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Re: [gothic-l] Star, Quarterfoil & Swan Iconography

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  • AElfric and Ursula
    Hails!
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 11, 2002
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      Hails!

      <<For what I know, correct me if I'm wrong, the crescent became
      associated with the Arab culture only by the XIVth century
      from bizantine influence. If that is true the traditional explanation
      would go wrong for this and a lot of other families.>>


      There is other evidence of a possible connection between the Goths and the crescent moon and star symbol:


      Wolfram states that the Amali shared the Sassinid royal insignia (which was a crescent moon enclosed in a circle). Ermanaric’s kingdom extended into Sarmatia, and it was perhaps him who first bore the Amali royal insignia which Jordanes mentions. In the Getica, the insignia of Ermanaric was passed down to Vinitharius of the Amali. The insignia is further passed on from Valamir to Thiudimir. Stanko Guldescu relates that the crescent moon and star symbol was common among the Ostrogoths, and was present on the shield of Theoderic the Great. In many ways, the Goths who pushed into Scythia were the heirs of the Sassinids. This may be further reflected in the similarities between some Gothic ornamental depictions, and the Faravahar.

      That symbols using crescent moons and stars survive in connection with the later Visigoths only reinforces the possibility of a connection between these symbols and the Goths.

      Could you give some references, books or web sites, where depictions can be found of these symbols on seals, tombs and in early heraldry?

      Albareiks



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bertil Haggman
      To Carlos Carvalho It is not certain if the was an Ostrogotic legal system. There is a document, Edictim Theodorici, which is a revised Roman law. It is not
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 12, 2002
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        To Carlos Carvalho

        It is not certain if the was an Ostrogotic legal system.
        There is a document, Edictim Theodorici, which is
        a revised Roman law. It is not product of high quality.
        It is even uncertain if it originated with Theoderic the Great,
        the Ostrogitc king or Theoderid or Theoderic II, both
        being Visigothic kings.

        If any Germanics in Italy influenced the law it was the Lombards
        who developed a highly sophisticated legal system.

        Gothically

        Bertil



        Has gothic law influenced italian law ?
      • tigerlipped
        Smith s Ordinary . an English compilation of medieaval armor bearings, lists 168 shields under Crescents.According to Peter Gwynn Jones (Lancaster Herald) the
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 12, 2002
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          "Smith's Ordinary". an English compilation of medieaval armor
          bearings, lists 168 shields under Crescents.According to Peter Gwynn
          Jones (Lancaster Herald) the crescent was too common in early
          heraldry to have anything but a utilitarian origin. Practicality in
          the 12th century, Jones alleges, was the all-guiding principle in the
          manufacture of arms, and it's likely that the crescent " was
          (originally) no more than a glancing device used to deflect a sword
          or an arrow at an oblique angle."

          Also, it's my understanding that the crescent was found inscribed
          into the catacombs of Rome. In any event, from about 1280 to to 1750,
          the crescent was used as a watermark by European paper manufacturers.
          This industry appears to have been introduced into France and Italy
          by the pre-reformation heresies, the Vaudois and the Albegeois, and
          the Cathari and the Patarini, respectively.Many of these crescents
          are surmounted by the seal of Solomon, or, as it is called today, the
          Star of David.

          The swan is a cognate device, and is alleged to have been inspired by
          an 11th century legend. The story goes that the Duchess of Boullion
          married a knight who had arrived at her castle in a boat drawn by a
          swan. Other versions of the legend has the knight marrying the
          Duchess of Brabant, from whom sprang the ducal line of Cleves, and,
          who, like the Count of Boulonge adopted the swan as their heraldic
          device. (Sir Anthony Wagner Clarenceux King of Arms)

          Ben
          --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
          > To Carlos Carvalho
          >
          > It is not certain if the was an Ostrogotic legal system.
          > There is a document, Edictim Theodorici, which is
          > a revised Roman law. It is not product of high quality.
          > It is even uncertain if it originated with Theoderic the Great,
          > the Ostrogitc king or Theoderid or Theoderic II, both
          > being Visigothic kings.
          >
          > If any Germanics in Italy influenced the law it was the Lombards
          > who developed a highly sophisticated legal system.
          >
          > Gothically
          >
          > Bertil
          >
          >
          >
          > Has gothic law influenced italian law ?
        • mazgallos
          Here are some sources, then: Seals: O Estudo da Sigilografia Medieval Portuguesa - Luiz Gonzaga de Lencastre e Tavora - Lisboa - 1983. This is the most
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 14, 2002
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            Here are some sources, then:

            Seals: "O Estudo da Sigilografia Medieval Portuguesa" - Luiz Gonzaga
            de Lencastre e Tavora - Lisboa - 1983. This is the most complete
            study on Portuguese medieval seals.
            On crescents and moons see for example:

            Picture IX - Seal of "Alfonso el Sabio" with a lunel or quarterfoil
            on a building (it looks more like a palace than a church as no cross
            appears)

            Seal nº 118 - Seal of the county of Parada (probably now Parada de
            Gonta), near Viseu,
            document of 1226, donation of Mendo Sanches de Oliveira to the
            cathedral of Viseu,
            three towers the central one with a 6-ray star on top. The same seal
            appears in the blason of Seia, a village by Serra da Estrela (Star
            Mountain), where Paio Carvalho and
            Tructesindo Vermuiz lived and confirmed its Foral issued by king
            Afonso Henriques in 1136.

            Seal nº 131 - Seal of the apostolic judge from Celas monastery (in
            Coimbra), document of 1231, a six-ray star. Each ray is like a linear
            leave, something similar, but with 8 rays as in Carvalho's blason,
            can be seen in Azores, S. Miguel island, Ribeira Grande village,
            church of N. S. da Estrela ( Our Lady of the Star), cult linked to
            the family and region where they lived, as I intend to explain later
            if allowed)

            Seal nº 140 - Seal of lineage type, difficult to read, apparently
            Menendo or Menendi (a name / patronymic) , preceded by S. Domini ?
            (Sigilus Domini Menendo ?).
            A lunel or quarterfoil enclosing a 8 ray star.
            The seal was loose in a document box of the Cathedral of Coimbra from
            the XIII-XVth centruries. The style shows it should be from end of
            XIII th century. Some of the documents of this archive are from the
            village of Carvalho (comment of the author).

            Seal nº 142 - Seal of lineage type, no legend seen. Was found loose
            in Alcobaça Monastery (place where first lunels appear clearly as
            personnal heraldry in a Sousas family tomb). A lunel or quarterfoil
            charged in the center with a piece (star? eagle? fleur-de-lys?).

            Seal nº 165 - Seal of ecclesiatic type, probably from D. Egas Fafes,
            bishop of Coimbra (1246-1267). A mitred prelate, to the right a
            crescent and a star with 5 rays.These symbols have for long been
            associated with cult of Virgin Mary. See for example the iconography
            of N. S. da Conceicao (patroness of Portugal, patroness of Spain)
            represented on top of a crescent and stars on the mantle or pedestal.

            Seal nº 197 - Seal of ecclesiastic type, probably from S. Vicente
            Monastery (due to the crows). A quarterfoil charged in its center
            with a ship on waves, a layed body on it with 2 crows at rear and
            front, 8 stars with 8 rays. Probably from the end of XIII th century.

            Seal nº 283 - Seal of ecclesiastic type, from canon Joao Martins of
            Coimbra's Cathedral.
            Depicts Our Lady on a chair with Child Jesus on her lap, aside a 8-
            ray star and a crescent.

            Seal nº 337 - Seal of heraldic type, from Fernao Gomes de Carvalho,
            lord of Carvalho.
            A lunel or quarterfoil. Document of 1313. The most ancient known
            representation of Carvalho's heraldry, but without the star, thought
            to be derived from Sousa's.

            Seal nº 375 - Seal of ecclesiastic type, from Alcobaça Monastery.
            Document dated 1338. Cross of Christ at each corner a crescent turned
            to the center with a 8-ray star by each crescent.

            I ignored later seals.

            Tombs: "Epigrafia Medieval Portuguesa" - Mario Jorge Barroca -
            Lisboa -2000
            Picture CXXI nº 2 - we see on lid the following: a lunel, a 6-ray
            star (linear leave type) grouped by 2 rays, a 5-ray polygonal star
            (pentalfa), a 6-bifid rays star, a 6-ray star (linear leave type), a
            5-ray polygonal star (pentalfa).
            On the visible side several ornaments as 6-ray stars, concentric
            circles, trifoils, etc.
            Tomb of Domingos Peres Sequeira, from Barcelos (near Braga), dated
            1284, was in the churchyard of S. Eugenia de Rio Covo, now in Museu
            Arqueologico de Barcelos.

            Heraldry:
            "Apontamentos de Armaria Medieval Portuguesa" - Luis. G. L e Tavora -
            in "Armas e Trofeus" - 1981- Lisboa -
            III - A Heraldica dos Sousoes no Claustro do Silencio, de Alcobaça,
            pg. 54-72
            Shows "Pedra do Cavaleiro" (Knight's Stone): a knight on his horse
            and a shield bordered twice, with a lunel (4 crescents turned into
            each other) on the croup. They are surrounded by three large
            crescents (probably a 4th one is on bottom but it is hidden by the
            representation).
            At each corner of the stone a circle with a figure (clockwise) top
            left: a crescent turned down to a 9-ray perforated star (or spur ?);
            other corners: a lunel.
            Shows tombstone of Goncalo Mendes de Sousa (thought to have died by
            1243)
            to the left of the inscription a lunel around a shield bordered
            twice, inside the border another lunel.
            Other tomstones show 3 crescents turned down, side by side, 5 lunels
            in saltire in a shield (appears twice).

            You can see Carvalhos blason at:
            www.terravista.pt/FerNoronha/ 1829/Carvalho.gif

            Hope this helps,

            Carlos Carvalho
          • Ingemar Nordgren
            Dear mazgallos! Thank you for your very thorough and valuable information about seals, tombs and other heraldry. Best Ingemar
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 14, 2002
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              Dear mazgallos!

              Thank you for your very thorough and valuable information about seals,
              tombs and other heraldry.

              Best
              Ingemar


              > From: "mazgallos" <cdecarvalho@...>
              > Subject: Star, Quarterfoil & Swan Iconography
              >
            • Carlos Carvalho
              Well I personally think that the crescent could either have a religious or laymen signification, necessarily different. Didn t know the english explanation,
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 17, 2002
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                Well I personally think that the crescent could either have a religious
                or laymen signification, necessarily different.
                Didn't know the english explanation, seems interesting. Has anyone
                found a piece of this glancing device ?
                The story of the Bouillon familly is well known here as one portuguese
                Bulhoes family (one of the earlier Bulhoes was St. Anthony) claims
                to descend from these.
                As a piece it indicates treason (they say because of its dark meat as
                a contrast to the white feathers). It is then for a strong reason that a
                family would allow to put it in their heraldry. I suspect this has something
                to do with the fight Roderico / Witiza question. My future messages will
                try to enlighten more this.

                Regards,

                Carlos Carvalho
                (Maia - Portugal)


                >
                > "Smith's Ordinary". an English compilation of medieaval armor
                > bearings, lists 168 shields under Crescents.According to Peter Gwynn
                > Jones (Lancaster Herald) the crescent was too common in early
                > heraldry to have anything but a utilitarian origin. Practicality in
                > the 12th century, Jones alleges, was the all-guiding principle in the
                > manufacture of arms, and it's likely that the crescent " was
                > (originally) no more than a glancing device used to deflect a sword
                > or an arrow at an oblique angle."
                >
                > Also, it's my understanding that the crescent was found inscribed
                > into the catacombs of Rome. In any event, from about 1280 to to 1750,
                > the crescent was used as a watermark by European paper manufacturers.
                > This industry appears to have been introduced into France and Italy
                > by the pre-reformation heresies, the Vaudois and the Albegeois, and
                > the Cathari and the Patarini, respectively.Many of these crescents
                > are surmounted by the seal of Solomon, or, as it is called today, the
                > Star of David.
                >
                > The swan is a cognate device, and is alleged to have been inspired by
                > an 11th century legend. The story goes that the Duchess of Boullion
                > married a knight who had arrived at her castle in a boat drawn by a
                > swan. Other versions of the legend has the knight marrying the
                > Duchess of Brabant, from whom sprang the ducal line of Cleves, and,
                > who, like the Count of Boulonge adopted the swan as their heraldic
                > device. (Sir Anthony Wagner Clarenceux King of Arms)
                >
                > Ben
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