin in the south of Europe?
                Consider
                > the dating of the oldest complete inscribed futhark (found on the
                > island of Gotland and dating from around 100-200AD according to the
                > usual estimates I have seen). The Christian scholars have argued
                > various theories for years connecting the old alphabet to Latin,
                > Greek, Etruscan, Phonecian, Hebrew and so forth. There seems to be
                a
                > clear bias in favour of peoples identified with the Jewish-
                Christian
                > tradition. Finding the origins of the Scandinavian futhark in a
                > cultural exchange between Turks and non-Jewish-Christian Goths
                would
                > be hard for the Abrahamic purists in Scandinavia to swallow. I
                would
                > be interested to know your thoughts.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Konrad.
                >
                >
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              • Sahin Ahmet
                what did soeren show? How about the striking resemlance and the meaningful translation of the scripts in gokturk language.The letters are almost the same as
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 8, 2002
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                  what did soeren show? How about the striking resemlance and the meaningful translation of the scripts in "gokturk" language.The letters are almost the same as gokturk alphabet. what is the translation in old germanic?. Scientists are truly biased. Hebrew, Latin ridiculuos considerations. Gokturks were nomads, they were everywhere in eurasia may be also in scandinavia. Hebrews in scandinavia a serious option? one of the scholars in israel argued that mayan civilization is of jewish origin!
                  this is kind of usuall for some.

                  faltin2001 wrote:
                  As Soeren showed on the Germanic list, the resemblence of Germanic
                  and Turkish runes is superficial at best. Also, none of the
                  professional runologists seem to regard this as a serious option.
                  Moreover, to accuse those scholars of a pro-Jewish/Latin bias is
                  bordering on the absurd. In addition, the Goths did neither invent
                  the runes nor did they transmit the runes anywhere. This theory is
                  long obsolete. And as Tore has pointed out the dating of the rune
                  stones mentioned in the original post is all wrong. The earliest
                  runic inscription are found in the areas of southern Denmark and
                  northern Germany.

                  Dirk





                  --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > That is really fantastic! I dont understand why scholars have
                  overlooked that. They dont want to associate with Turks perhaps? But
                  the scientific proof is here. Now I understand what bias may lead to
                  and how scientists are so biased. They knew this fact for sure.
                  > konrad_oddsson wrote:Some interesting pages about an old Turkish
                  runic alphabet:
                  >
                  > http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
                  > http://www.turcman.btinternet.co.uk/futhark-alphabet.htm
                  >
                  > Any thoughts or responses to the Turkish connection? Did the
                  migrant
                  > Goths adopt the alphabet and bring it back to their Scandinavian
                  > homeland? Did Gothic merchants from the homeland pick it up while
                  > trading and mingling with their kin in the south of Europe?
                  Consider
                  > the dating of the oldest complete inscribed futhark (found on the
                  > island of Gotland and dating from around 100-200AD according to the
                  > usual estimates I have seen). The Christian scholars have argued
                  > various theories for years connecting the old alphabet to Latin,
                  > Greek, Etruscan, Phonecian, Hebrew and so forth. There seems to be
                  a
                  > clear bias in favour of peoples identified with the Jewish-
                  Christian
                  > tradition. Finding the origins of the Scandinavian futhark in a
                  > cultural exchange between Turks and non-Jewish-Christian Goths
                  would
                  > be hard for the Abrahamic purists in Scandinavia to swallow. I
                  would
                  > be interested to know your thoughts.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Konrad.
                  >
                  >
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                  blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
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                  Service.
                  >
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                  >
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                • Sahin Ahmet
                  sorry I did not get what you mean, whould you summarize? Bertil Haggman wrote:To complicate matters it might be of interest to consider the Strahlenberg
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 8, 2002
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                    sorry I did not get what you mean, whould you summarize?
                    Bertil Haggman wrote:To complicate matters it might be of interest to
                    consider the Strahlenberg exploration of Siberia.
                    He was a Swedish POW in Tobolsk, Siberia, but
                    was allowed by the Russians to join an expedition
                    to the then unknown part of Russia in 1720.
                    On return he drew the first more precise map
                    of Siberia published in his book _Das Nord- und
                    Ostliche Theil von Europa und Asia_ in 1730.

                    On the expedition was another Swedish POW and
                    artist, Karl Schulman. At the river Jenisey he painted
                    a monument in stone with an unknown language.
                    It was not until the 1890s that the Danish scholar
                    Vilhelm Thomsen deciphered the picture of Schulman.
                    What was depicted were Old Turkish runes (see report
                    by Thomsen in 1893 ("D�chiffrement des inscriptions
                    de l'Orkhon et de l'I�nnisei - Notice preliminaire", Helsinki
                    Finland). The Orkhon stones were another group of
                    old Turkish runes. It is plausible that Thomsen related the
                    runes to Gothic.

                    Gothically

                    Bertil

                    > That is really fantastic! I dont understand why scholars have overlooked that. They dont want to associate with Turks perhaps? But the scientific proof is here. Now I understand what bias may lead to and how scientists are so biased. They knew this fact for sure.
                    > konrad_oddsson wrote:Some interesting pages about an old Turkish runic alphabet:
                    >
                    > http://www.antalya-ws.com/futhark/index.htm
                    > http://www.turcman.btinternet.co.uk/futhark-alphabet.htm
                    >
                    > Any thoughts or responses to the Turkish connection? Did the migrant
                    > Goths adopt the alphabet and bring it back to their Scandinavian
                    > homeland? Did Gothic merchants from the homeland pick it up while
                    > trading and mingling with their kin in the south of Europe? Consider
                    > the dating of the oldest complete inscribed futhark (found on the
                    > island of Gotland and dating from around 100-200AD according to the
                    > usual estimates I have seen). The Christian scholars have argued
                    > various theories for years connecting the old alphabet to Latin,
                    > Greek, Etruscan, Phonecian, Hebrew and so forth. There seems to be a
                    > clear bias in favour of peoples identified with the Jewish-Christian
                    > tradition. Finding the origins of the Scandinavian futhark in a
                    > cultural exchange between Turks and non-Jewish-Christian Goths would
                    > be hard for the Abrahamic purists in Scandinavia to swallow. I would
                    > be interested to know your thoughts.




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                  • faltin2001
                    ... meaningful translation of the scripts in gokturk language.The letters are almost the same as gokturk alphabet. what is the translation in old germanic?.
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 8, 2002
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                      --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > what did soeren show? How about the striking resemlance and the
                      meaningful translation of the scripts in "gokturk" language.The
                      letters are almost the same as gokturk alphabet. what is the
                      translation in old germanic?.


                      Sahin, have a look at the relevant posts on the Germanic-List (search
                      for 'turkish runes').




                      Scientists are truly biased. Hebrew, Latin ridiculuos
                      considerations.


                      Serious scholars (for example those working on the Runenprojekt at
                      the University of Kiel) are not biased, this is simply a ridiculous
                      assertation.



                      Gokturks were nomads, they were everywhere in eurasia may be also in
                      scandinavia.


                      You need more that outstanding evidence to support a theory arguing
                      that Gokturks lived in Scandinavia. Please provide some evidence
                      please.





                      Hebrews in scandinavia a serious option?


                      Nobody argues seriously that Hebrew was the basis for the runes or
                      that Hebrew was spoken in Scandinavia



                      one of the scholars in israel argued that mayan civilization is of
                      jewish origin!
                      > this is kind of usuall for some.




                      This is just as crazy as the assertation that Gokturks or Hebrews
                      lived in ancient Scandinavia.


                      Dirk
                    • Sahin Ahmet
                      I am not a member of germanic list and I do not want to be, Please provide me with a related link and quotes other than the list. Please bring the
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 9, 2002
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                        I am not a member of germanic list and I do not want to be, Please provide me with a related link and quotes other than the list. Please bring the argumentation into the list. If you wish not, you can email me personally.
                        I dont understand why you rule out turkish presence in scandinavia which may be very temporary. The alleged translation mention the word migration and it was about a man who bravely stayed rather than migrating.
                        regards.
                        faltin2001 wrote:--- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > what did soeren show? How about the striking resemlance and the
                        meaningful translation of the scripts in "gokturk" language.The
                        letters are almost the same as gokturk alphabet. what is the
                        translation in old germanic?.


                        Sahin, have a look at the relevant posts on the Germanic-List (search
                        for 'turkish runes').




                        Scientists are truly biased. Hebrew, Latin ridiculuos
                        considerations.


                        Serious scholars (for example those working on the Runenprojekt at
                        the University of Kiel) are not biased, this is simply a ridiculous
                        assertation.



                        Gokturks were nomads, they were everywhere in eurasia may be also in
                        scandinavia.


                        You need more that outstanding evidence to support a theory arguing
                        that Gokturks lived in Scandinavia. Please provide some evidence
                        please.





                        Hebrews in scandinavia a serious option?


                        Nobody argues seriously that Hebrew was the basis for the runes or
                        that Hebrew was spoken in Scandinavia



                        one of the scholars in israel argued that mayan civilization is of
                        jewish origin!
                        > this is kind of usuall for some.




                        This is just as crazy as the assertation that Gokturks or Hebrews
                        lived in ancient Scandinavia.


                        Dirk




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                      • george knysh
                        ... *****GK: It doesn t cost anything, and reading what intelligent people have to say about issues of interest (if only peripheral) to you will surely do you
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 9, 2002
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                          --- Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am not a member of germanic list and I do not want
                          > to be,

                          *****GK: It doesn't cost anything, and reading what
                          intelligent people have to say about issues of
                          interest (if only peripheral) to you will surely do
                          you no harm. After consulting the archives you may
                          freely leave*****

                          > I dont understand why you rule out turkish presence
                          > in scandinavia which may be very temporary.

                          *****GK: Basically for the same reason any even
                          moderately scientifically inclined individual of any
                          ethnicity would rule out the presence of Berbers or
                          Polynesian seafarers, or aliens from Mars or Planet X
                          for that matter: namely, there is not a shred of
                          evidence of any kind to back up this idea, neither
                          archaeological, nor historical, nor linguistic, nor
                          folkloric, nor you name it. The first evidence (though
                          not all accept this) known to me of contact between
                          Turks and Scandinavians is that adduced by Pritsak
                          with respect to the development of the younger futhark
                          (I omit the contact between Goths and Huns since only
                          a very few of the former might be considered even
                          "ex-Scandinavians" let alone the real thing,
                          individuals excepted.)******



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                        • Tore Gannholm
                          ... George, You are very categoric here. Still the matter intrigues me. We can see from the archaeological material that Gotland has trade relations with the
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 9, 2002
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                            >--- Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> I am not a member of germanic list and I do not want
                            >> to be,
                            >
                            >*****GK: It doesn't cost anything, and reading what
                            >intelligent people have to say about issues of
                            >interest (if only peripheral) to you will surely do
                            >you no harm. After consulting the archives you may
                            >freely leave*****
                            >
                            > > I dont understand why you rule out turkish presence
                            >> in scandinavia which may be very temporary.
                            >
                            >*****GK: Basically for the same reason any even
                            >moderately scientifically inclined individual of any
                            >ethnicity would rule out the presence of Berbers or
                            >Polynesian seafarers, or aliens from Mars or Planet X
                            >for that matter: namely, there is not a shred of
                            >evidence of any kind to back up this idea, neither
                            >archaeological, nor historical, nor linguistic, nor
                            >folkloric, nor you name it. The first evidence (though
                            >not all accept this) known to me of contact between
                            >Turks and Scandinavians is that adduced by Pritsak
                            >with respect to the development of the younger futhark
                            >(I omit the contact between Goths and Huns since only
                            >a very few of the former might be considered even
                            >"ex-Scandinavians" let alone the real thing,
                            >individuals excepted.)******
                            >


                            George,
                            You are very categoric here. Still the matter intrigues me.
                            We can see from the archaeological material that Gotland has trade
                            relations with the other side of the Ural back to Bronze age.

                            I found this on the web:
                            "At the height of their power the Huns absorbed a number of different
                            racial strains in their armies and assimilated the characteristics of
                            the populations of their environment, so that in Europe they
                            gradually lost their distinct Asian character; but even in their
                            pre-European period they were highly variable in their physical
                            characteristics, and of no easily determined ethnic or linguistic
                            identity. All accounts, however, agree in describing them as an
                            aggressive nomadic people of great vigor and comparatively low
                            cultural achievement, who had developed considerable skill in the
                            techniques of warfare, particularly in military horsemanship.
                            Before the beginning of their recorded European history, a tribe,
                            possibly related to the Huns, was known in western China as the
                            Xiongnu (Hsiung-nu), during the Earlier Han Dynasty (206 BC-AD 8).
                            Their power in the East was weakened during the following century,
                            and eventually they separated into two distinct camps, one of which,
                            amounting to about 50,000 families, went southward, while most of the
                            remainder, after attempting to maintain themselves on the Caspian
                            steppes, went west and northwest in search of new homes. Of those who
                            went northwest, a large number settled for a time on the banks of the
                            Volga River. In the second half of the 4th century AD, under a leader
                            called Balamir (flourished 4th century AD), or Balamber, they
                            advanced into the territories of the Alans, a powerful people
                            dwelling between the Volga and the Don rivers, and in a battle fought
                            on the banks of the Don routed the army of the Alans. "

                            Do we know anything about this?

                            I also read somewhere that they were good iron smiths. This goes well
                            with the above statement of considerable skill in the technique of
                            warfare.

                            When the Gotlanders were trading they also brought skilled artisans
                            voluntarily or by force? back to Gotland. That must be one of the
                            reasons why the Gotlanders were so skilled as Iron smiths, gold
                            smiths, making picture stones. Having the higest culture in all the
                            Baltic.

                            see the summary on
                            http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/beowulf_/kontakter/default.htm

                            Tore



                            --

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Sahin Ahmet
                            Dear George, I shall read the germanic list archieves as you suggest. Giving extreme examples like mars and polinezya does not quite explain why such a mobile
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 9, 2002
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                              Dear George,
                              I shall read the germanic list archieves as you suggest.
                              Giving extreme examples like mars and polinezya does not quite explain why such a mobile people like huns can never be in scandinavia even for a temporary period. The fact that science so far did not show so, does not necessarily implicate non presence. Scandinavia is not so far from the hungarian plains as hungarian plains from the altai mountains. As fast moving people huns may not have left too much evidence for their presence and as nomads they did not have architectural skills to leave behind.But surely they had a script of their own.
                              george knysh wrote:
                              --- Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > I am not a member of germanic list and I do not want
                              > to be,

                              *****GK: It doesn't cost anything, and reading what
                              intelligent people have to say about issues of
                              interest (if only peripheral) to you will surely do
                              you no harm. After consulting the archives you may
                              freely leave*****

                              > I dont understand why you rule out turkish presence
                              > in scandinavia which may be very temporary.

                              *****GK: Basically for the same reason any even
                              moderately scientifically inclined individual of any
                              ethnicity would rule out the presence of Berbers or
                              Polynesian seafarers, or aliens from Mars or Planet X
                              for that matter: namely, there is not a shred of
                              evidence of any kind to back up this idea, neither
                              archaeological, nor historical, nor linguistic, nor
                              folkloric, nor you name it. The first evidence (though
                              not all accept this) known to me of contact between
                              Turks and Scandinavians is that adduced by Pritsak
                              with respect to the development of the younger futhark
                              (I omit the contact between Goths and Huns since only
                              a very few of the former might be considered even
                              "ex-Scandinavians" let alone the real thing,
                              individuals excepted.)******



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                            • M. Carver
                              Hails! All participating members: Please conduct further inquiries into this thread in appropriate lists, not Gothic-L, unless you wish to discuss something
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 9, 2002
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                                Hails!

                                All participating members:
                                Please conduct further inquiries into this thread in appropriate lists, not Gothic-L, unless you wish to discuss something more closely related to Gothic. The thread has departed from its original, topical discussion. I do not consider general Scandinavian or Runic discussion topical, unless perhaps you are directly addressing the relationships of Goths and Turks through the context runic inscriptions.

                                golja thuk,

                                Matthaius

                                Sahin Ahmet wrote:

                                > Dear George,
                                > I shall read the germanic list archieves as you suggest.
                                > Giving extreme examples like mars and polinezya does not quite explain why such a mobile people like huns can never be in scandinavia even for a temporary period. The fact that science so far did not show so, does not necessarily implicate non presence. Scandinavia is not so far from the hungarian plains as hungarian plains from the altai mountains. As fast moving people huns may not have left too much evidence for their presence and as nomads they did not have architectural skills to leave behind.But surely they had a script of their own.
                                > george knysh wrote:
                                > --- Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > I am not a member of germanic list and I do not want
                                > > to be,
                                >
                                > *****GK: It doesn't cost anything, and reading what
                                > intelligent people have to say about issues of
                                > interest (if only peripheral) to you will surely do
                                > you no harm. After consulting the archives you may
                                > freely leave*****
                                >
                                > > I dont understand why you rule out turkish presence
                                > > in scandinavia which may be very temporary.
                                >
                                > *****GK: Basically for the same reason any even
                                > moderately scientifically inclined individual of any
                                > ethnicity would rule out the presence of Berbers or
                                > Polynesian seafarers, or aliens from Mars or Planet X
                                > for that matter: namely, there is not a shred of
                                > evidence of any kind to back up this idea, neither
                                > archaeological, nor historical, nor linguistic, nor
                                > folkloric, nor you name it. The first evidence (though
                                > not all accept this) known to me of contact between
                                > Turks and Scandinavians is that adduced by Pritsak
                                > with respect to the development of the younger futhark
                                > (I omit the contact between Goths and Huns since only
                                > a very few of the former might be considered even
                                > "ex-Scandinavians" let alone the real thing,
                                > individuals excepted.)******
                                >
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                              • wagnijo
                                ... explain why such a mobile people like huns can never be in scandinavia even for a temporary period. The fact that science so far did not show so, does not
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 9, 2002
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                                  --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear George,
                                  > I shall read the germanic list archieves as you suggest.
                                  > Giving extreme examples like mars and polinezya does not quite
                                  explain why such a mobile people like huns can never be in
                                  scandinavia even for a temporary period. The fact that science so far
                                  did not show so, does not necessarily implicate non presence.
                                  Scandinavia is not so far from the hungarian plains as hungarian
                                  plains from the altai mountains. As fast moving people huns may not
                                  have left too much evidence for their presence and as nomads they did
                                  not have architectural skills to leave behind.But surely they had a
                                  script of their own.
                                  > george knysh wrote:

                                  While there is no way of ruling out that a Hunnic raiding/scouting
                                  group reached Jutland it seems extremely improbable that they would
                                  have reached Scandinavia proper - their culture was most likely
                                  heavily seafaring challenged so they would need considerable time to
                                  move cavalry forces over seas, not even the local seafaring was geared
                                  to move large cavalry forces.

                                  But this is not the worst problem. The older Futhark come into use in
                                  the 1. or 2. century AD at the latest so it predates the Huns.
                                  The development of the younger Futhark from the older Futhark can be
                                  followed in the inscriptions and the first inscriptions with
                                  a partly younger Futhark is the Eggja-stone dated 650 and the Ribe
                                  skull dated 700 centuries after the Huns.

                                  Another problem is the fact that all longer inscriptions can be read
                                  in germanic even if the interpretation of a few is uncertain.
                                  If one was to put Turkish forward as a probable alternative he would
                                  have to put present readings and interpretations of a lot more than
                                  3 inscriptions and I dont even know how good these readings are.

                                  Finally you ought to take a little time comparing the futhark with
                                  the turkish runes, the latin and the greek alfabets and se where the
                                  similarities are.

                                  Cheers
                                  Soren Larsen
                                • george knysh
                                  ... *****GK: And the existence of trade routes going beyond the Urals from the West is also well attested in written sources (r.g. Herodotus gold mines
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Oct 10, 2002
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                                    --- Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@...> wrote:
                                    > We can see from the archaeological material that
                                    > Gotland has trade
                                    > relations with the other side of the Ural back to
                                    > Bronze age.

                                    *****GK: And the existence of trade routes going
                                    beyond the Urals from the West is also well attested
                                    in written sources (r.g. Herodotus' gold mines there).
                                    But it is generally believed that the proto-Turks
                                    lived as yet too far in the east for very meaningful
                                    contacts to develop before Hunnic times.*****
                                    >
                                    > I found this on the web:
                                    > "At the height of their power the Huns absorbed a
                                    > number of different
                                    > racial strains in their armies and assimilated the
                                    > characteristics of
                                    > the populations of their environment, so that in
                                    > Europe they
                                    > gradually lost their distinct Asian character; but
                                    > even in their
                                    > pre-European period they were highly variable in
                                    > their physical
                                    > characteristics, and of no easily determined ethnic
                                    > or linguistic
                                    > identity. All accounts, however, agree in describing
                                    > them as an
                                    > aggressive nomadic people of great vigor and
                                    > comparatively low
                                    > cultural achievement, who had developed considerable
                                    > skill in the
                                    > techniques of warfare, particularly in military
                                    > horsemanship.
                                    > Before the beginning of their recorded European
                                    > history, a tribe,
                                    > possibly related to the Huns, was known in western
                                    > China as the
                                    > Xiongnu (Hsiung-nu), during the Earlier Han Dynasty
                                    > (206 BC-AD 8).
                                    > Their power in the East was weakened during the
                                    > following century,
                                    > and eventually they separated into two distinct
                                    > camps, one of which,
                                    > amounting to about 50,000 families, went southward,
                                    > while most of the
                                    > remainder, after attempting to maintain themselves
                                    > on the Caspian
                                    > steppes, went west and northwest in search of new
                                    > homes. Of those who
                                    > went northwest, a large number settled for a time on
                                    > the banks of the
                                    > Volga River. In the second half of the 4th century
                                    > AD, under a leader
                                    > called Balamir (flourished 4th century AD), or
                                    > Balamber, they
                                    > advanced into the territories of the Alans, a
                                    > powerful people
                                    > dwelling between the Volga and the Don rivers, and
                                    > in a battle fought
                                    > on the banks of the Don routed the army of the
                                    > Alans. "
                                    >
                                    > Do we know anything about this?

                                    *****GK: Maenchen-Helfen and Pritsak have conclusively
                                    demonstrated that although dome Hunnic leaders (and
                                    later Bulgar leaders also)bore Iranic names (evidence
                                    of cultural contacts with such groups) the extant
                                    words of the Hunnic language are definitely Turkic.
                                    The Huns of the West are not known to have utilized a
                                    Runic script of their own.****
                                    >
                                    >


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