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Re: [gothic-l] Counts of Coimbra ?

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  • Sahin Ahmet
    since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all people in europe has some connection to other people may it be goths.lets say, hunnic people
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 7, 2002
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      since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all people in europe has some connection to other people may it be goths.lets say, hunnic people who originated in altai mountains(turkic) had eventually settled in europe. where are they now? possibly every european has also a turkic&mongolian connection. if we think in this respect, you may also have cosiderable connection to the arabic people as a portuguese.so speaking of ancestors is a little bit a vague in my opinion.
      mazgallos <cdecarvalho@...> wrote: Good Evening,

      This is my introducing message.
      I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
      inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of years
      as
      farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
      area, 100
      km from Porto.
      The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a church
      patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
      occupation). The
      origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio Carvalho
      (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
      of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen documents
      by the
      second quarter of the 12th century.

      Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
      genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
      Coimbra (or
      more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
      Hermenegildo
      Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
      Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
      kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.

      Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
      delirious
      genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have evidence
      of
      some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
      region
      itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or even
      a
      professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for ignorance.

      If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
      let me
      know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
      and (a
      few) certitudes.

      Thanks a lot,

      Carlos Carvalho

      Sorry but all sources are in portuguese
      # denotes inedit conclusions
      * Manuscrito da Casa de Telho, described in Felgeria Rubeas - Eduardo
      de
      Freitas - Felgueiras 1985
      ** Works of Jose Anes Arnado
      ** Nobiliario de Familias de Portugal - Felgueiras Gayo - Braga 1992
      (3rd
      volume title Carvalhos)





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    • Bertil Haggman
      To Carlos Carvalho, Finding your contribution on July 7 of great interest. The center of the Visigothic kingdom was Toledo in Spain. The rule included much of
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 9, 2002
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        To Carlos Carvalho,

        Finding your contribution on July 7 of great interest. The
        center of the Visigothic kingdom was Toledo in Spain.
        The rule included much of present day Portugal (Coimbra=
        Conimbrica?). Witika ruled 697-710 (he died in February
        710, presumably after being blinded by Roderich, the
        last Visigothic king) and he was the son of Egika,
        who died in 701 in Toledo. Did Witika have a brother?
        Have not been able to find out but maybe somebody on the
        list can provide the answer.

        What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
        Islamic rule"?

        Very little is known about Witika. Most information is related
        to about 100 years after his death (Chronicle of Mossaic (around
        818).

        In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship to Witika?

        Gothically

        Bertil


        > This is my introducing message.
        > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
        > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of years
        > as
        > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
        > area, 100
        > km from Porto.
        > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a church
        > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
        > occupation). The
        > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio Carvalho
        > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
        > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen documents
        > by the
        > second quarter of the 12th century.
        >
        > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
        > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
        > Coimbra (or
        > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
        > Hermenegildo
        > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
        > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
        > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
        >
        > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
        > delirious
        > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have evidence
        > of
        > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
        > region
        > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or even
        > a
        > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for ignorance.
        >
        > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
        > let me
        > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
        > and (a
        > few) certitudes.
        >
      • F. E. Jimenez
        Carlos, Welcome! Fear not, though your query about genealogy may not be poignant to the usual interests and subjects discussed on this list, I believe you
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 9, 2002
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          Carlos,
          Welcome!
          Fear not, though your query about genealogy may not be poignant to the
          "usual" interests and subjects discussed on this list, I believe you
          will find some subscribers (here) to be very helpful and curious
          concerning all aspects of Gothic culture and its ensuing heritage. I for
          one find your topic a refreshing change from the "usual" diversion and
          obviously quite relevant to things Gothic (Visigothic).

          First off- you should not find it odd that you ‘may’ have discovered
          connections to Gothic ancestors since such connections are quite common
          and often "documented" as far back as the “Urbs Regia” of Oviedo and
          even the Visigothic reign of Toledo. People in the Iberian Peninsula
          have long had a Penchant for systematic, thorough record keeping both in
          its ecclesiastical and lay institutions; a practice that first begun
          when Iberia became the Roman province of "Hispania".

          For several reasons (which would be too lengthy to cover here), record
          keeping was also "de rigueur" during the Visigothic kingdom at Toledo
          and after 711 when Oviedo (in Asturias) became the “Urbs Regia”.
          Nonetheless, early on, during the Reconquest it became practical and
          important to substantiate one’s Visigothic parentage for several
          reasons, e.g. to ensure one’s noble title and/or the possible return of
          a family's land holdings and political office enjoyed prior to the
          invasion of 711 (should the latter lands be wrested from the occupiers
          by the Reconquest).

          Individuals that could prove Visigothic parentage were called “Hidalgos”
          [a contraction of Hijo-d’al-godos] meaning (son of the Goths) in the
          formative Castilian language. The latter term is still very much in use
          and is used to refer to an individual that though lacking noble title
          can prove ancestry to a Visigothic lineage. --- The latter however, has
          a dark side. Certification of Visigothic ancestry was highly sought
          after during the “limpieza de sangre” when the notorious (laws) of
          “purity of blood” were passed. They in essence relegated anything other
          than European-Hispano/Visigothic descent as un-Spanish and un-Christian.
          Purity of blood was eventually used as an argument for the expulsion
          from Spain of what were deemed “undesirable ethnic elements”.

          A bit of practical advice and a caveat as regards your genealogical
          research:
          First – Hiring a reputable, professional genealogist (even on a part
          time basis) is worth the money. They will find things faster and in
          places that you would never have thought to look (private family
          libraries et al.. Once proof of lineage is found you might want to make
          application for a certificate to the "Conselho de Nobreza" (Council of
          the Nobility), which was formed under the authority of the Duke of
          Braganca, head of the Royal house of Portugal, though it is my belief
          that Spain will also accept and process such claims. (The Duke of
          Braganca would be the present King of Portugal, if Portugal had remained
          a monarchy instead of a republic).

          Secondly – When we “do” find such ancestral lineages it is only truly
          meaningful as a matter of romantic curiosity. The most compelling
          genetic evidence to date indicates that all humans are part of the same
          family; we are all related back to a common ancestor and are a product
          of the myriad people that comprise our particular lineage. The terms
          applied to groups such as “Goths”, “Angles”, “Saxons”, “(H)eruls”,
          “Germans” “Turks” etc are either linguistic or cultural designations
          that allow us the expediency of categorization. Language, culture and
          experiences are not hereditary. Furthermore, no group is imbued with
          ‘intrinsic’ importance, prestige etc. Speaking as a molecular
          anthropologist, there are no discrete genetic signatures for Celts or
          Angles, Saxons or Goths.

          Lastly - Though personal genealogy is a subject that has to my knowledge
          never been discussed on this list. There have been sundry contributions
          that make mention of the heritage left to the present as a result of the
          Spanish (Iberian) Gothia. I recommend that you search the archives and
          more specifically, that you look for this list’s discussion (some two
          years ago) concerning the origin of the suffixes of Spanish (or
          Portuguese) surnames Ximen[ez], Rodrigu[ez]; ( iz, az, es as, etc)… I
          found ‘that’ thread particularly interesting.

          Again welcome, and I hope you find this list beneficial.

          Frithunanths Elatheus Ximenez.
        • mazgallos
          First of all let me make clear that genealogy is not the main point I intended to raise in this list, it was only the basic reason behind my doubts. In this
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 10, 2002
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            First of all let me make clear that genealogy is
            not the main point I intended to raise in this list,
            it was only the basic reason behind my doubts.
            In this case it could only be important if an uninterrupted male line
            could be established (and preferably more than one).
            Then a DNA test would be used as a way to investigate
            the coherence of the lines and of any other genetic material of the
            goth people.

            I don't have yet a proof of a specific male Goth ascent,
            although some "nobiliarios" say so, but this is far from enough.
            To be frank (oops !) I admit that we never would be able to get there,
            but maybe we learn something important on the way.
            Why not give it a try ?

            I do agree with you in the general idea:
            after some time everybody is anyone's cousin,
            Arabic people for example was not a basic component
            in Hispanic population because they appeared mainly in higher
            ranks which, by the way, made matters worse for unequal marriages,
            discounting any spurious children. It is obvious however that some
            kind of physical relationship exists between the populations at both
            sides of the Mediterranean: Moors they were, berberic stock. But
            previous massive migrations occurred before, in pre-historical times.

            Nevertheless most of the Portuguese population
            (and probably the Spaniards as well) have a line that leads to
            the Arabs and the Prophet himself (as Queen Elizabeth II)
            via several royal descendents that mixed and disappeared within the
            common people. So an "unimportant" 1/10000...0000 of ascent becomes
            important due to social rank.

            A Portuguese sailor arrives in Japan in the XVI century and has a
            child there. Is it important for the Japanese ? Yes ! This was the
            man who passed away the genes of "paramioldosis" a hereditary disease
            that occurs almost only in Portugal and Japan.

            So to understand ourselves nowadays I believe we must understand how
            and who our ancestors were ... and a butterfly in Peking ...

            Kind Regards,

            Carlos Carvalho


            --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
            >
            > since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all
            people in europe has some connection to other people may it be
            goths.lets say, hunnic people who originated in altai mountains
            (turkic) had eventually settled in europe. where are they now?
            possibly every european has also a turkic&mongolian connection. if
            we think in this respect, you may also have cosiderable connection to
            the arabic people as a portuguese.so speaking of ancestors is a
            little bit a vague in my opinion.
            > mazgallos <cdecarvalho@c...> wrote: Good Evening,
            >
            > This is my introducing message.
            > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
            > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of
            years
            > as
            > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
            > area, 100
            > km from Porto.
            > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a
            church
            > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
            > occupation). The
            > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio
            Carvalho
            > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
            > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen
            documents
            > by the
            > second quarter of the 12th century.
            >
            > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
            > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
            > Coimbra (or
            > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
            > Hermenegildo
            > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
            > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
            > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
            >
            > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
            > delirious
            > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have
            evidence
            > of
            > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
            > region
            > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or
            even
            > a
            > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for
            ignorance.
            >
            > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
            > let me
            > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
            > and (a
            > few) certitudes.
            >
            > Thanks a lot,
            >
            > Carlos Carvalho
            >
            > Sorry but all sources are in portuguese
            > # denotes inedit conclusions
            > * Manuscrito da Casa de Telho, described in Felgeria Rubeas -
            Eduardo
            > de
            > Freitas - Felgueiras 1985
            > ** Works of Jose Anes Arnado
            > ** Nobiliario de Familias de Portugal - Felgueiras Gayo - Braga
            1992
            > (3rd
            > volume title Carvalhos)
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
            blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Sahin Ahmet
            mazgallos wrote: First of all let me make clear that genealogy is not the main point I intended to raise in this list, it was only the
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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              mazgallos <cdecarvalho@...> wrote: First of all let me make clear that genealogy is
              not the main point I intended to raise in this list,
              it was only the basic reason behind my doubts.
              In this case it could only be important if an uninterrupted male line
              could be established (and preferably more than one).
              Then a DNA test would be used as a way to investigate
              the coherence of the lines and of any other genetic material of the
              goth people.

              I don't have yet a proof of a specific male Goth ascent,
              although some "nobiliarios" say so, but this is far from enough.
              To be frank (oops !) I admit that we never would be able to get there,
              but maybe we learn something important on the way.
              Why not give it a try ?

              I do agree with you in the general idea:
              after some time everybody is anyone's cousin,
              Arabic people for example was not a basic component
              in Hispanic population because they appeared mainly in higher
              ranks which, by the way, made matters worse for unequal marriages,
              discounting any spurious children. It is obvious however that some
              kind of physical relationship exists between the populations at both
              sides of the Mediterranean: Moors they were, berberic stock. But
              previous massive migrations occurred before, in pre-historical times.

              Nevertheless most of the Portuguese population
              (and probably the Spaniards as well) have a line that leads to
              the Arabs and the Prophet himself (as Queen Elizabeth II)
              via several royal descendents that mixed and disappeared within the
              common people. So an "unimportant" 1/10000...0000 of ascent becomes
              important due to social rank.

              A Portuguese sailor arrives in Japan in the XVI century and has a
              child there. Is it important for the Japanese ? Yes ! This was the
              man who passed away the genes of "paramioldosis" a hereditary disease
              that occurs almost only in Portugal and Japan.

              So to understand ourselves nowadays I believe we must understand how
              and who our ancestors were ... and a butterfly in Peking ...

              Kind Regards,

              Carlos Carvalho


              --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
              >
              > since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all
              people in europe has some connection to other people may it be
              goths.lets say, hunnic people who originated in altai mountains
              (turkic) had eventually settled in europe. where are they now?
              possibly every european has also a turkic&mongolian connection. if
              we think in this respect, you may also have cosiderable connection to
              the arabic people as a portuguese.so speaking of ancestors is a
              little bit a vague in my opinion.
              > mazgallos <cdecarvalho@c...> wrote: Good Evening,
              >
              > This is my introducing message.
              > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
              > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of
              years
              > as
              > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
              > area, 100
              > km from Porto.
              > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a
              church
              > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
              > occupation). The
              > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio
              Carvalho
              > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
              > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen
              documents
              > by the
              > second quarter of the 12th century.
              >
              > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
              > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
              > Coimbra (or
              > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
              > Hermenegildo
              > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
              > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
              > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
              >
              > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
              > delirious
              > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have
              evidence
              > of
              > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
              > region
              > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or
              even
              > a
              > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for
              ignorance.
              >
              > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
              > let me
              > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
              > and (a
              > few) certitudes.
              >
              > Thanks a lot,
              >
              > Carlos Carvalho
              >
              > Sorry but all sources are in portuguese
              > # denotes inedit conclusions
              > * Manuscrito da Casa de Telho, described in Felgeria Rubeas -
              Eduardo
              > de
              > Freitas - Felgueiras 1985
              > ** Works of Jose Anes Arnado
              > ** Nobiliario de Familias de Portugal - Felgueiras Gayo - Braga
              1992
              > (3rd
              > volume title Carvalhos)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
              blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


              You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.

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            • Sahin Ahmet
              sorry for the previous accidental empty message. ... Do You Yahoo!? New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access [Non-text portions of this message
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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                sorry for the previous accidental empty message.



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              • F. E. Ximenez
                Greetings Sahin, I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho) “may have considerable connection to the Arabic people as a
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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                  Greetings Sahin,
                  I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                  “may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                  …” Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                  occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                  However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (“Genetic
                  diversity in the Iberian Peninsula” -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                  Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … “the majority of Iberian [“mtDNA”
                  (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                  Europe [“being quite close or identical”] (Richards et al. 1996).” The
                  study further states “only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                  originate in north Africa”… “It seems therefore that the genetic
                  contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                  considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                  mtDNA gene pool” (of Iberia).

                  On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                  presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                  present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                  populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                  indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                  and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                  present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                  evidence of agriculture as well as the “Linienbandkeramik” and Impressed
                  Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                  respectively.

                  Enough for now-
                  Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                  Cheers,
                  Frithunanths Ximenez.
                • mazgallos
                  Coimbra was previously Aeminium but as the neighbour and important roman village called Conimbriga was destroyed during the barbaric invasions it took the name
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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                    Coimbra was previously Aeminium but as the neighbour and
                    important roman village called Conimbriga was destroyed
                    during the barbaric invasions it took the name through the
                    bishopbry name.
                    Regarding Witiza the genealogy is believed to follow this way*:
                    ( I will use the portuguese forms, please ask me if any doubt arises)

                    Vitiza (son of Egica and Cixilona) had issue:
                    Oimundo, Romulo and Ardabasto (count of the christians in Cordoba)

                    Vitiza had brothers: Opa (bishop of Seville)
                    Sisebuto (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                    Sisebuto had issue: Ataulfo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                    Ataulfo had issue: Atanarico (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                    Atanarico had issue: Teudo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                    Teudo was documented in (770, 801/2, 805)
                    Teudo had issue: Teodorico (805)// Ataulfo (805)(Bishop of Iria 843-
                    851)// Nunilo x Bermudo, Prince of Asturias (812) having a large
                    issue which spread in Portugal and Galicia// Mencia (?) x with Soeiro
                    Belfaguer that appear in the Sousa family origin// Hermenegildo (805,
                    841) captain of the royal guard.

                    Hermenegildo had issue: Guterre, count (860,875)
                    Guterre x Elvira and had issue: Alvito (915) x Argilo//
                    N.(unknown Name) Guterres x Monio Nunes de Roa, count of Castille
                    giving among others the "House of Guzman"// Osorio Guterres, count
                    (916, 920)whose's generation mixes with the next// Hermenegildo
                    Guterres (869) died 912, count of Coimbra (878), count of Portucale
                    and Tuy, duke.

                    Hermenegildo x Ermesinda Gatones daughter of Gaton, count of Bierzo
                    and had issue: Arias Mendes (911, 924) count of Coimbra (895) x
                    Enderia whose's generation mixed with his brother Guterre//Elvira
                    Mendes, died 921, x ca. 895 Ordonho II king of Leon//
                    Aldonça Mendes, with issue mixed with her sister Inderquina//
                    Inderquina Mendes Pala*, died ca. 947 x Gosendo Eriz, count with
                    issue, among others Ausenda Guterres x to Ramiro II** king of
                    Portucale an King of Leon// Guterre Mendes, count in Galicia, died
                    933

                    Guterre Mendes married Ilduara Eriz (916, 958) and had issue:
                    Monio Guterres, count (911, 959) x Elvira Arias with issue Gonçalo
                    Moniz, count of Coimbra (928, 981) x Tutadona Forjaz (981)//
                    Ermesinda Guterres (929, 934) x Paio Gonçalves, count // Saint
                    Rosendo (born 907, died 977), bishop of Mondoñedo// Ausenda Guterres
                    (934, 951) x Ximeno Dias (died 961)//Froila Guterres (933, 943) x
                    Sarracina (936, 942) with issue//
                    etc.

                    *A Herança Genética de D. Afonso Henriques - Luiz de Mello
                    Vaz de Sao Payo - Porto - 2002

                    >What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
                    >Islamic rule"?
                    By issue I mean generation

                    > In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship
                    >to Witika?
                    The oldest documents for this question are the donations to the
                    Monastery of Lorvao, near Coimbra, in 770 from Teudo, count of
                    Coimbra and great-great-grandson of Egica, publisd by Frei Bernardo
                    de Brito. Other genealogists say Sisebuto was a son of Vitiza, but
                    this is not well accepted nowadays. You must not then take much
                    confidence from this as historians don't agree at all, even today.
                    The "great picture" seems clear nevertheless.

                    Best Regards,

                    Carlos Carvalho

                    --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                    > To Carlos Carvalho,
                    >
                    > Finding your contribution on July 7 of great interest. The
                    > center of the Visigothic kingdom was Toledo in Spain.
                    > The rule included much of present day Portugal (Coimbra=
                    > Conimbrica?). Witika ruled 697-710 (he died in February
                    > 710, presumably after being blinded by Roderich, the
                    > last Visigothic king) and he was the son of Egika,
                    > who died in 701 in Toledo. Did Witika have a brother?
                    > Have not been able to find out but maybe somebody on the
                    > list can provide the answer.
                    >
                    > What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
                    > Islamic rule"?
                    >
                    > Very little is known about Witika. Most information is related
                    > to about 100 years after his death (Chronicle of Mossaic (around
                    > 818).
                    >
                    > In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship
                    to Witika?
                    >
                    > Gothically
                    >
                    > Bertil
                    >
                    >
                    > > This is my introducing message.
                    > > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years,
                    deriving
                    > > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of
                    years
                    > > as
                    > > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around
                    Viseu
                    > > area, 100
                    > > km from Porto.
                    > > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a
                    church
                    > > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
                    > > occupation). The
                    > > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio
                    Carvalho
                    > > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
                    > > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen
                    documents
                    > > by the
                    > > second quarter of the 12th century.
                    > >
                    > > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
                    > > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
                    > > Coimbra (or
                    > > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
                    > > Hermenegildo
                    > > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
                    > > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
                    > > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
                    > >
                    > > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
                    > > delirious
                    > > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have
                    evidence
                    > > of
                    > > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to
                    the
                    > > region
                    > > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or
                    even
                    > > a
                    > > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for
                    ignorance.
                    > >
                    > > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group
                    please
                    > > let me
                    > > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts,
                    questions
                    > > and (a
                    > > few) certitudes.
                    > >
                  • Pat Christiansen
                    Hi Ximenez: Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance. Ben F. E. Ximenez
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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                      Hi Ximenez:
                      Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                      Ben





                      "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                      I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                      �may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                      �� Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                      occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                      However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (�Genetic
                      diversity in the Iberian Peninsula� -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                      Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that � �the majority of Iberian [�mtDNA�
                      (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                      Europe [�being quite close or identical�] (Richards et al. 1996).� The
                      study further states �only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                      originate in north Africa�� �It seems therefore that the genetic
                      contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                      considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                      mtDNA gene pool� (of Iberia).

                      On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                      presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                      present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                      populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                      indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                      and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                      present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                      evidence of agriculture as well as the �Linienbandkeramik� and Impressed
                      Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                      respectively.

                      Enough for now-
                      Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                      Cheers,
                      Frithunanths Ximenez.





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                    • Bertil Haggman
                      To Carlos Carvalho, Thank you for your detailed recounting of the late Visigothic royal families. It is interesting to learn about the later Visigothic nobles
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
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                        To Carlos Carvalho,

                        Thank you for your detailed recounting of the late Visigothic
                        royal families. It is interesting to learn about the
                        later Visigothic nobles in Portugal. Generally one is
                        only reminded of the late relative of King Kindasvinth
                        (641-652), the folk hero Pelayo/Pelagius, who hid in the mountains
                        to later fight the Muslims from Asturia.

                        Gothically

                        Bertil


                        Coimbra was previously Aeminium but as the neighbour and
                        important roman village called Conimbriga was destroyed
                        during the barbaric invasions it took the name through the
                        bishopbry name.
                        Regarding Witiza the genealogy is believed to follow this way*:
                        ( I will use the portuguese forms, please ask me if any doubt arises)

                        Vitiza (son of Egica and Cixilona) had issue:
                        Oimundo, Romulo and Ardabasto (count of the christians in Cordoba)

                        Vitiza had brothers: Opa (bishop of Seville)
                        Sisebuto (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                        Sisebuto had issue: Ataulfo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                        Ataulfo had issue: Atanarico (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                        Atanarico had issue: Teudo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                        Teudo was documented in (770, 801/2, 805)
                        Teudo had issue: Teodorico (805)// Ataulfo (805)(Bishop of Iria 843-
                        851)// Nunilo x Bermudo, Prince of Asturias (812) having a large
                        issue which spread in Portugal and Galicia// Mencia (?) x with Soeiro
                        Belfaguer that appear in the Sousa family origin// Hermenegildo (805,
                        841) captain of the royal guard.

                        Hermenegildo had issue: Guterre, count (860,875)
                        Guterre x Elvira and had issue: Alvito (915) x Argilo//
                        N.(unknown Name) Guterres x Monio Nunes de Roa, count of Castille
                        giving among others the "House of Guzman"// Osorio Guterres, count
                        (916, 920)whose's generation mixes with the next// Hermenegildo
                        Guterres (869) died 912, count of Coimbra (878), count of Portucale
                        and Tuy, duke.

                        Hermenegildo x Ermesinda Gatones daughter of Gaton, count of Bierzo
                        and had issue: Arias Mendes (911, 924) count of Coimbra (895) x
                        Enderia whose's generation mixed with his brother Guterre//Elvira
                        Mendes, died 921, x ca. 895 Ordonho II king of Leon//
                        Aldonça Mendes, with issue mixed with her sister Inderquina//
                        Inderquina Mendes Pala*, died ca. 947 x Gosendo Eriz, count with
                        issue, among others Ausenda Guterres x to Ramiro II** king of
                        Portucale an King of Leon// Guterre Mendes, count in Galicia, died
                        933

                        Guterre Mendes married Ilduara Eriz (916, 958) and had issue:
                        Monio Guterres, count (911, 959) x Elvira Arias with issue Gonçalo
                        Moniz, count of Coimbra (928, 981) x Tutadona Forjaz (981)//
                        Ermesinda Guterres (929, 934) x Paio Gonçalves, count // Saint
                        Rosendo (born 907, died 977), bishop of Mondoñedo// Ausenda Guterres
                        (934, 951) x Ximeno Dias (died 961)//Froila Guterres (933, 943) x
                        Sarracina (936, 942) with issue//
                        etc.

                        *A Herança Genética de D. Afonso Henriques - Luiz de Mello
                        Vaz de Sao Payo - Porto - 2002

                        >What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
                        >Islamic rule"?
                        By issue I mean generation

                        > In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship
                        >to Witika?
                        The oldest documents for this question are the donations to the
                        Monastery of Lorvao, near Coimbra, in 770 from Teudo, count of
                        Coimbra and great-great-grandson of Egica, publisd by Frei Bernardo
                        de Brito. Other genealogists say Sisebuto was a son of Vitiza, but
                        this is not well accepted nowadays. You must not then take much
                        confidence from this as historians don't agree at all, even today.
                        The "great picture" seems clear nevertheless.
                      • faltin2001
                        Hello all, the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an interesting issue. However, here are some thoughts that might be important to
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
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                          Hello all,

                          the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
                          interesting issue. However, here are some thoughts that might be
                          important to bear in mind:

                          Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                          Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                          Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which has
                          been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                          distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                          mainly as Spaniards.

                          The chronicles of 754 also makes no mentioning of Visigoths for the
                          whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a separate
                          Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                          time of the Moslem conquest. However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                          from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. In
                          these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                          irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                          important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                          legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                          association with the previous dynasty.

                          I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                          identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, probably
                          in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were seen as
                          legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                          opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                          think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble families
                          should mainly be seen in this context. They were more a reflection of
                          Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality connected
                          directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course not
                          change the fact that some of the oldest noble families (especially in
                          regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this was
                          mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                          assumed importance in later centuries.

                          cheers,

                          Dirk

















                          --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Ximenez:
                          > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to
                          some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                          > Ben
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                          > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
                          Carvalho)
                          > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
                          Portuguese
                          > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must
                          have
                          > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in
                          711.
                          > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
                          > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                          > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
                          ["mtDNA"
                          > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                          > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 1996)."
                          The
                          > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                          > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
                          > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
                          been
                          > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
                          modern
                          > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
                          >
                          > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
                          right. The
                          > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
                          question in
                          > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
                          Eastern
                          > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                          > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
                          entered
                          > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
                          before
                          > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                          > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
                          Impressed
                          > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                          > respectively.
                          >
                          > Enough for now-
                          > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                          > Cheers,
                          > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • F. E. Ximenez
                          Dear Dirk, ... What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition? What exactly would it take to legitimize a Visigothic identity ? ... SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
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                            Dear Dirk,

                            faltin2001 wrote:

                            > Hello all,
                            >
                            > the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
                            > interesting issue. However,

                            What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition?
                            What exactly would it take to legitimize a "Visigothic identity"?

                            > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                            > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                            > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which has
                            > been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                            > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                            > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no mentioning of
                            > Visigoths for the
                            > whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a separate
                            > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                            > time of the Moslem conquest.

                            SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                            1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
                            mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.
                            2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis) mentions
                            certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths. One
                            such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells us: "They
                            wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                            embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two white
                            asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days went
                            about”. With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 ) peculiar
                            equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were identified
                            as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over A as
                            well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is that
                            they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could not
                            have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of leather
                            straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                            Galdecano, P.M., “Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles” 1919: 42).
                            The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still alive in
                            710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                            3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many others
                            that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
                            history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
                            province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME THE
                            URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
                            MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
                            Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
                            ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS ATTESTED
                            IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822 CE.
                            (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda reinstates
                            the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                            "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF
                            THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).

                            > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                            > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. In
                            > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                            > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                            > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                            > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                            > association with the previous dynasty.
                            >
                            > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                            > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, probably
                            > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were seen as
                            > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                            > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                            > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble families
                            > should mainly be seen in this context.

                            There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a great
                            majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to have
                            been aware of their ancestry and its implications.

                            > They were more a reflection of
                            > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality connected
                            > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course not
                            > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families (especially in
                            > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this was

                            > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                            > assumed importance in later centuries.

                            The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose that any
                            individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
                            (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous populations
                            of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
                            fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the 40,000
                            Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim to be
                            of English descent, but is he really?.

                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > cheers,
                            >
                            > Dirk
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Hi Ximenez:
                            > > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to
                            > some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                            > > Ben
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                            > > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
                            > Carvalho)
                            > > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
                            > Portuguese
                            > > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must
                            > have
                            > > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in
                            > 711.
                            > > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
                            > > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                            > > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
                            > ["mtDNA"
                            > > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                            >
                            > > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 1996)."
                            > The
                            > > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                            > > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
                            > > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
                            > been
                            > > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
                            > modern
                            > > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
                            > >
                            > > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
                            > right. The
                            > > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
                            > question in
                            > > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
                            > Eastern
                            > > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                            > > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
                            > entered
                            > > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
                            > before
                            > > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                            > > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
                            > Impressed
                            > > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                            > > respectively.
                            > >
                            > > Enough for now-
                            > > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                            > > Cheers,
                            > > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                            > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                            > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
                            > >
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                            > Service.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
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                            > >
                            > >
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                          • F. E. Ximenez
                            Greetings Pat, The Basque are one of my favorite ethnicities to study. I am sending you a citation for one work, however, it might be a bit tenuous to bring up
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 13, 2002
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                              Greetings Pat,

                              The Basque are one of my favorite ethnicities to study.

                              I am sending you a citation for one work, however, it might be a bit tenuous to bring up the subject of "the Basques" in a
                              Gothic list. Simply stated, the Basques are outlyers in all mtDNA comparisons. There has been gene flow to the immediate
                              outlying areas "geographically" but only in the recent past.

                              Try:
                              "Human Mitochondrial DNA variation and the origin of the Basques" - 1994.
                              also - Bertrandpetit & Cavalli-Sforza -1991 and Calafell & Bertrandpetit - 1994
                              reconstructed the genetic population history (so to speak) of most of Europe taking special note of the Basques.

                              Pat Christiansen wrote:

                              > Hi Ximenez:
                              > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                              > Ben
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                              > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                              > “may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                              > …” Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                              > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                              > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (“Genetic
                              > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula” -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                              > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … “the majority of Iberian [“mtDNA”
                              > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                              > Europe [“being quite close or identical”] (Richards et al. 1996).” The
                              > study further states “only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                              > originate in north Africa”… “It seems therefore that the genetic
                              > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                              > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                              > mtDNA gene pool” (of Iberia).
                              >
                              > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                              > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                              > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                              > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                              > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                              > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                              > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                              > evidence of agriculture as well as the “Linienbandkeramik” and Impressed
                              > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                              > respectively.
                              >
                              > Enough for now-
                              > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                              > Cheers,
                              > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                              >
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                            • Sahin Ahmet
                              Dear Ximenez, I must say I am impressed with your findings, however which part of the iberian peninsula do you mean. I do not think iberian peninsula does
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 14, 2002
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                                Dear Ximenez,
                                I must say I am impressed with your findings, however which part of the iberian peninsula do you mean. I do not think iberian peninsula does have a very uniform DNA pattern. do you speak of andalucia? or catalania, extramadurra?
                                To what extent DNA analysis is reliable? What do you mean by central or northern europe(slavic,germanic?).Did you have any information about DNA anlaysis in anatolia.
                                As for the basque people, I believe they are a proto-indoeuropean people of the europe who managed to preserve their identity and language like albanians.
                                "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                                I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                                �may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                                �� Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                                occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                                However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (�Genetic
                                diversity in the Iberian Peninsula� -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                                Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that � �the majority of Iberian [�mtDNA�
                                (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                                Europe [�being quite close or identical�] (Richards et al. 1996).� The
                                study further states �only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                                originate in north Africa�� �It seems therefore that the genetic
                                contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                                considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                                mtDNA gene pool� (of Iberia).

                                On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                                presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                                present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                                populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                                indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                                and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                                present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                                evidence of agriculture as well as the �Linienbandkeramik� and Impressed
                                Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                                respectively.

                                Enough for now-
                                Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                                Cheers,
                                Frithunanths Ximenez.





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                              • faltin2001
                                ... Hi F.E. Ximenez, I meant this only in general terms. A Visigothic identity can be real or perceived. I think it is possible that it was revived in
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 15, 2002
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                                  --- In gothic-l@y..., "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote:
                                  > Dear Dirk,
                                  >
                                  > faltin2001 wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Hello all,
                                  > >
                                  > > the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
                                  > > interesting issue. However,
                                  >
                                  > What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition?
                                  > What exactly would it take to legitimize a "Visigothic identity"?


                                  Hi F.E. Ximenez,

                                  I meant this only in general terms. A Visigothic identity can be real
                                  or perceived. I think it is possible that it was revived in
                                  retrospect during the medieval period, when it was usefull as a non-
                                  Muslem identity and legitimacy.




                                  >
                                  > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                                  > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                                  > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which
                                  has
                                  > > been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                                  > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                                  > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                                  mentioning of
                                  > > Visigoths for the
                                  > > whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a
                                  separate
                                  > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                                  > > time of the Moslem conquest.
                                  >
                                  > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                                  > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
                                  > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.


                                  Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                                  Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus indicating
                                  that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also only
                                  natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                                  elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                                  term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                                  most of them.





                                  > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                                  mentions
                                  > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths.
                                  One
                                  > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                                  us: "They
                                  > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                                  > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two
                                  white
                                  > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days
                                  went
                                  > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                                  peculiar
                                  > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                                  identified
                                  > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over
                                  A as
                                  > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is
                                  that
                                  > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could
                                  not
                                  > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                                  leather
                                  > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                                  > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles" 1919:
                                  42).
                                  > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                                  alive in
                                  > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                                  > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                                  others
                                  > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
                                  > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
                                  > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME
                                  THE
                                  > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
                                  > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
                                  > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
                                  > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                                  ATTESTED
                                  > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822
                                  CE.
                                  > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                                  reinstates
                                  > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                                  > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                                  ORGANIZATION OF
                                  > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                                  >


                                  I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment that
                                  I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .





                                  > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                                  > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king.
                                  In
                                  > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                                  > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                                  > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                                  > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                                  > > association with the previous dynasty.
                                  > >
                                  > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                                  > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                                  probably
                                  > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were
                                  seen as
                                  > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                                  > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                                  > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                                  families
                                  > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                                  >
                                  > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a
                                  great
                                  > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to
                                  have
                                  > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                                  >


                                  That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and Berber
                                  elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage between
                                  Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.




                                  > > They were more a reflection of
                                  > > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality
                                  connected
                                  > > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course
                                  not
                                  > > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families
                                  (especially in
                                  > > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this
                                  was
                                  >
                                  > > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                                  > > assumed importance in later centuries.
                                  >
                                  > The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose
                                  that any
                                  > individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
                                  > (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous
                                  populations
                                  > of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
                                  > fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the
                                  40,000
                                  > Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim
                                  to be
                                  > of English descent, but is he really?.
                                  >


                                  I don't think that the words 'partly' and 'decent' are very
                                  problematic. These supposedly Visigothic nobles would almost
                                  invariably have had also Roman and other local ancestors. So their
                                  decent can only have been partly Visigothic at any rate. A. Schwarcz
                                  has shown in an article on Visigothic elites in the 5th century, that
                                  even Visigothic military leaders were sometimes actually Roman
                                  aristocrats. What will have mainly mattered to them in the 7th/8th
                                  centuries was the fact that they were Catholic Christians. This was
                                  something that united them with all other Catholic Hispani in the
                                  country and distinguished them from Moslems and Jews.

                                  cheers,
                                  Dirk




                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi Ximenez:
                                  > > > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me
                                  to
                                  > > some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                                  > > > Ben
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                                  > > > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
                                  > > Carvalho)
                                  > > > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
                                  > > Portuguese
                                  > > > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture,
                                  must
                                  > > have
                                  > > > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom
                                  in
                                  > > 711.
                                  > > > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
                                  > > > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real;
                                  Macaulay;
                                  > > > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
                                  > > ["mtDNA"
                                  > > > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and
                                  northern
                                  > >
                                  > > > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al.
                                  1996)."
                                  > > The
                                  > > > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages
                                  appear to
                                  > > > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
                                  > > > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
                                  > > been
                                  > > > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
                                  > > modern
                                  > > > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
                                  > > right. The
                                  > > > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
                                  > > question in
                                  > > > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
                                  > > Eastern
                                  > > > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                                  > > > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
                                  > > entered
                                  > > > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
                                  > > before
                                  > > > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                                  > > > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
                                  > > Impressed
                                  > > > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                                  > > > respectively.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Enough for now-
                                  > > > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                                  > > > Cheers,
                                  > > > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
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                                • F. E. Ximenez
                                  ... What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the sundry citations Bertil
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                    Greetings again Dirk:


                                    > > Hi F.E. Ximenez,
                                    >
                                    > > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                                    > > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                                    > > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which
                                    > > > has been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                                    > > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                                    > > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                                    > > > mentioning of Visigoths for the whole period from 711,
                                    > > > which also underlines the fact that a separate
                                    > > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                                    >
                                    > > > time of the Moslem conquest.

                                    > > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:

                                    > > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
                                    > > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.

                                    > Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                                    > Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus indicating
                                    > that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also only
                                    > natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                                    > elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                                    > term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                                    > most of them.

                                    What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a
                                    Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the
                                    sundry citations Bertil has cited?

                                    Perhaps you are looking at it as "a glass half empty", on the other
                                    hand, perhaps I am looking at it as "a glass half full": Thus, in the
                                    latter view, perhaps the "Spaniards" that you speak of (had been) or
                                    (were in the process of) for lack of a better term, becoming
                                    "Gothicized". An interesting question to ponder is [whose identity was
                                    becoming amorphous, that of the Hispano Romans or that of the
                                    Visigoths?]. I dare think that both were becoming amorphous, that is,
                                    lacking the form each of those identities had early on in the Visigothic
                                    period. Nothing is static after all; the culture of the Goths under
                                    Ermanaric was no longer the same culture by the time Wallia was anointed
                                    king - by that time - were they still Visigoths, or something else ?
                                    (Surely, there is a point at which an identity becomes so amorphous that
                                    it becomes forgotten or can no longer be discerned). There seems to be
                                    good evidence that a strong Visigothic identity remained viable well
                                    into the founding of the Castilian Kingdom. Even at present, many people
                                    (especially north of Madrid) still identify with their Visigothic
                                    heritage. It is strongest in Asturias where the bulk of Visigothic
                                    palaces, churches and relics still exist and whose emblem is the cross
                                    of Victory; the processional cross that Pelayo the Visigothic Noble is
                                    mythically purported to have seen in a vision before he defeated the
                                    Moors at Covadonga. As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders as
                                    descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at Tenerife
                                    (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                                    sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to Spanish
                                    mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                                    wintertime. ----

                                    Nonetheless, getting back to our discussion - Shortly after the time of
                                    the Germanic invasions Europe can be seen as a crucible in which the
                                    cultures of a rapidly declining Roman empire and the relatively newly
                                    arrived cultures of Germanic peoples (which had ascended into power)
                                    combined in ways that became the foundation for the Europe of today. Not
                                    wholly Germanic and not wholly Roman in tradition (Certainly Catholic).
                                    Undeniably however, is the fact that Europe is in great part (so to
                                    speak) a "Germanic" interpretation of the Roman Empire (The Holy Roman
                                    Empire) with its (Germanic) emperor.

                                    > > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                                    > mentions
                                    > > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths.
                                    > One
                                    > > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                                    > us: "They
                                    > > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                                    > > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two
                                    > white
                                    > > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days
                                    > went
                                    > > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                                    > peculiar
                                    > > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                                    > identified
                                    > > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over
                                    > A as
                                    > > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is
                                    > that
                                    > > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could
                                    > not
                                    > > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                                    > leather
                                    > > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                                    > > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles" 1919:
                                    > 42).
                                    > > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                                    > alive in
                                    > > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                                    > > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                                    > others
                                    > > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
                                    > > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
                                    >
                                    > > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME
                                    > THE
                                    > > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
                                    > > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
                                    >
                                    > > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
                                    > > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                                    > ATTESTED
                                    > > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822
                                    > CE.
                                    > > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                                    > reinstates
                                    > > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                                    > > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                                    > ORGANIZATION OF
                                    > > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment that
                                    > I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .
                                    >

                                    Unfortunately, the latter is dismissed quite readily!

                                    >
                                    > > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                                    > > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king.
                                    > In
                                    > > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                                    > > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                                    > > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                                    > > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                                    > > > association with the previous dynasty.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                                    > > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                                    > probably
                                    > > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista',

                                    When do you think the Reconquista started?
                                    It started in 722, eleven years after the defeat at Covadonga, under
                                    Pelayo, a Visigothic noble. There was no need to resurrect an ethnic
                                    identity since no ethnic identity had died.

                                    > when the Visigoths were
                                    > seen as
                                    > > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                                    > > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                                    > > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                                    > families
                                    > > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                                    > >
                                    > > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a
                                    > great
                                    > > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to
                                    > have
                                    > > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and Berber
                                    > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage between
                                    > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.

                                    Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the north,
                                    where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                                    (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim influence -
                                    and another area to the south under Moorish domination where Moors,
                                    using propaganda tried to legitimize their caliphate.
                                    There were a few marriages in the occupied areas, NOT in Asturias. The
                                    mtDNA paper I discussed earlier in another thread bears this out.

                                    > > > They were more a reflection of
                                    > > > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality
                                    > connected
                                    > > > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course
                                    > not
                                    > > > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families
                                    > (especially in
                                    > > > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this
                                    > was
                                    > >
                                    > > > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                                    > > > assumed importance in later centuries.
                                    > >
                                    > > The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose
                                    > that any
                                    > > individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
                                    >
                                    > > (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous
                                    > populations
                                    > > of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
                                    >
                                    > > fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the
                                    > 40,000
                                    > > Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim
                                    > to be
                                    > > of English descent, but is he really?.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I don't think that the words 'partly' and 'decent' are very
                                    > problematic. These supposedly Visigothic nobles would almost
                                    > invariably have had also Roman and other local ancestors. So their
                                    > decent can only have been partly Visigothic at any rate.

                                    That IS precisely the point - that IS the reality - everyone is ALWAYS
                                    only part (anything), especially in Europe - whether we call ourselves
                                    Swedes or English, Dutch or French, we are only PARTLY Swedish or Dutch
                                    or French because we are always related to some other ethnicity
                                    somewhere along the line.

                                    > A. Schwarcz
                                    > has shown in an article on Visigothic elites in the 5th century, that
                                    > even Visigothic military leaders were sometimes actually Roman
                                    > aristocrats. What will have mainly mattered to them in the 7th/8th
                                    > centuries was the fact that they were Catholic Christians. This was
                                    > something that united them with all other Catholic Hispani in the
                                    > country and distinguished them from Moslems and Jews.

                                    Wholeheartedly agreed here!


                                    I suppose that this topic brings to mind the question: What was it that
                                    made a Goth a Goth or a Visigoth a Visigoth? His language, his customs,
                                    allegiance to a leader, religious belief, (all - or some of these
                                    things?). In kind of the same way, when do we stop calling him Goth or
                                    Visigoth? This may be an interesting question for a future topic.
                                    Regardless of the extant literature it may be interesting to revisit
                                    this at some point.

                                    Cheers,
                                    F. Ximenez


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • faltin2001
                                    ... Wambae ... and ... which ... themselves ... by the ... not ... indicating ... only ... Hi, I would have to believe you since you seem to know the sources
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                      --- In gothic-l@y..., "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote:
                                      > Greetings again Dirk:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > > > Hi F.E. Ximenez,
                                      > >
                                      > > > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia
                                      Wambae
                                      > > > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani
                                      and
                                      > > > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain,
                                      which
                                      > > > > has been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                                      > > > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered
                                      themselves
                                      > > > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                                      > > > > mentioning of Visigoths for the whole period from 711,
                                      > > > > which also underlines the fact that a separate
                                      > > > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept
                                      by the
                                      > >
                                      > > > > time of the Moslem conquest.
                                      >
                                      > > > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                                      >
                                      > > > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for
                                      not
                                      > > > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.
                                      >
                                      > > Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                                      > > Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus
                                      indicating
                                      > > that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also
                                      only
                                      > > natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                                      > > elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                                      > > term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                                      > > most of them.
                                      >
                                      > What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a
                                      > Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the
                                      > sundry citations Bertil has cited?




                                      Hi,

                                      I would have to believe you since you seem to know the sources better
                                      than me. I cited only from recent academic literature on these
                                      questions.






                                      >
                                      > Perhaps you are looking at it as "a glass half empty", on the other
                                      > hand, perhaps I am looking at it as "a glass half full": Thus, in
                                      the
                                      > latter view, perhaps the "Spaniards" that you speak of (had been) or
                                      > (were in the process of) for lack of a better term, becoming
                                      > "Gothicized".



                                      Certainly, cultural influences moved both ways. But the Visigoths
                                      were only a tiny minority. The 'Tabulatura Gentes' of about 520AD
                                      suggestest that the Visigothic language was already dying out at this
                                      time, as it calls the Visigoths of Spain the 'Romanic speaking
                                      Goths'. With the abandonment of Arianism in the late 6th century
                                      there was really no barrier to complete absorbtion into an
                                      overwhelming majority.





                                      An interesting question to ponder is [whose identity was
                                      > becoming amorphous, that of the Hispano Romans or that of the
                                      > Visigoths?]. I dare think that both were becoming amorphous, that
                                      is,
                                      > lacking the form each of those identities had early on in the
                                      Visigothic
                                      > period.




                                      I kind of agree. The Romano-Iberian identiy and the Visigothic
                                      identity were merging into the Hispanic identity.





                                      Nothing is static after all; the culture of the Goths under
                                      > Ermanaric was no longer the same culture by the time Wallia was
                                      anointed
                                      > king - by that time - were they still Visigoths, or something else ?
                                      > (Surely, there is a point at which an identity becomes so amorphous
                                      that
                                      > it becomes forgotten or can no longer be discerned).



                                      One thing is certain though, Visigothic history ends in 711AD. Even
                                      the polities that remained outside direct Arab rule did not call
                                      themselves Visigothic.





                                      There seems to be
                                      > good evidence that a strong Visigothic identity remained viable well
                                      > into the founding of the Castilian Kingdom. Even at present, many
                                      people
                                      > (especially north of Madrid) still identify with their Visigothic
                                      > heritage.



                                      In reality, however, those people will largely be of Celt-Iberian
                                      origin.





                                      It is strongest in Asturias where the bulk of Visigothic
                                      > palaces, churches and relics still exist and whose emblem is the
                                      cross
                                      > of Victory; the processional cross that Pelayo the Visigothic Noble
                                      is
                                      > mythically purported to have seen in a vision before he defeated the
                                      > Moors at Covadonga. As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders
                                      as
                                      > descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at
                                      Tenerife
                                      > (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                                      > sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to
                                      Spanish
                                      > mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                                      > wintertime. ----



                                      Just to add another similar anecdote: When I was on Sicily in May, I
                                      learned that we Germans are also still called 'Suevi' there.




                                      >
                                      > Nonetheless, getting back to our discussion - Shortly after the
                                      time of
                                      > the Germanic invasions Europe can be seen as a crucible in which the
                                      > cultures of a rapidly declining Roman empire and the relatively
                                      newly
                                      > arrived cultures of Germanic peoples (which had ascended into power)
                                      > combined in ways that became the foundation for the Europe of
                                      today. Not
                                      > wholly Germanic and not wholly Roman in tradition (Certainly
                                      Catholic).
                                      > Undeniably however, is the fact that Europe is in great part (so to
                                      > speak) a "Germanic" interpretation of the Roman Empire (The Holy
                                      Roman
                                      > Empire) with its (Germanic) emperor.



                                      I agree.





                                      >
                                      > > > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                                      > > mentions
                                      > > > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the
                                      Visigoths.
                                      > > One
                                      > > > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                                      > > us: "They
                                      > > > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                                      > > > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by
                                      two
                                      > > white
                                      > > > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those
                                      days
                                      > > went
                                      > > > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                                      > > peculiar
                                      > > > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                                      > > identified
                                      > > > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V
                                      over
                                      > > A as
                                      > > > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits
                                      is
                                      > > that
                                      > > > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider
                                      could
                                      > > not
                                      > > > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                                      > > leather
                                      > > > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                                      > > > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles"
                                      1919:
                                      > > 42).
                                      > > > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                                      > > alive in
                                      > > > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                                      > > > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                                      > > others
                                      > > > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods
                                      in
                                      > > > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is
                                      now the
                                      > >
                                      > > > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS),
                                      BECAME
                                      > > THE
                                      > > > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER
                                      THE
                                      > > > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground
                                      of the
                                      > >
                                      > > > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct
                                      Visigothic
                                      > > > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                                      > > ATTESTED
                                      > > > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR
                                      822
                                      > > CE.
                                      > > > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                                      > > reinstates
                                      > > > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                                      > > > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                                      > > ORGANIZATION OF
                                      > > > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment
                                      that
                                      > > I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      > Unfortunately, the latter is dismissed quite readily!
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                                      > > > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate
                                      king.
                                      > > In
                                      > > > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                                      > > > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                                      > > > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their
                                      own
                                      > > > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                                      > > > > association with the previous dynasty.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                                      > > > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                                      > > probably
                                      > > > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista',
                                      >
                                      > When do you think the Reconquista started?
                                      > It started in 722, eleven years after the defeat at Covadonga, under
                                      > Pelayo, a Visigothic noble. There was no need to resurrect an ethnic
                                      > identity since no ethnic identity had died.





                                      I think the activities of Pelagius of Asturias are better seen as
                                      local uprisings and revolts. In 722AD the Christians of Spain were
                                      not really 'reconqering' Spain. In fact, the Moors continued to
                                      expand there power and influence at that time even attacking the
                                      Franks in 732AD. The 'Reconquista' gained real pace only at the end
                                      of the 12th century under Alfons VIII. and Alfons X..








                                      >
                                      > > when the Visigoths were
                                      > > seen as
                                      > > > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of
                                      Spain, as
                                      > > > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate
                                      usurpers. I
                                      > > > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                                      > > families
                                      > > > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for
                                      a
                                      > > great
                                      > > > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem
                                      to
                                      > > have
                                      > > > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and
                                      Berber
                                      > > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage
                                      between
                                      > > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.
                                      >
                                      > Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the north,
                                      > where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                                      > (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim
                                      influence -



                                      Don't foreget, it was probably a part of the Visigothic nobles who
                                      had invited the Moors to Spain in the first place. Apparently, it was
                                      the heirs of Witiza's clan who sought Muslem support to regain the
                                      throne. Thus, many Visigothic nobles will not have had any reason to
                                      flee let alone starting a Reconquista.

                                      The speed with which the Visigothic kingdom collapsed seems to
                                      support the view that a good deal of the old elite co-operated and co-
                                      habitated nicely with the Moors. Certainly, taxes were easier under
                                      the Moors, percecutions of Jews stopped and the Moors were even quite
                                      tolerant vis-a-vis the Catholics. The majority population and
                                      apparently a good deal of the nobles were not really prepared to put
                                      up a long fight against the Muslems when they first arrived.

                                      cheers
                                      Dirk
                                    • Carlos Carvalho
                                      Also in Latin America (Spanish speaking) Godos is mockery for Spaniard and has, a stronger connotation as it appeared during the Independence wars. Probably
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                        Also in Latin America (Spanish speaking) Godos is mockery for Spaniard and
                                        has, a stronger connotation as it appeared during the Independence wars.
                                        Probably based on their genealogical assumptions.

                                        Regards,

                                        Carlos Carvalho
                                        (Maia - Portugal)


                                        As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders
                                        as
                                        > descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at
                                        Tenerife
                                        > (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                                        > sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to
                                        Spanish
                                        > mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                                        > wintertime. ----
                                      • faltin2001
                                        ... period. ... north, ... was ... to ... co- ... quite ... put ... Hi again, just to add to the above-said, I checked with J.M. Wallace-Hadrill s book The
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                          >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and
                                          > Berber
                                          > > > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage
                                          > between
                                          > > > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding
                                          period.
                                          > >
                                          > > Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the
                                          north,
                                          > > where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                                          > > (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim
                                          > influence -
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Don't foreget, it was probably a part of the Visigothic nobles who
                                          > had invited the Moors to Spain in the first place. Apparently, it
                                          was
                                          > the heirs of Witiza's clan who sought Muslem support to regain the
                                          > throne. Thus, many Visigothic nobles will not have had any reason
                                          to
                                          > flee let alone starting a Reconquista.
                                          >
                                          > The speed with which the Visigothic kingdom collapsed seems to
                                          > support the view that a good deal of the old elite co-operated and
                                          co-
                                          > habitated nicely with the Moors. Certainly, taxes were easier under
                                          > the Moors, percecutions of Jews stopped and the Moors were even
                                          quite
                                          > tolerant vis-a-vis the Catholics. The majority population and
                                          > apparently a good deal of the nobles were not really prepared to
                                          put
                                          > up a long fight against the Muslems when they first arrived.
                                          >

                                          Hi again,

                                          just to add to the above-said, I checked with J.M. Wallace-Hadrill's
                                          book 'The Barbarian West...". The author confirms that the leading
                                          Arab elites married into the royal Visigothic house. The author also
                                          provides texts of peace treaties between Visigothic nobles and Arabs,
                                          which show that the Visigoths by and large had no reason to flee the
                                          country. In fact, many seemed to have welcomed the rather leniend
                                          rule of the Arabs. Remember, that Recceswinth had killed a large part
                                          of the Visigothic nobility (perhaps even the majority) in the mid 7th
                                          century. Thus, the remaining nobility was rather weary of a close-by
                                          Visigothic king.

                                          Also, Wallace-Hadrill expresses the opinion that the later Spanish
                                          identity with the Visigoths is more a perceived identity that
                                          was 'created' in opposition to the Moslem conquerers rather than a
                                          real biological decendence and/or uninterrupted tradition.


                                          cheers,

                                          Dirk
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