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Re: [gothic-l] Re: Counts of Coimbra ?

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  • Pat Christiansen
    Hi Ximenez: Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance. Ben F. E. Ximenez
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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      Hi Ximenez:
      Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
      Ben





      "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
      I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
      �may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
      �� Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
      occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
      However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (�Genetic
      diversity in the Iberian Peninsula� -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
      Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that � �the majority of Iberian [�mtDNA�
      (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
      Europe [�being quite close or identical�] (Richards et al. 1996).� The
      study further states �only a small proportion of lineages appear to
      originate in north Africa�� �It seems therefore that the genetic
      contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
      considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
      mtDNA gene pool� (of Iberia).

      On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
      presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
      present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
      populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
      indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
      and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
      present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
      evidence of agriculture as well as the �Linienbandkeramik� and Impressed
      Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
      respectively.

      Enough for now-
      Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
      Cheers,
      Frithunanths Ximenez.





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    • Bertil Haggman
      To Carlos Carvalho, Thank you for your detailed recounting of the late Visigothic royal families. It is interesting to learn about the later Visigothic nobles
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
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        To Carlos Carvalho,

        Thank you for your detailed recounting of the late Visigothic
        royal families. It is interesting to learn about the
        later Visigothic nobles in Portugal. Generally one is
        only reminded of the late relative of King Kindasvinth
        (641-652), the folk hero Pelayo/Pelagius, who hid in the mountains
        to later fight the Muslims from Asturia.

        Gothically

        Bertil


        Coimbra was previously Aeminium but as the neighbour and
        important roman village called Conimbriga was destroyed
        during the barbaric invasions it took the name through the
        bishopbry name.
        Regarding Witiza the genealogy is believed to follow this way*:
        ( I will use the portuguese forms, please ask me if any doubt arises)

        Vitiza (son of Egica and Cixilona) had issue:
        Oimundo, Romulo and Ardabasto (count of the christians in Cordoba)

        Vitiza had brothers: Opa (bishop of Seville)
        Sisebuto (count of the christians in Coimbra)

        Sisebuto had issue: Ataulfo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

        Ataulfo had issue: Atanarico (count of the christians in Coimbra)

        Atanarico had issue: Teudo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

        Teudo was documented in (770, 801/2, 805)
        Teudo had issue: Teodorico (805)// Ataulfo (805)(Bishop of Iria 843-
        851)// Nunilo x Bermudo, Prince of Asturias (812) having a large
        issue which spread in Portugal and Galicia// Mencia (?) x with Soeiro
        Belfaguer that appear in the Sousa family origin// Hermenegildo (805,
        841) captain of the royal guard.

        Hermenegildo had issue: Guterre, count (860,875)
        Guterre x Elvira and had issue: Alvito (915) x Argilo//
        N.(unknown Name) Guterres x Monio Nunes de Roa, count of Castille
        giving among others the "House of Guzman"// Osorio Guterres, count
        (916, 920)whose's generation mixes with the next// Hermenegildo
        Guterres (869) died 912, count of Coimbra (878), count of Portucale
        and Tuy, duke.

        Hermenegildo x Ermesinda Gatones daughter of Gaton, count of Bierzo
        and had issue: Arias Mendes (911, 924) count of Coimbra (895) x
        Enderia whose's generation mixed with his brother Guterre//Elvira
        Mendes, died 921, x ca. 895 Ordonho II king of Leon//
        Aldonça Mendes, with issue mixed with her sister Inderquina//
        Inderquina Mendes Pala*, died ca. 947 x Gosendo Eriz, count with
        issue, among others Ausenda Guterres x to Ramiro II** king of
        Portucale an King of Leon// Guterre Mendes, count in Galicia, died
        933

        Guterre Mendes married Ilduara Eriz (916, 958) and had issue:
        Monio Guterres, count (911, 959) x Elvira Arias with issue Gonçalo
        Moniz, count of Coimbra (928, 981) x Tutadona Forjaz (981)//
        Ermesinda Guterres (929, 934) x Paio Gonçalves, count // Saint
        Rosendo (born 907, died 977), bishop of Mondoñedo// Ausenda Guterres
        (934, 951) x Ximeno Dias (died 961)//Froila Guterres (933, 943) x
        Sarracina (936, 942) with issue//
        etc.

        *A Herança Genética de D. Afonso Henriques - Luiz de Mello
        Vaz de Sao Payo - Porto - 2002

        >What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
        >Islamic rule"?
        By issue I mean generation

        > In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship
        >to Witika?
        The oldest documents for this question are the donations to the
        Monastery of Lorvao, near Coimbra, in 770 from Teudo, count of
        Coimbra and great-great-grandson of Egica, publisd by Frei Bernardo
        de Brito. Other genealogists say Sisebuto was a son of Vitiza, but
        this is not well accepted nowadays. You must not then take much
        confidence from this as historians don't agree at all, even today.
        The "great picture" seems clear nevertheless.
      • faltin2001
        Hello all, the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an interesting issue. However, here are some thoughts that might be important to
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
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          Hello all,

          the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
          interesting issue. However, here are some thoughts that might be
          important to bear in mind:

          Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
          Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
          Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which has
          been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
          distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
          mainly as Spaniards.

          The chronicles of 754 also makes no mentioning of Visigoths for the
          whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a separate
          Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
          time of the Moslem conquest. However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
          from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. In
          these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
          irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
          important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
          legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
          association with the previous dynasty.

          I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
          identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, probably
          in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were seen as
          legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
          opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
          think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble families
          should mainly be seen in this context. They were more a reflection of
          Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality connected
          directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course not
          change the fact that some of the oldest noble families (especially in
          regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this was
          mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
          assumed importance in later centuries.

          cheers,

          Dirk

















          --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Ximenez:
          > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to
          some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
          > Ben
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
          > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
          Carvalho)
          > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
          Portuguese
          > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must
          have
          > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in
          711.
          > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
          > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
          > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
          ["mtDNA"
          > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
          > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 1996)."
          The
          > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages appear to
          > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
          > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
          been
          > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
          modern
          > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
          >
          > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
          right. The
          > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
          question in
          > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
          Eastern
          > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
          > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
          entered
          > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
          before
          > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
          > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
          Impressed
          > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
          > respectively.
          >
          > Enough for now-
          > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
          > Cheers,
          > Frithunanths Ximenez.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • F. E. Ximenez
          Dear Dirk, ... What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition? What exactly would it take to legitimize a Visigothic identity ? ... SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
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            Dear Dirk,

            faltin2001 wrote:

            > Hello all,
            >
            > the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
            > interesting issue. However,

            What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition?
            What exactly would it take to legitimize a "Visigothic identity"?

            > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
            > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
            > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which has
            > been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
            > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
            > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no mentioning of
            > Visigoths for the
            > whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a separate
            > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
            > time of the Moslem conquest.

            SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
            1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
            mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.
            2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis) mentions
            certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths. One
            such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells us: "They
            wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
            embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two white
            asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days went
            about”. With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 ) peculiar
            equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were identified
            as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over A as
            well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is that
            they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could not
            have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of leather
            straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
            Galdecano, P.M., “Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles” 1919: 42).
            The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still alive in
            710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
            3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many others
            that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
            history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
            province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME THE
            URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
            MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
            Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
            ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS ATTESTED
            IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822 CE.
            (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda reinstates
            the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
            "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF
            THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).

            > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
            > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. In
            > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
            > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
            > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
            > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
            > association with the previous dynasty.
            >
            > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
            > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, probably
            > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were seen as
            > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
            > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
            > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble families
            > should mainly be seen in this context.

            There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a great
            majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to have
            been aware of their ancestry and its implications.

            > They were more a reflection of
            > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality connected
            > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course not
            > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families (especially in
            > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this was

            > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
            > assumed importance in later centuries.

            The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose that any
            individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
            (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous populations
            of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
            fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the 40,000
            Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim to be
            of English descent, but is he really?.

            >
            >
            >
            > cheers,
            >
            > Dirk
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Ximenez:
            > > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to
            > some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
            > > Ben
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
            > > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
            > Carvalho)
            > > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
            > Portuguese
            > > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must
            > have
            > > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in
            > 711.
            > > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
            > > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
            > > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
            > ["mtDNA"
            > > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
            >
            > > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 1996)."
            > The
            > > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages appear to
            > > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
            > > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
            > been
            > > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
            > modern
            > > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
            > >
            > > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
            > right. The
            > > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
            > question in
            > > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
            > Eastern
            > > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
            > > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
            > entered
            > > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
            > before
            > > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
            > > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
            > Impressed
            > > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
            > > respectively.
            > >
            > > Enough for now-
            > > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
            > > Cheers,
            > > Frithunanths Ximenez.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
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            > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
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            > Service.
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          • F. E. Ximenez
            Greetings Pat, The Basque are one of my favorite ethnicities to study. I am sending you a citation for one work, however, it might be a bit tenuous to bring up
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 13, 2002
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              Greetings Pat,

              The Basque are one of my favorite ethnicities to study.

              I am sending you a citation for one work, however, it might be a bit tenuous to bring up the subject of "the Basques" in a
              Gothic list. Simply stated, the Basques are outlyers in all mtDNA comparisons. There has been gene flow to the immediate
              outlying areas "geographically" but only in the recent past.

              Try:
              "Human Mitochondrial DNA variation and the origin of the Basques" - 1994.
              also - Bertrandpetit & Cavalli-Sforza -1991 and Calafell & Bertrandpetit - 1994
              reconstructed the genetic population history (so to speak) of most of Europe taking special note of the Basques.

              Pat Christiansen wrote:

              > Hi Ximenez:
              > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
              > Ben
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
              > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
              > “may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
              > …” Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
              > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
              > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (“Genetic
              > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula” -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
              > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … “the majority of Iberian [“mtDNA”
              > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
              > Europe [“being quite close or identical”] (Richards et al. 1996).” The
              > study further states “only a small proportion of lineages appear to
              > originate in north Africa”… “It seems therefore that the genetic
              > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
              > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
              > mtDNA gene pool” (of Iberia).
              >
              > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
              > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
              > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
              > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
              > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
              > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
              > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
              > evidence of agriculture as well as the “Linienbandkeramik” and Impressed
              > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
              > respectively.
              >
              > Enough for now-
              > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
              > Cheers,
              > Frithunanths Ximenez.
              >
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            • Sahin Ahmet
              Dear Ximenez, I must say I am impressed with your findings, however which part of the iberian peninsula do you mean. I do not think iberian peninsula does
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 14, 2002
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                Dear Ximenez,
                I must say I am impressed with your findings, however which part of the iberian peninsula do you mean. I do not think iberian peninsula does have a very uniform DNA pattern. do you speak of andalucia? or catalania, extramadurra?
                To what extent DNA analysis is reliable? What do you mean by central or northern europe(slavic,germanic?).Did you have any information about DNA anlaysis in anatolia.
                As for the basque people, I believe they are a proto-indoeuropean people of the europe who managed to preserve their identity and language like albanians.
                "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                �may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                �� Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (�Genetic
                diversity in the Iberian Peninsula� -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that � �the majority of Iberian [�mtDNA�
                (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                Europe [�being quite close or identical�] (Richards et al. 1996).� The
                study further states �only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                originate in north Africa�� �It seems therefore that the genetic
                contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                mtDNA gene pool� (of Iberia).

                On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                evidence of agriculture as well as the �Linienbandkeramik� and Impressed
                Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                respectively.

                Enough for now-
                Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                Cheers,
                Frithunanths Ximenez.





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              • faltin2001
                ... Hi F.E. Ximenez, I meant this only in general terms. A Visigothic identity can be real or perceived. I think it is possible that it was revived in
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 15, 2002
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                  --- In gothic-l@y..., "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote:
                  > Dear Dirk,
                  >
                  > faltin2001 wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hello all,
                  > >
                  > > the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
                  > > interesting issue. However,
                  >
                  > What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition?
                  > What exactly would it take to legitimize a "Visigothic identity"?


                  Hi F.E. Ximenez,

                  I meant this only in general terms. A Visigothic identity can be real
                  or perceived. I think it is possible that it was revived in
                  retrospect during the medieval period, when it was usefull as a non-
                  Muslem identity and legitimacy.




                  >
                  > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                  > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                  > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which
                  has
                  > > been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                  > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                  > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                  mentioning of
                  > > Visigoths for the
                  > > whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a
                  separate
                  > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                  > > time of the Moslem conquest.
                  >
                  > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                  > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
                  > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.


                  Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                  Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus indicating
                  that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also only
                  natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                  elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                  term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                  most of them.





                  > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                  mentions
                  > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths.
                  One
                  > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                  us: "They
                  > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                  > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two
                  white
                  > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days
                  went
                  > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                  peculiar
                  > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                  identified
                  > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over
                  A as
                  > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is
                  that
                  > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could
                  not
                  > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                  leather
                  > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                  > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles" 1919:
                  42).
                  > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                  alive in
                  > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                  > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                  others
                  > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
                  > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
                  > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME
                  THE
                  > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
                  > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
                  > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
                  > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                  ATTESTED
                  > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822
                  CE.
                  > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                  reinstates
                  > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                  > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                  ORGANIZATION OF
                  > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                  >


                  I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment that
                  I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .





                  > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                  > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king.
                  In
                  > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                  > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                  > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                  > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                  > > association with the previous dynasty.
                  > >
                  > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                  > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                  probably
                  > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were
                  seen as
                  > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                  > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                  > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                  families
                  > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                  >
                  > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a
                  great
                  > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to
                  have
                  > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                  >


                  That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and Berber
                  elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage between
                  Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.




                  > > They were more a reflection of
                  > > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality
                  connected
                  > > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course
                  not
                  > > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families
                  (especially in
                  > > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this
                  was
                  >
                  > > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                  > > assumed importance in later centuries.
                  >
                  > The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose
                  that any
                  > individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
                  > (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous
                  populations
                  > of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
                  > fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the
                  40,000
                  > Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim
                  to be
                  > of English descent, but is he really?.
                  >


                  I don't think that the words 'partly' and 'decent' are very
                  problematic. These supposedly Visigothic nobles would almost
                  invariably have had also Roman and other local ancestors. So their
                  decent can only have been partly Visigothic at any rate. A. Schwarcz
                  has shown in an article on Visigothic elites in the 5th century, that
                  even Visigothic military leaders were sometimes actually Roman
                  aristocrats. What will have mainly mattered to them in the 7th/8th
                  centuries was the fact that they were Catholic Christians. This was
                  something that united them with all other Catholic Hispani in the
                  country and distinguished them from Moslems and Jews.

                  cheers,
                  Dirk




                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Ximenez:
                  > > > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me
                  to
                  > > some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                  > > > Ben
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                  > > > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
                  > > Carvalho)
                  > > > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
                  > > Portuguese
                  > > > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture,
                  must
                  > > have
                  > > > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom
                  in
                  > > 711.
                  > > > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
                  > > > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real;
                  Macaulay;
                  > > > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
                  > > ["mtDNA"
                  > > > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and
                  northern
                  > >
                  > > > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al.
                  1996)."
                  > > The
                  > > > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages
                  appear to
                  > > > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
                  > > > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
                  > > been
                  > > > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
                  > > modern
                  > > > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
                  > > >
                  > > > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
                  > > right. The
                  > > > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
                  > > question in
                  > > > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
                  > > Eastern
                  > > > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                  > > > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
                  > > entered
                  > > > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
                  > > before
                  > > > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                  > > > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
                  > > Impressed
                  > > > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                  > > > respectively.
                  > > >
                  > > > Enough for now-
                  > > > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                  > > > Cheers,
                  > > > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                  > > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Post your ad for free now! Yahoo! Canada Personals
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • F. E. Ximenez
                  ... What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the sundry citations Bertil
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Greetings again Dirk:


                    > > Hi F.E. Ximenez,
                    >
                    > > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                    > > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                    > > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which
                    > > > has been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                    > > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                    > > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                    > > > mentioning of Visigoths for the whole period from 711,
                    > > > which also underlines the fact that a separate
                    > > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                    >
                    > > > time of the Moslem conquest.

                    > > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:

                    > > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
                    > > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.

                    > Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                    > Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus indicating
                    > that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also only
                    > natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                    > elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                    > term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                    > most of them.

                    What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a
                    Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the
                    sundry citations Bertil has cited?

                    Perhaps you are looking at it as "a glass half empty", on the other
                    hand, perhaps I am looking at it as "a glass half full": Thus, in the
                    latter view, perhaps the "Spaniards" that you speak of (had been) or
                    (were in the process of) for lack of a better term, becoming
                    "Gothicized". An interesting question to ponder is [whose identity was
                    becoming amorphous, that of the Hispano Romans or that of the
                    Visigoths?]. I dare think that both were becoming amorphous, that is,
                    lacking the form each of those identities had early on in the Visigothic
                    period. Nothing is static after all; the culture of the Goths under
                    Ermanaric was no longer the same culture by the time Wallia was anointed
                    king - by that time - were they still Visigoths, or something else ?
                    (Surely, there is a point at which an identity becomes so amorphous that
                    it becomes forgotten or can no longer be discerned). There seems to be
                    good evidence that a strong Visigothic identity remained viable well
                    into the founding of the Castilian Kingdom. Even at present, many people
                    (especially north of Madrid) still identify with their Visigothic
                    heritage. It is strongest in Asturias where the bulk of Visigothic
                    palaces, churches and relics still exist and whose emblem is the cross
                    of Victory; the processional cross that Pelayo the Visigothic Noble is
                    mythically purported to have seen in a vision before he defeated the
                    Moors at Covadonga. As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders as
                    descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at Tenerife
                    (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                    sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to Spanish
                    mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                    wintertime. ----

                    Nonetheless, getting back to our discussion - Shortly after the time of
                    the Germanic invasions Europe can be seen as a crucible in which the
                    cultures of a rapidly declining Roman empire and the relatively newly
                    arrived cultures of Germanic peoples (which had ascended into power)
                    combined in ways that became the foundation for the Europe of today. Not
                    wholly Germanic and not wholly Roman in tradition (Certainly Catholic).
                    Undeniably however, is the fact that Europe is in great part (so to
                    speak) a "Germanic" interpretation of the Roman Empire (The Holy Roman
                    Empire) with its (Germanic) emperor.

                    > > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                    > mentions
                    > > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths.
                    > One
                    > > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                    > us: "They
                    > > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                    > > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two
                    > white
                    > > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days
                    > went
                    > > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                    > peculiar
                    > > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                    > identified
                    > > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over
                    > A as
                    > > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is
                    > that
                    > > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could
                    > not
                    > > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                    > leather
                    > > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                    > > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles" 1919:
                    > 42).
                    > > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                    > alive in
                    > > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                    > > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                    > others
                    > > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
                    > > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
                    >
                    > > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME
                    > THE
                    > > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
                    > > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
                    >
                    > > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
                    > > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                    > ATTESTED
                    > > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822
                    > CE.
                    > > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                    > reinstates
                    > > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                    > > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                    > ORGANIZATION OF
                    > > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment that
                    > I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .
                    >

                    Unfortunately, the latter is dismissed quite readily!

                    >
                    > > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                    > > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king.
                    > In
                    > > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                    > > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                    > > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                    > > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                    > > > association with the previous dynasty.
                    > > >
                    > > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                    > > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                    > probably
                    > > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista',

                    When do you think the Reconquista started?
                    It started in 722, eleven years after the defeat at Covadonga, under
                    Pelayo, a Visigothic noble. There was no need to resurrect an ethnic
                    identity since no ethnic identity had died.

                    > when the Visigoths were
                    > seen as
                    > > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                    > > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                    > > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                    > families
                    > > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                    > >
                    > > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a
                    > great
                    > > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to
                    > have
                    > > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and Berber
                    > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage between
                    > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.

                    Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the north,
                    where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                    (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim influence -
                    and another area to the south under Moorish domination where Moors,
                    using propaganda tried to legitimize their caliphate.
                    There were a few marriages in the occupied areas, NOT in Asturias. The
                    mtDNA paper I discussed earlier in another thread bears this out.

                    > > > They were more a reflection of
                    > > > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality
                    > connected
                    > > > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course
                    > not
                    > > > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families
                    > (especially in
                    > > > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this
                    > was
                    > >
                    > > > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                    > > > assumed importance in later centuries.
                    > >
                    > > The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose
                    > that any
                    > > individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
                    >
                    > > (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous
                    > populations
                    > > of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
                    >
                    > > fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the
                    > 40,000
                    > > Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim
                    > to be
                    > > of English descent, but is he really?.
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    > I don't think that the words 'partly' and 'decent' are very
                    > problematic. These supposedly Visigothic nobles would almost
                    > invariably have had also Roman and other local ancestors. So their
                    > decent can only have been partly Visigothic at any rate.

                    That IS precisely the point - that IS the reality - everyone is ALWAYS
                    only part (anything), especially in Europe - whether we call ourselves
                    Swedes or English, Dutch or French, we are only PARTLY Swedish or Dutch
                    or French because we are always related to some other ethnicity
                    somewhere along the line.

                    > A. Schwarcz
                    > has shown in an article on Visigothic elites in the 5th century, that
                    > even Visigothic military leaders were sometimes actually Roman
                    > aristocrats. What will have mainly mattered to them in the 7th/8th
                    > centuries was the fact that they were Catholic Christians. This was
                    > something that united them with all other Catholic Hispani in the
                    > country and distinguished them from Moslems and Jews.

                    Wholeheartedly agreed here!


                    I suppose that this topic brings to mind the question: What was it that
                    made a Goth a Goth or a Visigoth a Visigoth? His language, his customs,
                    allegiance to a leader, religious belief, (all - or some of these
                    things?). In kind of the same way, when do we stop calling him Goth or
                    Visigoth? This may be an interesting question for a future topic.
                    Regardless of the extant literature it may be interesting to revisit
                    this at some point.

                    Cheers,
                    F. Ximenez


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • faltin2001
                    ... Wambae ... and ... which ... themselves ... by the ... not ... indicating ... only ... Hi, I would have to believe you since you seem to know the sources
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In gothic-l@y..., "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote:
                      > Greetings again Dirk:
                      >
                      >
                      > > > Hi F.E. Ximenez,
                      > >
                      > > > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia
                      Wambae
                      > > > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani
                      and
                      > > > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain,
                      which
                      > > > > has been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                      > > > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered
                      themselves
                      > > > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                      > > > > mentioning of Visigoths for the whole period from 711,
                      > > > > which also underlines the fact that a separate
                      > > > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept
                      by the
                      > >
                      > > > > time of the Moslem conquest.
                      >
                      > > > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                      >
                      > > > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for
                      not
                      > > > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.
                      >
                      > > Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                      > > Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus
                      indicating
                      > > that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also
                      only
                      > > natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                      > > elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                      > > term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                      > > most of them.
                      >
                      > What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a
                      > Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the
                      > sundry citations Bertil has cited?




                      Hi,

                      I would have to believe you since you seem to know the sources better
                      than me. I cited only from recent academic literature on these
                      questions.






                      >
                      > Perhaps you are looking at it as "a glass half empty", on the other
                      > hand, perhaps I am looking at it as "a glass half full": Thus, in
                      the
                      > latter view, perhaps the "Spaniards" that you speak of (had been) or
                      > (were in the process of) for lack of a better term, becoming
                      > "Gothicized".



                      Certainly, cultural influences moved both ways. But the Visigoths
                      were only a tiny minority. The 'Tabulatura Gentes' of about 520AD
                      suggestest that the Visigothic language was already dying out at this
                      time, as it calls the Visigoths of Spain the 'Romanic speaking
                      Goths'. With the abandonment of Arianism in the late 6th century
                      there was really no barrier to complete absorbtion into an
                      overwhelming majority.





                      An interesting question to ponder is [whose identity was
                      > becoming amorphous, that of the Hispano Romans or that of the
                      > Visigoths?]. I dare think that both were becoming amorphous, that
                      is,
                      > lacking the form each of those identities had early on in the
                      Visigothic
                      > period.




                      I kind of agree. The Romano-Iberian identiy and the Visigothic
                      identity were merging into the Hispanic identity.





                      Nothing is static after all; the culture of the Goths under
                      > Ermanaric was no longer the same culture by the time Wallia was
                      anointed
                      > king - by that time - were they still Visigoths, or something else ?
                      > (Surely, there is a point at which an identity becomes so amorphous
                      that
                      > it becomes forgotten or can no longer be discerned).



                      One thing is certain though, Visigothic history ends in 711AD. Even
                      the polities that remained outside direct Arab rule did not call
                      themselves Visigothic.





                      There seems to be
                      > good evidence that a strong Visigothic identity remained viable well
                      > into the founding of the Castilian Kingdom. Even at present, many
                      people
                      > (especially north of Madrid) still identify with their Visigothic
                      > heritage.



                      In reality, however, those people will largely be of Celt-Iberian
                      origin.





                      It is strongest in Asturias where the bulk of Visigothic
                      > palaces, churches and relics still exist and whose emblem is the
                      cross
                      > of Victory; the processional cross that Pelayo the Visigothic Noble
                      is
                      > mythically purported to have seen in a vision before he defeated the
                      > Moors at Covadonga. As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders
                      as
                      > descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at
                      Tenerife
                      > (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                      > sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to
                      Spanish
                      > mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                      > wintertime. ----



                      Just to add another similar anecdote: When I was on Sicily in May, I
                      learned that we Germans are also still called 'Suevi' there.




                      >
                      > Nonetheless, getting back to our discussion - Shortly after the
                      time of
                      > the Germanic invasions Europe can be seen as a crucible in which the
                      > cultures of a rapidly declining Roman empire and the relatively
                      newly
                      > arrived cultures of Germanic peoples (which had ascended into power)
                      > combined in ways that became the foundation for the Europe of
                      today. Not
                      > wholly Germanic and not wholly Roman in tradition (Certainly
                      Catholic).
                      > Undeniably however, is the fact that Europe is in great part (so to
                      > speak) a "Germanic" interpretation of the Roman Empire (The Holy
                      Roman
                      > Empire) with its (Germanic) emperor.



                      I agree.





                      >
                      > > > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                      > > mentions
                      > > > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the
                      Visigoths.
                      > > One
                      > > > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                      > > us: "They
                      > > > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                      > > > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by
                      two
                      > > white
                      > > > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those
                      days
                      > > went
                      > > > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                      > > peculiar
                      > > > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                      > > identified
                      > > > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V
                      over
                      > > A as
                      > > > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits
                      is
                      > > that
                      > > > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider
                      could
                      > > not
                      > > > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                      > > leather
                      > > > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                      > > > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles"
                      1919:
                      > > 42).
                      > > > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                      > > alive in
                      > > > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                      > > > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                      > > others
                      > > > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods
                      in
                      > > > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is
                      now the
                      > >
                      > > > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS),
                      BECAME
                      > > THE
                      > > > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER
                      THE
                      > > > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground
                      of the
                      > >
                      > > > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct
                      Visigothic
                      > > > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                      > > ATTESTED
                      > > > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR
                      822
                      > > CE.
                      > > > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                      > > reinstates
                      > > > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                      > > > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                      > > ORGANIZATION OF
                      > > > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment
                      that
                      > > I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .
                      > >
                      >
                      > Unfortunately, the latter is dismissed quite readily!
                      >
                      > >
                      > > > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                      > > > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate
                      king.
                      > > In
                      > > > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                      > > > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                      > > > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their
                      own
                      > > > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                      > > > > association with the previous dynasty.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                      > > > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                      > > probably
                      > > > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista',
                      >
                      > When do you think the Reconquista started?
                      > It started in 722, eleven years after the defeat at Covadonga, under
                      > Pelayo, a Visigothic noble. There was no need to resurrect an ethnic
                      > identity since no ethnic identity had died.





                      I think the activities of Pelagius of Asturias are better seen as
                      local uprisings and revolts. In 722AD the Christians of Spain were
                      not really 'reconqering' Spain. In fact, the Moors continued to
                      expand there power and influence at that time even attacking the
                      Franks in 732AD. The 'Reconquista' gained real pace only at the end
                      of the 12th century under Alfons VIII. and Alfons X..








                      >
                      > > when the Visigoths were
                      > > seen as
                      > > > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of
                      Spain, as
                      > > > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate
                      usurpers. I
                      > > > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                      > > families
                      > > > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                      > > >
                      > > > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for
                      a
                      > > great
                      > > > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem
                      to
                      > > have
                      > > > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and
                      Berber
                      > > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage
                      between
                      > > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.
                      >
                      > Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the north,
                      > where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                      > (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim
                      influence -



                      Don't foreget, it was probably a part of the Visigothic nobles who
                      had invited the Moors to Spain in the first place. Apparently, it was
                      the heirs of Witiza's clan who sought Muslem support to regain the
                      throne. Thus, many Visigothic nobles will not have had any reason to
                      flee let alone starting a Reconquista.

                      The speed with which the Visigothic kingdom collapsed seems to
                      support the view that a good deal of the old elite co-operated and co-
                      habitated nicely with the Moors. Certainly, taxes were easier under
                      the Moors, percecutions of Jews stopped and the Moors were even quite
                      tolerant vis-a-vis the Catholics. The majority population and
                      apparently a good deal of the nobles were not really prepared to put
                      up a long fight against the Muslems when they first arrived.

                      cheers
                      Dirk
                    • Carlos Carvalho
                      Also in Latin America (Spanish speaking) Godos is mockery for Spaniard and has, a stronger connotation as it appeared during the Independence wars. Probably
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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                        Also in Latin America (Spanish speaking) Godos is mockery for Spaniard and
                        has, a stronger connotation as it appeared during the Independence wars.
                        Probably based on their genealogical assumptions.

                        Regards,

                        Carlos Carvalho
                        (Maia - Portugal)


                        As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders
                        as
                        > descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at
                        Tenerife
                        > (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                        > sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to
                        Spanish
                        > mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                        > wintertime. ----
                      • faltin2001
                        ... period. ... north, ... was ... to ... co- ... quite ... put ... Hi again, just to add to the above-said, I checked with J.M. Wallace-Hadrill s book The
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 21, 2002
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                          >
                          > > >
                          > > > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and
                          > Berber
                          > > > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage
                          > between
                          > > > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding
                          period.
                          > >
                          > > Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the
                          north,
                          > > where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                          > > (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim
                          > influence -
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Don't foreget, it was probably a part of the Visigothic nobles who
                          > had invited the Moors to Spain in the first place. Apparently, it
                          was
                          > the heirs of Witiza's clan who sought Muslem support to regain the
                          > throne. Thus, many Visigothic nobles will not have had any reason
                          to
                          > flee let alone starting a Reconquista.
                          >
                          > The speed with which the Visigothic kingdom collapsed seems to
                          > support the view that a good deal of the old elite co-operated and
                          co-
                          > habitated nicely with the Moors. Certainly, taxes were easier under
                          > the Moors, percecutions of Jews stopped and the Moors were even
                          quite
                          > tolerant vis-a-vis the Catholics. The majority population and
                          > apparently a good deal of the nobles were not really prepared to
                          put
                          > up a long fight against the Muslems when they first arrived.
                          >

                          Hi again,

                          just to add to the above-said, I checked with J.M. Wallace-Hadrill's
                          book 'The Barbarian West...". The author confirms that the leading
                          Arab elites married into the royal Visigothic house. The author also
                          provides texts of peace treaties between Visigothic nobles and Arabs,
                          which show that the Visigoths by and large had no reason to flee the
                          country. In fact, many seemed to have welcomed the rather leniend
                          rule of the Arabs. Remember, that Recceswinth had killed a large part
                          of the Visigothic nobility (perhaps even the majority) in the mid 7th
                          century. Thus, the remaining nobility was rather weary of a close-by
                          Visigothic king.

                          Also, Wallace-Hadrill expresses the opinion that the later Spanish
                          identity with the Visigoths is more a perceived identity that
                          was 'created' in opposition to the Moslem conquerers rather than a
                          real biological decendence and/or uninterrupted tradition.


                          cheers,

                          Dirk
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