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Counts of Coimbra ?

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  • mazgallos
    Good Evening, This is my introducing message. I ve been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving inevitably to their environment which has
    Message 1 of 20 , Jul 7, 2002
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      Good Evening,

      This is my introducing message.
      I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
      inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of years
      as
      farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
      area, 100
      km from Porto.
      The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a church
      patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
      occupation). The
      origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio Carvalho
      (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
      of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen documents
      by the
      second quarter of the 12th century.

      Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
      genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
      Coimbra (or
      more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
      Hermenegildo
      Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
      Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
      kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.

      Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
      delirious
      genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have evidence
      of
      some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
      region
      itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or even
      a
      professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for ignorance.

      If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
      let me
      know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
      and (a
      few) certitudes.

      Thanks a lot,

      Carlos Carvalho

      Sorry but all sources are in portuguese
      # denotes inedit conclusions
      * Manuscrito da Casa de Telho, described in Felgeria Rubeas - Eduardo
      de
      Freitas - Felgueiras 1985
      ** Works of Jose Anes Arnado
      ** Nobiliario de Familias de Portugal - Felgueiras Gayo - Braga 1992
      (3rd
      volume title Carvalhos)
    • Sahin Ahmet
      since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all people in europe has some connection to other people may it be goths.lets say, hunnic people
      Message 2 of 20 , Jul 7, 2002
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        since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all people in europe has some connection to other people may it be goths.lets say, hunnic people who originated in altai mountains(turkic) had eventually settled in europe. where are they now? possibly every european has also a turkic&mongolian connection. if we think in this respect, you may also have cosiderable connection to the arabic people as a portuguese.so speaking of ancestors is a little bit a vague in my opinion.
        mazgallos <cdecarvalho@...> wrote: Good Evening,

        This is my introducing message.
        I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
        inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of years
        as
        farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
        area, 100
        km from Porto.
        The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a church
        patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
        occupation). The
        origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio Carvalho
        (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
        of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen documents
        by the
        second quarter of the 12th century.

        Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
        genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
        Coimbra (or
        more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
        Hermenegildo
        Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
        Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
        kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.

        Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
        delirious
        genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have evidence
        of
        some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
        region
        itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or even
        a
        professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for ignorance.

        If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
        let me
        know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
        and (a
        few) certitudes.

        Thanks a lot,

        Carlos Carvalho

        Sorry but all sources are in portuguese
        # denotes inedit conclusions
        * Manuscrito da Casa de Telho, described in Felgeria Rubeas - Eduardo
        de
        Freitas - Felgueiras 1985
        ** Works of Jose Anes Arnado
        ** Nobiliario de Familias de Portugal - Felgueiras Gayo - Braga 1992
        (3rd
        volume title Carvalhos)





        You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.

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      • Bertil Haggman
        To Carlos Carvalho, Finding your contribution on July 7 of great interest. The center of the Visigothic kingdom was Toledo in Spain. The rule included much of
        Message 3 of 20 , Jul 9, 2002
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          To Carlos Carvalho,

          Finding your contribution on July 7 of great interest. The
          center of the Visigothic kingdom was Toledo in Spain.
          The rule included much of present day Portugal (Coimbra=
          Conimbrica?). Witika ruled 697-710 (he died in February
          710, presumably after being blinded by Roderich, the
          last Visigothic king) and he was the son of Egika,
          who died in 701 in Toledo. Did Witika have a brother?
          Have not been able to find out but maybe somebody on the
          list can provide the answer.

          What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
          Islamic rule"?

          Very little is known about Witika. Most information is related
          to about 100 years after his death (Chronicle of Mossaic (around
          818).

          In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship to Witika?

          Gothically

          Bertil


          > This is my introducing message.
          > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
          > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of years
          > as
          > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
          > area, 100
          > km from Porto.
          > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a church
          > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
          > occupation). The
          > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio Carvalho
          > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
          > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen documents
          > by the
          > second quarter of the 12th century.
          >
          > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
          > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
          > Coimbra (or
          > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
          > Hermenegildo
          > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
          > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
          > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
          >
          > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
          > delirious
          > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have evidence
          > of
          > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
          > region
          > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or even
          > a
          > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for ignorance.
          >
          > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
          > let me
          > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
          > and (a
          > few) certitudes.
          >
        • F. E. Jimenez
          Carlos, Welcome! Fear not, though your query about genealogy may not be poignant to the usual interests and subjects discussed on this list, I believe you
          Message 4 of 20 , Jul 9, 2002
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            Carlos,
            Welcome!
            Fear not, though your query about genealogy may not be poignant to the
            "usual" interests and subjects discussed on this list, I believe you
            will find some subscribers (here) to be very helpful and curious
            concerning all aspects of Gothic culture and its ensuing heritage. I for
            one find your topic a refreshing change from the "usual" diversion and
            obviously quite relevant to things Gothic (Visigothic).

            First off- you should not find it odd that you ‘may’ have discovered
            connections to Gothic ancestors since such connections are quite common
            and often "documented" as far back as the “Urbs Regia” of Oviedo and
            even the Visigothic reign of Toledo. People in the Iberian Peninsula
            have long had a Penchant for systematic, thorough record keeping both in
            its ecclesiastical and lay institutions; a practice that first begun
            when Iberia became the Roman province of "Hispania".

            For several reasons (which would be too lengthy to cover here), record
            keeping was also "de rigueur" during the Visigothic kingdom at Toledo
            and after 711 when Oviedo (in Asturias) became the “Urbs Regia”.
            Nonetheless, early on, during the Reconquest it became practical and
            important to substantiate one’s Visigothic parentage for several
            reasons, e.g. to ensure one’s noble title and/or the possible return of
            a family's land holdings and political office enjoyed prior to the
            invasion of 711 (should the latter lands be wrested from the occupiers
            by the Reconquest).

            Individuals that could prove Visigothic parentage were called “Hidalgos”
            [a contraction of Hijo-d’al-godos] meaning (son of the Goths) in the
            formative Castilian language. The latter term is still very much in use
            and is used to refer to an individual that though lacking noble title
            can prove ancestry to a Visigothic lineage. --- The latter however, has
            a dark side. Certification of Visigothic ancestry was highly sought
            after during the “limpieza de sangre” when the notorious (laws) of
            “purity of blood” were passed. They in essence relegated anything other
            than European-Hispano/Visigothic descent as un-Spanish and un-Christian.
            Purity of blood was eventually used as an argument for the expulsion
            from Spain of what were deemed “undesirable ethnic elements”.

            A bit of practical advice and a caveat as regards your genealogical
            research:
            First – Hiring a reputable, professional genealogist (even on a part
            time basis) is worth the money. They will find things faster and in
            places that you would never have thought to look (private family
            libraries et al.. Once proof of lineage is found you might want to make
            application for a certificate to the "Conselho de Nobreza" (Council of
            the Nobility), which was formed under the authority of the Duke of
            Braganca, head of the Royal house of Portugal, though it is my belief
            that Spain will also accept and process such claims. (The Duke of
            Braganca would be the present King of Portugal, if Portugal had remained
            a monarchy instead of a republic).

            Secondly – When we “do” find such ancestral lineages it is only truly
            meaningful as a matter of romantic curiosity. The most compelling
            genetic evidence to date indicates that all humans are part of the same
            family; we are all related back to a common ancestor and are a product
            of the myriad people that comprise our particular lineage. The terms
            applied to groups such as “Goths”, “Angles”, “Saxons”, “(H)eruls”,
            “Germans” “Turks” etc are either linguistic or cultural designations
            that allow us the expediency of categorization. Language, culture and
            experiences are not hereditary. Furthermore, no group is imbued with
            ‘intrinsic’ importance, prestige etc. Speaking as a molecular
            anthropologist, there are no discrete genetic signatures for Celts or
            Angles, Saxons or Goths.

            Lastly - Though personal genealogy is a subject that has to my knowledge
            never been discussed on this list. There have been sundry contributions
            that make mention of the heritage left to the present as a result of the
            Spanish (Iberian) Gothia. I recommend that you search the archives and
            more specifically, that you look for this list’s discussion (some two
            years ago) concerning the origin of the suffixes of Spanish (or
            Portuguese) surnames Ximen[ez], Rodrigu[ez]; ( iz, az, es as, etc)… I
            found ‘that’ thread particularly interesting.

            Again welcome, and I hope you find this list beneficial.

            Frithunanths Elatheus Ximenez.
          • mazgallos
            First of all let me make clear that genealogy is not the main point I intended to raise in this list, it was only the basic reason behind my doubts. In this
            Message 5 of 20 , Jul 10, 2002
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              First of all let me make clear that genealogy is
              not the main point I intended to raise in this list,
              it was only the basic reason behind my doubts.
              In this case it could only be important if an uninterrupted male line
              could be established (and preferably more than one).
              Then a DNA test would be used as a way to investigate
              the coherence of the lines and of any other genetic material of the
              goth people.

              I don't have yet a proof of a specific male Goth ascent,
              although some "nobiliarios" say so, but this is far from enough.
              To be frank (oops !) I admit that we never would be able to get there,
              but maybe we learn something important on the way.
              Why not give it a try ?

              I do agree with you in the general idea:
              after some time everybody is anyone's cousin,
              Arabic people for example was not a basic component
              in Hispanic population because they appeared mainly in higher
              ranks which, by the way, made matters worse for unequal marriages,
              discounting any spurious children. It is obvious however that some
              kind of physical relationship exists between the populations at both
              sides of the Mediterranean: Moors they were, berberic stock. But
              previous massive migrations occurred before, in pre-historical times.

              Nevertheless most of the Portuguese population
              (and probably the Spaniards as well) have a line that leads to
              the Arabs and the Prophet himself (as Queen Elizabeth II)
              via several royal descendents that mixed and disappeared within the
              common people. So an "unimportant" 1/10000...0000 of ascent becomes
              important due to social rank.

              A Portuguese sailor arrives in Japan in the XVI century and has a
              child there. Is it important for the Japanese ? Yes ! This was the
              man who passed away the genes of "paramioldosis" a hereditary disease
              that occurs almost only in Portugal and Japan.

              So to understand ourselves nowadays I believe we must understand how
              and who our ancestors were ... and a butterfly in Peking ...

              Kind Regards,

              Carlos Carvalho


              --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
              >
              > since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all
              people in europe has some connection to other people may it be
              goths.lets say, hunnic people who originated in altai mountains
              (turkic) had eventually settled in europe. where are they now?
              possibly every european has also a turkic&mongolian connection. if
              we think in this respect, you may also have cosiderable connection to
              the arabic people as a portuguese.so speaking of ancestors is a
              little bit a vague in my opinion.
              > mazgallos <cdecarvalho@c...> wrote: Good Evening,
              >
              > This is my introducing message.
              > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
              > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of
              years
              > as
              > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
              > area, 100
              > km from Porto.
              > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a
              church
              > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
              > occupation). The
              > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio
              Carvalho
              > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
              > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen
              documents
              > by the
              > second quarter of the 12th century.
              >
              > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
              > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
              > Coimbra (or
              > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
              > Hermenegildo
              > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
              > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
              > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
              >
              > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
              > delirious
              > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have
              evidence
              > of
              > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
              > region
              > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or
              even
              > a
              > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for
              ignorance.
              >
              > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
              > let me
              > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
              > and (a
              > few) certitudes.
              >
              > Thanks a lot,
              >
              > Carlos Carvalho
              >
              > Sorry but all sources are in portuguese
              > # denotes inedit conclusions
              > * Manuscrito da Casa de Telho, described in Felgeria Rubeas -
              Eduardo
              > de
              > Freitas - Felgueiras 1985
              > ** Works of Jose Anes Arnado
              > ** Nobiliario de Familias de Portugal - Felgueiras Gayo - Braga
              1992
              > (3rd
              > volume title Carvalhos)
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
              blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Sahin Ahmet
              mazgallos wrote: First of all let me make clear that genealogy is not the main point I intended to raise in this list, it was only the
              Message 6 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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                mazgallos <cdecarvalho@...> wrote: First of all let me make clear that genealogy is
                not the main point I intended to raise in this list,
                it was only the basic reason behind my doubts.
                In this case it could only be important if an uninterrupted male line
                could be established (and preferably more than one).
                Then a DNA test would be used as a way to investigate
                the coherence of the lines and of any other genetic material of the
                goth people.

                I don't have yet a proof of a specific male Goth ascent,
                although some "nobiliarios" say so, but this is far from enough.
                To be frank (oops !) I admit that we never would be able to get there,
                but maybe we learn something important on the way.
                Why not give it a try ?

                I do agree with you in the general idea:
                after some time everybody is anyone's cousin,
                Arabic people for example was not a basic component
                in Hispanic population because they appeared mainly in higher
                ranks which, by the way, made matters worse for unequal marriages,
                discounting any spurious children. It is obvious however that some
                kind of physical relationship exists between the populations at both
                sides of the Mediterranean: Moors they were, berberic stock. But
                previous massive migrations occurred before, in pre-historical times.

                Nevertheless most of the Portuguese population
                (and probably the Spaniards as well) have a line that leads to
                the Arabs and the Prophet himself (as Queen Elizabeth II)
                via several royal descendents that mixed and disappeared within the
                common people. So an "unimportant" 1/10000...0000 of ascent becomes
                important due to social rank.

                A Portuguese sailor arrives in Japan in the XVI century and has a
                child there. Is it important for the Japanese ? Yes ! This was the
                man who passed away the genes of "paramioldosis" a hereditary disease
                that occurs almost only in Portugal and Japan.

                So to understand ourselves nowadays I believe we must understand how
                and who our ancestors were ... and a butterfly in Peking ...

                Kind Regards,

                Carlos Carvalho


                --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
                >
                > since gots did not vanish or perish, it is usual to think that all
                people in europe has some connection to other people may it be
                goths.lets say, hunnic people who originated in altai mountains
                (turkic) had eventually settled in europe. where are they now?
                possibly every european has also a turkic&mongolian connection. if
                we think in this respect, you may also have cosiderable connection to
                the arabic people as a portuguese.so speaking of ancestors is a
                little bit a vague in my opinion.
                > mazgallos <cdecarvalho@c...> wrote: Good Evening,
                >
                > This is my introducing message.
                > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years, deriving
                > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of
                years
                > as
                > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around Viseu
                > area, 100
                > km from Porto.
                > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a
                church
                > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
                > occupation). The
                > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio
                Carvalho
                > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
                > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen
                documents
                > by the
                > second quarter of the 12th century.
                >
                > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
                > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
                > Coimbra (or
                > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
                > Hermenegildo
                > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
                > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
                > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
                >
                > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
                > delirious
                > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have
                evidence
                > of
                > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to the
                > region
                > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or
                even
                > a
                > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for
                ignorance.
                >
                > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group please
                > let me
                > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts, questions
                > and (a
                > few) certitudes.
                >
                > Thanks a lot,
                >
                > Carlos Carvalho
                >
                > Sorry but all sources are in portuguese
                > # denotes inedit conclusions
                > * Manuscrito da Casa de Telho, described in Felgeria Rubeas -
                Eduardo
                > de
                > Freitas - Felgueiras 1985
                > ** Works of Jose Anes Arnado
                > ** Nobiliario de Familias de Portugal - Felgueiras Gayo - Braga
                1992
                > (3rd
                > volume title Carvalhos)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.

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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sahin Ahmet
                sorry for the previous accidental empty message. ... Do You Yahoo!? New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access [Non-text portions of this message
                Message 7 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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                  sorry for the previous accidental empty message.



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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • F. E. Ximenez
                  Greetings Sahin, I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho) “may have considerable connection to the Arabic people as a
                  Message 8 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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                    Greetings Sahin,
                    I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                    “may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                    …” Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                    occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                    However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (“Genetic
                    diversity in the Iberian Peninsula” -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                    Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … “the majority of Iberian [“mtDNA”
                    (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                    Europe [“being quite close or identical”] (Richards et al. 1996).” The
                    study further states “only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                    originate in north Africa”… “It seems therefore that the genetic
                    contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                    considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                    mtDNA gene pool” (of Iberia).

                    On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                    presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                    present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                    populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                    indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                    and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                    present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                    evidence of agriculture as well as the “Linienbandkeramik” and Impressed
                    Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                    respectively.

                    Enough for now-
                    Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                    Cheers,
                    Frithunanths Ximenez.
                  • mazgallos
                    Coimbra was previously Aeminium but as the neighbour and important roman village called Conimbriga was destroyed during the barbaric invasions it took the name
                    Message 9 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
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                      Coimbra was previously Aeminium but as the neighbour and
                      important roman village called Conimbriga was destroyed
                      during the barbaric invasions it took the name through the
                      bishopbry name.
                      Regarding Witiza the genealogy is believed to follow this way*:
                      ( I will use the portuguese forms, please ask me if any doubt arises)

                      Vitiza (son of Egica and Cixilona) had issue:
                      Oimundo, Romulo and Ardabasto (count of the christians in Cordoba)

                      Vitiza had brothers: Opa (bishop of Seville)
                      Sisebuto (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                      Sisebuto had issue: Ataulfo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                      Ataulfo had issue: Atanarico (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                      Atanarico had issue: Teudo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                      Teudo was documented in (770, 801/2, 805)
                      Teudo had issue: Teodorico (805)// Ataulfo (805)(Bishop of Iria 843-
                      851)// Nunilo x Bermudo, Prince of Asturias (812) having a large
                      issue which spread in Portugal and Galicia// Mencia (?) x with Soeiro
                      Belfaguer that appear in the Sousa family origin// Hermenegildo (805,
                      841) captain of the royal guard.

                      Hermenegildo had issue: Guterre, count (860,875)
                      Guterre x Elvira and had issue: Alvito (915) x Argilo//
                      N.(unknown Name) Guterres x Monio Nunes de Roa, count of Castille
                      giving among others the "House of Guzman"// Osorio Guterres, count
                      (916, 920)whose's generation mixes with the next// Hermenegildo
                      Guterres (869) died 912, count of Coimbra (878), count of Portucale
                      and Tuy, duke.

                      Hermenegildo x Ermesinda Gatones daughter of Gaton, count of Bierzo
                      and had issue: Arias Mendes (911, 924) count of Coimbra (895) x
                      Enderia whose's generation mixed with his brother Guterre//Elvira
                      Mendes, died 921, x ca. 895 Ordonho II king of Leon//
                      Aldonça Mendes, with issue mixed with her sister Inderquina//
                      Inderquina Mendes Pala*, died ca. 947 x Gosendo Eriz, count with
                      issue, among others Ausenda Guterres x to Ramiro II** king of
                      Portucale an King of Leon// Guterre Mendes, count in Galicia, died
                      933

                      Guterre Mendes married Ilduara Eriz (916, 958) and had issue:
                      Monio Guterres, count (911, 959) x Elvira Arias with issue Gonçalo
                      Moniz, count of Coimbra (928, 981) x Tutadona Forjaz (981)//
                      Ermesinda Guterres (929, 934) x Paio Gonçalves, count // Saint
                      Rosendo (born 907, died 977), bishop of Mondoñedo// Ausenda Guterres
                      (934, 951) x Ximeno Dias (died 961)//Froila Guterres (933, 943) x
                      Sarracina (936, 942) with issue//
                      etc.

                      *A Herança Genética de D. Afonso Henriques - Luiz de Mello
                      Vaz de Sao Payo - Porto - 2002

                      >What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
                      >Islamic rule"?
                      By issue I mean generation

                      > In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship
                      >to Witika?
                      The oldest documents for this question are the donations to the
                      Monastery of Lorvao, near Coimbra, in 770 from Teudo, count of
                      Coimbra and great-great-grandson of Egica, publisd by Frei Bernardo
                      de Brito. Other genealogists say Sisebuto was a son of Vitiza, but
                      this is not well accepted nowadays. You must not then take much
                      confidence from this as historians don't agree at all, even today.
                      The "great picture" seems clear nevertheless.

                      Best Regards,

                      Carlos Carvalho

                      --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                      > To Carlos Carvalho,
                      >
                      > Finding your contribution on July 7 of great interest. The
                      > center of the Visigothic kingdom was Toledo in Spain.
                      > The rule included much of present day Portugal (Coimbra=
                      > Conimbrica?). Witika ruled 697-710 (he died in February
                      > 710, presumably after being blinded by Roderich, the
                      > last Visigothic king) and he was the son of Egika,
                      > who died in 701 in Toledo. Did Witika have a brother?
                      > Have not been able to find out but maybe somebody on the
                      > list can provide the answer.
                      >
                      > What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
                      > Islamic rule"?
                      >
                      > Very little is known about Witika. Most information is related
                      > to about 100 years after his death (Chronicle of Mossaic (around
                      > 818).
                      >
                      > In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship
                      to Witika?
                      >
                      > Gothically
                      >
                      > Bertil
                      >
                      >
                      > > This is my introducing message.
                      > > I've been following my ancestors roots for about 20 years,
                      deriving
                      > > inevitably to their environment which has been for hundreds of
                      years
                      > > as
                      > > farmers by the inland mountains of northern Portugal, around
                      Viseu
                      > > area, 100
                      > > km from Porto.
                      > > The research on male line, quite surprisingly to me, lead to a
                      church
                      > > patronage (gave away in the 17th century during the Spanish
                      > > occupation). The
                      > > origin of this patronage is traditionally attributed to Paio
                      Carvalho
                      > > (Pelagius Karvalio), probably son
                      > > of Tructesindo Vermuiz #, the former was present in a dozen
                      documents
                      > > by the
                      > > second quarter of the 12th century.
                      > >
                      > > Going further back, at least one Portuguese manuscript*, and other
                      > > genealogical works**, relate this Paio Carvalho to the Counts of
                      > > Coimbra (or
                      > > more correctly Judges of Coimbra), via Hermenegildo Mendes /
                      > > Hermenegildo
                      > > Guterres, who supposedly descended from Witiza (or his brother
                      > > Sisebuto), one of the last Visigoth
                      > > kings, his issue remaining in Coimbra during the Islamic rule.
                      > >
                      > > Now, before you delete all this and throw it into the "another
                      > > delirious
                      > > genealogy fool" basket, I have to tell you I believe to have
                      evidence
                      > > of
                      > > some kind of gothic relationship not only to this family but to
                      the
                      > > region
                      > > itself. You must understand however that not being a scholar, or
                      even
                      > > a
                      > > professional on the subject, some space must be allowed for
                      ignorance.
                      > >
                      > > If you think this would be pertinent to the discussion group
                      please
                      > > let me
                      > > know, so that I can develop further my (numerous) doubts,
                      questions
                      > > and (a
                      > > few) certitudes.
                      > >
                    • Pat Christiansen
                      Hi Ximenez: Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance. Ben F. E. Ximenez
                      Message 10 of 20 , Jul 11, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Ximenez:
                        Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                        Ben





                        "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                        I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                        �may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                        �� Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                        occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                        However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (�Genetic
                        diversity in the Iberian Peninsula� -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                        Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that � �the majority of Iberian [�mtDNA�
                        (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                        Europe [�being quite close or identical�] (Richards et al. 1996).� The
                        study further states �only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                        originate in north Africa�� �It seems therefore that the genetic
                        contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                        considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                        mtDNA gene pool� (of Iberia).

                        On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                        presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                        present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                        populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                        indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                        and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                        present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                        evidence of agriculture as well as the �Linienbandkeramik� and Impressed
                        Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                        respectively.

                        Enough for now-
                        Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                        Cheers,
                        Frithunanths Ximenez.





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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Bertil Haggman
                        To Carlos Carvalho, Thank you for your detailed recounting of the late Visigothic royal families. It is interesting to learn about the later Visigothic nobles
                        Message 11 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
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                          To Carlos Carvalho,

                          Thank you for your detailed recounting of the late Visigothic
                          royal families. It is interesting to learn about the
                          later Visigothic nobles in Portugal. Generally one is
                          only reminded of the late relative of King Kindasvinth
                          (641-652), the folk hero Pelayo/Pelagius, who hid in the mountains
                          to later fight the Muslims from Asturia.

                          Gothically

                          Bertil


                          Coimbra was previously Aeminium but as the neighbour and
                          important roman village called Conimbriga was destroyed
                          during the barbaric invasions it took the name through the
                          bishopbry name.
                          Regarding Witiza the genealogy is believed to follow this way*:
                          ( I will use the portuguese forms, please ask me if any doubt arises)

                          Vitiza (son of Egica and Cixilona) had issue:
                          Oimundo, Romulo and Ardabasto (count of the christians in Cordoba)

                          Vitiza had brothers: Opa (bishop of Seville)
                          Sisebuto (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                          Sisebuto had issue: Ataulfo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                          Ataulfo had issue: Atanarico (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                          Atanarico had issue: Teudo (count of the christians in Coimbra)

                          Teudo was documented in (770, 801/2, 805)
                          Teudo had issue: Teodorico (805)// Ataulfo (805)(Bishop of Iria 843-
                          851)// Nunilo x Bermudo, Prince of Asturias (812) having a large
                          issue which spread in Portugal and Galicia// Mencia (?) x with Soeiro
                          Belfaguer that appear in the Sousa family origin// Hermenegildo (805,
                          841) captain of the royal guard.

                          Hermenegildo had issue: Guterre, count (860,875)
                          Guterre x Elvira and had issue: Alvito (915) x Argilo//
                          N.(unknown Name) Guterres x Monio Nunes de Roa, count of Castille
                          giving among others the "House of Guzman"// Osorio Guterres, count
                          (916, 920)whose's generation mixes with the next// Hermenegildo
                          Guterres (869) died 912, count of Coimbra (878), count of Portucale
                          and Tuy, duke.

                          Hermenegildo x Ermesinda Gatones daughter of Gaton, count of Bierzo
                          and had issue: Arias Mendes (911, 924) count of Coimbra (895) x
                          Enderia whose's generation mixed with his brother Guterre//Elvira
                          Mendes, died 921, x ca. 895 Ordonho II king of Leon//
                          Aldonça Mendes, with issue mixed with her sister Inderquina//
                          Inderquina Mendes Pala*, died ca. 947 x Gosendo Eriz, count with
                          issue, among others Ausenda Guterres x to Ramiro II** king of
                          Portucale an King of Leon// Guterre Mendes, count in Galicia, died
                          933

                          Guterre Mendes married Ilduara Eriz (916, 958) and had issue:
                          Monio Guterres, count (911, 959) x Elvira Arias with issue Gonçalo
                          Moniz, count of Coimbra (928, 981) x Tutadona Forjaz (981)//
                          Ermesinda Guterres (929, 934) x Paio Gonçalves, count // Saint
                          Rosendo (born 907, died 977), bishop of Mondoñedo// Ausenda Guterres
                          (934, 951) x Ximeno Dias (died 961)//Froila Guterres (933, 943) x
                          Sarracina (936, 942) with issue//
                          etc.

                          *A Herança Genética de D. Afonso Henriques - Luiz de Mello
                          Vaz de Sao Payo - Porto - 2002

                          >What do you mean by "his issue remained in Coimbra during
                          >Islamic rule"?
                          By issue I mean generation

                          > In what way are the documents you mention indicating a relationship
                          >to Witika?
                          The oldest documents for this question are the donations to the
                          Monastery of Lorvao, near Coimbra, in 770 from Teudo, count of
                          Coimbra and great-great-grandson of Egica, publisd by Frei Bernardo
                          de Brito. Other genealogists say Sisebuto was a son of Vitiza, but
                          this is not well accepted nowadays. You must not then take much
                          confidence from this as historians don't agree at all, even today.
                          The "great picture" seems clear nevertheless.
                        • faltin2001
                          Hello all, the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an interesting issue. However, here are some thoughts that might be important to
                          Message 12 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hello all,

                            the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
                            interesting issue. However, here are some thoughts that might be
                            important to bear in mind:

                            Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                            Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                            Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which has
                            been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                            distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                            mainly as Spaniards.

                            The chronicles of 754 also makes no mentioning of Visigoths for the
                            whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a separate
                            Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                            time of the Moslem conquest. However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                            from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. In
                            these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                            irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                            important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                            legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                            association with the previous dynasty.

                            I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                            identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, probably
                            in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were seen as
                            legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                            opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                            think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble families
                            should mainly be seen in this context. They were more a reflection of
                            Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality connected
                            directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course not
                            change the fact that some of the oldest noble families (especially in
                            regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this was
                            mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                            assumed importance in later centuries.

                            cheers,

                            Dirk

















                            --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Ximenez:
                            > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to
                            some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                            > Ben
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                            > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
                            Carvalho)
                            > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
                            Portuguese
                            > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must
                            have
                            > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in
                            711.
                            > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
                            > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                            > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
                            ["mtDNA"
                            > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                            > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 1996)."
                            The
                            > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                            > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
                            > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
                            been
                            > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
                            modern
                            > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
                            >
                            > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
                            right. The
                            > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
                            question in
                            > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
                            Eastern
                            > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                            > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
                            entered
                            > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
                            before
                            > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                            > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
                            Impressed
                            > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                            > respectively.
                            >
                            > Enough for now-
                            > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                            > Cheers,
                            > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • F. E. Ximenez
                            Dear Dirk, ... What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition? What exactly would it take to legitimize a Visigothic identity ? ... SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                            Message 13 of 20 , Jul 12, 2002
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Dear Dirk,

                              faltin2001 wrote:

                              > Hello all,
                              >
                              > the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
                              > interesting issue. However,

                              What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition?
                              What exactly would it take to legitimize a "Visigothic identity"?

                              > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                              > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                              > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which has
                              > been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                              > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                              > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no mentioning of
                              > Visigoths for the
                              > whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a separate
                              > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                              > time of the Moslem conquest.

                              SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                              1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
                              mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.
                              2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis) mentions
                              certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths. One
                              such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells us: "They
                              wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                              embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two white
                              asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days went
                              about”. With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 ) peculiar
                              equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were identified
                              as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over A as
                              well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is that
                              they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could not
                              have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of leather
                              straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                              Galdecano, P.M., “Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles” 1919: 42).
                              The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still alive in
                              710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                              3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many others
                              that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
                              history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
                              province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME THE
                              URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
                              MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
                              Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
                              ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS ATTESTED
                              IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822 CE.
                              (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda reinstates
                              the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                              "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE ORGANIZATION OF
                              THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).

                              > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                              > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king. In
                              > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                              > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                              > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                              > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                              > association with the previous dynasty.
                              >
                              > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                              > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times, probably
                              > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were seen as
                              > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                              > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                              > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble families
                              > should mainly be seen in this context.

                              There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a great
                              majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to have
                              been aware of their ancestry and its implications.

                              > They were more a reflection of
                              > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality connected
                              > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course not
                              > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families (especially in
                              > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this was

                              > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                              > assumed importance in later centuries.

                              The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose that any
                              individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
                              (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous populations
                              of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
                              fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the 40,000
                              Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim to be
                              of English descent, but is he really?.

                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > cheers,
                              >
                              > Dirk
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Ximenez:
                              > > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to
                              > some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                              > > Ben
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                              > > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
                              > Carvalho)
                              > > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
                              > Portuguese
                              > > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must
                              > have
                              > > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in
                              > 711.
                              > > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
                              > > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                              > > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
                              > ["mtDNA"
                              > > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                              >
                              > > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al. 1996)."
                              > The
                              > > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                              > > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
                              > > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
                              > been
                              > > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
                              > modern
                              > > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
                              > >
                              > > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
                              > right. The
                              > > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
                              > question in
                              > > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
                              > Eastern
                              > > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                              > > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
                              > entered
                              > > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
                              > before
                              > > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                              > > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
                              > Impressed
                              > > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                              > > respectively.
                              > >
                              > > Enough for now-
                              > > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                              > > Cheers,
                              > > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                              > blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@e...>.
                              > >
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                              > Service.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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                            • F. E. Ximenez
                              Greetings Pat, The Basque are one of my favorite ethnicities to study. I am sending you a citation for one work, however, it might be a bit tenuous to bring up
                              Message 14 of 20 , Jul 13, 2002
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                                Greetings Pat,

                                The Basque are one of my favorite ethnicities to study.

                                I am sending you a citation for one work, however, it might be a bit tenuous to bring up the subject of "the Basques" in a
                                Gothic list. Simply stated, the Basques are outlyers in all mtDNA comparisons. There has been gene flow to the immediate
                                outlying areas "geographically" but only in the recent past.

                                Try:
                                "Human Mitochondrial DNA variation and the origin of the Basques" - 1994.
                                also - Bertrandpetit & Cavalli-Sforza -1991 and Calafell & Bertrandpetit - 1994
                                reconstructed the genetic population history (so to speak) of most of Europe taking special note of the Basques.

                                Pat Christiansen wrote:

                                > Hi Ximenez:
                                > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me to some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                                > Ben
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                                > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                                > “may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                                > …” Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                                > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                                > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (“Genetic
                                > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula” -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                                > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … “the majority of Iberian [“mtDNA”
                                > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                                > Europe [“being quite close or identical”] (Richards et al. 1996).” The
                                > study further states “only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                                > originate in north Africa”… “It seems therefore that the genetic
                                > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                                > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                                > mtDNA gene pool” (of Iberia).
                                >
                                > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                                > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                                > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                                > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                                > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                                > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                                > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                                > evidence of agriculture as well as the “Linienbandkeramik” and Impressed
                                > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                                > respectively.
                                >
                                > Enough for now-
                                > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                                > Cheers,
                                > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                                >
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                              • Sahin Ahmet
                                Dear Ximenez, I must say I am impressed with your findings, however which part of the iberian peninsula do you mean. I do not think iberian peninsula does
                                Message 15 of 20 , Jul 14, 2002
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                                  Dear Ximenez,
                                  I must say I am impressed with your findings, however which part of the iberian peninsula do you mean. I do not think iberian peninsula does have a very uniform DNA pattern. do you speak of andalucia? or catalania, extramadurra?
                                  To what extent DNA analysis is reliable? What do you mean by central or northern europe(slavic,germanic?).Did you have any information about DNA anlaysis in anatolia.
                                  As for the basque people, I believe they are a proto-indoeuropean people of the europe who managed to preserve their identity and language like albanians.
                                  "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                                  I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos Carvalho)
                                  �may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a Portuguese
                                  �� Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture, must have
                                  occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom in 711.
                                  However it is quite the contrary; - the published work (�Genetic
                                  diversity in the Iberian Peninsula� -1996 - Corte Real; Macaulay;
                                  Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that � �the majority of Iberian [�mtDNA�
                                  (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and northern
                                  Europe [�being quite close or identical�] (Richards et al. 1996).� The
                                  study further states �only a small proportion of lineages appear to
                                  originate in north Africa�� �It seems therefore that the genetic
                                  contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has been
                                  considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the modern
                                  mtDNA gene pool� (of Iberia).

                                  On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite right. The
                                  presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in question in
                                  present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle Eastern
                                  populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                                  indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East entered
                                  and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years before
                                  present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                                  evidence of agriculture as well as the �Linienbandkeramik� and Impressed
                                  Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                                  respectively.

                                  Enough for now-
                                  Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                                  Cheers,
                                  Frithunanths Ximenez.





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                                • faltin2001
                                  ... Hi F.E. Ximenez, I meant this only in general terms. A Visigothic identity can be real or perceived. I think it is possible that it was revived in
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Jul 15, 2002
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                                    --- In gothic-l@y..., "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote:
                                    > Dear Dirk,
                                    >
                                    > faltin2001 wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Hello all,
                                    > >
                                    > > the continuity of Visigothic tradition in Spain and Portugal is an
                                    > > interesting issue. However,
                                    >
                                    > What exactly do you mean by Visigothic tradition?
                                    > What exactly would it take to legitimize a "Visigothic identity"?


                                    Hi F.E. Ximenez,

                                    I meant this only in general terms. A Visigothic identity can be real
                                    or perceived. I think it is possible that it was revived in
                                    retrospect during the medieval period, when it was usefull as a non-
                                    Muslem identity and legitimacy.




                                    >
                                    > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                                    > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                                    > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which
                                    has
                                    > > been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                                    > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                                    > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                                    mentioning of
                                    > > Visigoths for the
                                    > > whole period from 711, which also underlines the fact that a
                                    separate
                                    > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                                    > > time of the Moslem conquest.
                                    >
                                    > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                                    > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
                                    > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.


                                    Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                                    Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus indicating
                                    that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also only
                                    natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                                    elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                                    term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                                    most of them.





                                    > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                                    mentions
                                    > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths.
                                    One
                                    > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                                    us: "They
                                    > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                                    > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two
                                    white
                                    > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days
                                    went
                                    > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                                    peculiar
                                    > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                                    identified
                                    > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over
                                    A as
                                    > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is
                                    that
                                    > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could
                                    not
                                    > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                                    leather
                                    > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                                    > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles" 1919:
                                    42).
                                    > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                                    alive in
                                    > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                                    > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                                    others
                                    > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
                                    > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
                                    > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME
                                    THE
                                    > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
                                    > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
                                    > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
                                    > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                                    ATTESTED
                                    > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822
                                    CE.
                                    > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                                    reinstates
                                    > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                                    > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                                    ORGANIZATION OF
                                    > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                                    >


                                    I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment that
                                    I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .





                                    > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                                    > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king.
                                    In
                                    > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                                    > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                                    > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                                    > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                                    > > association with the previous dynasty.
                                    > >
                                    > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                                    > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                                    probably
                                    > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista', when the Visigoths were
                                    seen as
                                    > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                                    > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                                    > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                                    families
                                    > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                                    >
                                    > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a
                                    great
                                    > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to
                                    have
                                    > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                                    >


                                    That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and Berber
                                    elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage between
                                    Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.




                                    > > They were more a reflection of
                                    > > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality
                                    connected
                                    > > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course
                                    not
                                    > > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families
                                    (especially in
                                    > > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this
                                    was
                                    >
                                    > > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                                    > > assumed importance in later centuries.
                                    >
                                    > The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose
                                    that any
                                    > individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
                                    > (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous
                                    populations
                                    > of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
                                    > fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the
                                    40,000
                                    > Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim
                                    to be
                                    > of English descent, but is he really?.
                                    >


                                    I don't think that the words 'partly' and 'decent' are very
                                    problematic. These supposedly Visigothic nobles would almost
                                    invariably have had also Roman and other local ancestors. So their
                                    decent can only have been partly Visigothic at any rate. A. Schwarcz
                                    has shown in an article on Visigothic elites in the 5th century, that
                                    even Visigothic military leaders were sometimes actually Roman
                                    aristocrats. What will have mainly mattered to them in the 7th/8th
                                    centuries was the fact that they were Catholic Christians. This was
                                    something that united them with all other Catholic Hispani in the
                                    country and distinguished them from Moslems and Jews.

                                    cheers,
                                    Dirk




                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In gothic-l@y..., Pat Christiansen <tigerlipped@y...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hi Ximenez:
                                    > > > Where do the Basque fit into this picture? Could you direct me
                                    to
                                    > > some recent studies on the Basque? Thank you in advance.
                                    > > > Ben
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote: Greetings Sahin,
                                    > > > I believe it is you who stated (as your opinion) that (Carlos
                                    > > Carvalho)
                                    > > > "may have considerable connection to the 'Arabic' people as a
                                    > > Portuguese
                                    > > > …" Your statement seems to infer that considerable admixture,
                                    must
                                    > > have
                                    > > > occurred (after) the Moorish invasion of the Visigothic Kingdom
                                    in
                                    > > 711.
                                    > > > However it is quite the contrary; - the published work ("Genetic
                                    > > > diversity in the Iberian Peninsula" -1996 - Corte Real;
                                    Macaulay;
                                    > > > Bertranpetit and Sykes) found that … "the majority of Iberian
                                    > > ["mtDNA"
                                    > > > (mitochondrial DNA)] lineages resemble those of central and
                                    northern
                                    > >
                                    > > > Europe ["being quite close or identical"] (Richards et al.
                                    1996)."
                                    > > The
                                    > > > study further states "only a small proportion of lineages
                                    appear to
                                    > > > originate in north Africa"… "It seems therefore that the genetic
                                    > > > contribution by the Moorish presence in the peninsula, which has
                                    > > been
                                    > > > considered by some as substantial, has left little trace in the
                                    > > modern
                                    > > > mtDNA gene pool" (of Iberia).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On the other hand, according to the same study, you are quite
                                    > > right. The
                                    > > > presence of a transition at position 126 of the haplotype in
                                    > > question in
                                    > > > present European populations (found at a 50% frequency in Middle
                                    > > Eastern
                                    > > > populations) and from (6%-12% in European populations ) seems to
                                    > > > indicate that several waves of immigrants from the Middle East
                                    > > entered
                                    > > > and settled in Europe in the period between 6000 and 12000 years
                                    > > before
                                    > > > present. Generally - the latter seems to coincide with the first
                                    > > > evidence of agriculture as well as the "Linienbandkeramik" and
                                    > > Impressed
                                    > > > Ware cultures of central Europe and the Mediterranean coast
                                    > > > respectively.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Enough for now-
                                    > > > Will answer other mail when I'm back in the office on Friday.
                                    > > > Cheers,
                                    > > > Frithunanths Ximenez.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
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                                  • F. E. Ximenez
                                    ... What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the sundry citations Bertil
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                      Greetings again Dirk:


                                      > > Hi F.E. Ximenez,
                                      >
                                      > > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia Wambae
                                      > > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani and
                                      > > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain, which
                                      > > > has been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                                      > > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered themselves
                                      > > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                                      > > > mentioning of Visigoths for the whole period from 711,
                                      > > > which also underlines the fact that a separate
                                      > > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept by the
                                      >
                                      > > > time of the Moslem conquest.

                                      > > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:

                                      > > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for not
                                      > > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.

                                      > Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                                      > Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus indicating
                                      > that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also only
                                      > natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                                      > elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                                      > term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                                      > most of them.

                                      What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a
                                      Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the
                                      sundry citations Bertil has cited?

                                      Perhaps you are looking at it as "a glass half empty", on the other
                                      hand, perhaps I am looking at it as "a glass half full": Thus, in the
                                      latter view, perhaps the "Spaniards" that you speak of (had been) or
                                      (were in the process of) for lack of a better term, becoming
                                      "Gothicized". An interesting question to ponder is [whose identity was
                                      becoming amorphous, that of the Hispano Romans or that of the
                                      Visigoths?]. I dare think that both were becoming amorphous, that is,
                                      lacking the form each of those identities had early on in the Visigothic
                                      period. Nothing is static after all; the culture of the Goths under
                                      Ermanaric was no longer the same culture by the time Wallia was anointed
                                      king - by that time - were they still Visigoths, or something else ?
                                      (Surely, there is a point at which an identity becomes so amorphous that
                                      it becomes forgotten or can no longer be discerned). There seems to be
                                      good evidence that a strong Visigothic identity remained viable well
                                      into the founding of the Castilian Kingdom. Even at present, many people
                                      (especially north of Madrid) still identify with their Visigothic
                                      heritage. It is strongest in Asturias where the bulk of Visigothic
                                      palaces, churches and relics still exist and whose emblem is the cross
                                      of Victory; the processional cross that Pelayo the Visigothic Noble is
                                      mythically purported to have seen in a vision before he defeated the
                                      Moors at Covadonga. As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders as
                                      descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at Tenerife
                                      (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                                      sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to Spanish
                                      mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                                      wintertime. ----

                                      Nonetheless, getting back to our discussion - Shortly after the time of
                                      the Germanic invasions Europe can be seen as a crucible in which the
                                      cultures of a rapidly declining Roman empire and the relatively newly
                                      arrived cultures of Germanic peoples (which had ascended into power)
                                      combined in ways that became the foundation for the Europe of today. Not
                                      wholly Germanic and not wholly Roman in tradition (Certainly Catholic).
                                      Undeniably however, is the fact that Europe is in great part (so to
                                      speak) a "Germanic" interpretation of the Roman Empire (The Holy Roman
                                      Empire) with its (Germanic) emperor.

                                      > > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                                      > mentions
                                      > > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the Visigoths.
                                      > One
                                      > > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                                      > us: "They
                                      > > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                                      > > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by two
                                      > white
                                      > > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those days
                                      > went
                                      > > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                                      > peculiar
                                      > > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                                      > identified
                                      > > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V over
                                      > A as
                                      > > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits is
                                      > that
                                      > > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider could
                                      > not
                                      > > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                                      > leather
                                      > > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                                      > > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles" 1919:
                                      > 42).
                                      > > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                                      > alive in
                                      > > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                                      > > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                                      > others
                                      > > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods in
                                      > > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is now the
                                      >
                                      > > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS), BECAME
                                      > THE
                                      > > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER THE
                                      > > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground of the
                                      >
                                      > > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct Visigothic
                                      > > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                                      > ATTESTED
                                      > > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR 822
                                      > CE.
                                      > > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                                      > reinstates
                                      > > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                                      > > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                                      > ORGANIZATION OF
                                      > > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment that
                                      > I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .
                                      >

                                      Unfortunately, the latter is dismissed quite readily!

                                      >
                                      > > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                                      > > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate king.
                                      > In
                                      > > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                                      > > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                                      > > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their own
                                      > > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                                      > > > association with the previous dynasty.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                                      > > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                                      > probably
                                      > > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista',

                                      When do you think the Reconquista started?
                                      It started in 722, eleven years after the defeat at Covadonga, under
                                      Pelayo, a Visigothic noble. There was no need to resurrect an ethnic
                                      identity since no ethnic identity had died.

                                      > when the Visigoths were
                                      > seen as
                                      > > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of Spain, as
                                      > > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate usurpers. I
                                      > > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                                      > families
                                      > > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                                      > >
                                      > > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for a
                                      > great
                                      > > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem to
                                      > have
                                      > > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and Berber
                                      > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage between
                                      > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.

                                      Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the north,
                                      where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                                      (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim influence -
                                      and another area to the south under Moorish domination where Moors,
                                      using propaganda tried to legitimize their caliphate.
                                      There were a few marriages in the occupied areas, NOT in Asturias. The
                                      mtDNA paper I discussed earlier in another thread bears this out.

                                      > > > They were more a reflection of
                                      > > > Christian Medieval Spanish identity rather than a reality
                                      > connected
                                      > > > directly to the end of the Visigothic period. This does of course
                                      > not
                                      > > > change the fact that some of the oldest noble families
                                      > (especially in
                                      > > > regions like Asturias) were partly of Visigothic decent, but this
                                      > was
                                      > >
                                      > > > mostly irrelevant in the context of the late 7th century but only
                                      > > > assumed importance in later centuries.
                                      > >
                                      > > The word "partly" and "descent" are very problematic. I suppose
                                      > that any
                                      > > individual may be "partly" descended from many different things e.g.
                                      >
                                      > > (apes, paleolithic people, Celts, the ancient autochtonous
                                      > populations
                                      > > of certain areas. An Englishman may be all of the latter despite the
                                      >
                                      > > fact that he and his ancestors may have lived in Anglia since the
                                      > 40,000
                                      > > Angles landed there in the early fifth century thus, he may claim
                                      > to be
                                      > > of English descent, but is he really?.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > I don't think that the words 'partly' and 'decent' are very
                                      > problematic. These supposedly Visigothic nobles would almost
                                      > invariably have had also Roman and other local ancestors. So their
                                      > decent can only have been partly Visigothic at any rate.

                                      That IS precisely the point - that IS the reality - everyone is ALWAYS
                                      only part (anything), especially in Europe - whether we call ourselves
                                      Swedes or English, Dutch or French, we are only PARTLY Swedish or Dutch
                                      or French because we are always related to some other ethnicity
                                      somewhere along the line.

                                      > A. Schwarcz
                                      > has shown in an article on Visigothic elites in the 5th century, that
                                      > even Visigothic military leaders were sometimes actually Roman
                                      > aristocrats. What will have mainly mattered to them in the 7th/8th
                                      > centuries was the fact that they were Catholic Christians. This was
                                      > something that united them with all other Catholic Hispani in the
                                      > country and distinguished them from Moslems and Jews.

                                      Wholeheartedly agreed here!


                                      I suppose that this topic brings to mind the question: What was it that
                                      made a Goth a Goth or a Visigoth a Visigoth? His language, his customs,
                                      allegiance to a leader, religious belief, (all - or some of these
                                      things?). In kind of the same way, when do we stop calling him Goth or
                                      Visigoth? This may be an interesting question for a future topic.
                                      Regardless of the extant literature it may be interesting to revisit
                                      this at some point.

                                      Cheers,
                                      F. Ximenez


                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • faltin2001
                                      ... Wambae ... and ... which ... themselves ... by the ... not ... indicating ... only ... Hi, I would have to believe you since you seem to know the sources
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                        --- In gothic-l@y..., "F. E. Ximenez" <jimenezf01@m...> wrote:
                                        > Greetings again Dirk:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > > > Hi F.E. Ximenez,
                                        > >
                                        > > > > Julian von Toledo (died 690) distinguishes in his Historia
                                        Wambae
                                        > > > > Regis only between Spaniards (Hispani) and Gauls (Septimani
                                        and
                                        > > > > Galli). He does not mention Visigoths (or Suevi) in Spain,
                                        which
                                        > > > > has been interpreted to mean that Visigoths no longer had a
                                        > > > > distinguishable identity by that time, but considered
                                        themselves
                                        > > > > mainly as Spaniards. The chronicles of 754 also makes no
                                        > > > > mentioning of Visigoths for the whole period from 711,
                                        > > > > which also underlines the fact that a separate
                                        > > > > Visigothic identity had become at best an amorphous concept
                                        by the
                                        > >
                                        > > > > time of the Moslem conquest.
                                        >
                                        > > > SOME THINGS TO CONSIDER:
                                        >
                                        > > > 1). There could be reasons (OTHER THAN THE ONES YOU STATE) for
                                        not
                                        > > > mentioning some sort of Visigothic identity in the Wamba Regis.
                                        >
                                        > > Certainly, yet in the Wamba Regis Visigoths were identified as
                                        > > Hispani, which seemed to have been agreeable to them, thus
                                        indicating
                                        > > that a Visigothic identity had become amourphous. This is also
                                        only
                                        > > natural, since Visigothic elites had intermarried with the Roman
                                        > > elites (and other local groups) for several generations. Thus, the
                                        > > term Hispani was likely seen as more accurate than Visigothic for
                                        > > most of them.
                                        >
                                        > What would you say to the Epistolae Wisigothicae (recognizing a
                                        > Visigothic Identity) written shortly after the Wamba Regis plus the
                                        > sundry citations Bertil has cited?




                                        Hi,

                                        I would have to believe you since you seem to know the sources better
                                        than me. I cited only from recent academic literature on these
                                        questions.






                                        >
                                        > Perhaps you are looking at it as "a glass half empty", on the other
                                        > hand, perhaps I am looking at it as "a glass half full": Thus, in
                                        the
                                        > latter view, perhaps the "Spaniards" that you speak of (had been) or
                                        > (were in the process of) for lack of a better term, becoming
                                        > "Gothicized".



                                        Certainly, cultural influences moved both ways. But the Visigoths
                                        were only a tiny minority. The 'Tabulatura Gentes' of about 520AD
                                        suggestest that the Visigothic language was already dying out at this
                                        time, as it calls the Visigoths of Spain the 'Romanic speaking
                                        Goths'. With the abandonment of Arianism in the late 6th century
                                        there was really no barrier to complete absorbtion into an
                                        overwhelming majority.





                                        An interesting question to ponder is [whose identity was
                                        > becoming amorphous, that of the Hispano Romans or that of the
                                        > Visigoths?]. I dare think that both were becoming amorphous, that
                                        is,
                                        > lacking the form each of those identities had early on in the
                                        Visigothic
                                        > period.




                                        I kind of agree. The Romano-Iberian identiy and the Visigothic
                                        identity were merging into the Hispanic identity.





                                        Nothing is static after all; the culture of the Goths under
                                        > Ermanaric was no longer the same culture by the time Wallia was
                                        anointed
                                        > king - by that time - were they still Visigoths, or something else ?
                                        > (Surely, there is a point at which an identity becomes so amorphous
                                        that
                                        > it becomes forgotten or can no longer be discerned).



                                        One thing is certain though, Visigothic history ends in 711AD. Even
                                        the polities that remained outside direct Arab rule did not call
                                        themselves Visigothic.





                                        There seems to be
                                        > good evidence that a strong Visigothic identity remained viable well
                                        > into the founding of the Castilian Kingdom. Even at present, many
                                        people
                                        > (especially north of Madrid) still identify with their Visigothic
                                        > heritage.



                                        In reality, however, those people will largely be of Celt-Iberian
                                        origin.





                                        It is strongest in Asturias where the bulk of Visigothic
                                        > palaces, churches and relics still exist and whose emblem is the
                                        cross
                                        > of Victory; the processional cross that Pelayo the Visigothic Noble
                                        is
                                        > mythically purported to have seen in a vision before he defeated the
                                        > Moors at Covadonga. As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders
                                        as
                                        > descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at
                                        Tenerife
                                        > (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                                        > sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to
                                        Spanish
                                        > mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                                        > wintertime. ----



                                        Just to add another similar anecdote: When I was on Sicily in May, I
                                        learned that we Germans are also still called 'Suevi' there.




                                        >
                                        > Nonetheless, getting back to our discussion - Shortly after the
                                        time of
                                        > the Germanic invasions Europe can be seen as a crucible in which the
                                        > cultures of a rapidly declining Roman empire and the relatively
                                        newly
                                        > arrived cultures of Germanic peoples (which had ascended into power)
                                        > combined in ways that became the foundation for the Europe of
                                        today. Not
                                        > wholly Germanic and not wholly Roman in tradition (Certainly
                                        Catholic).
                                        > Undeniably however, is the fact that Europe is in great part (so to
                                        > speak) a "Germanic" interpretation of the Roman Empire (The Holy
                                        Roman
                                        > Empire) with its (Germanic) emperor.



                                        I agree.





                                        >
                                        > > > 2). Isidore of Seville D.636 (writing prior to the Wamba Regis)
                                        > > mentions
                                        > > > certain traditions, customs and habits peculiar to the
                                        Visigoths.
                                        > > One
                                        > > > such was the way the Visigothic Kings traveled. Isidore tells
                                        > > us: "They
                                        > > > wore a golden crown, were encumbered with a heavy robe of silken
                                        > > > embroidery, and reclined on a litter or car of ivory drawn by
                                        two
                                        > > white
                                        > > > asses led by valets, as was the way the Gothic kings of those
                                        days
                                        > > went
                                        > > > about". With the latter in mind allow me to mention two ( 2 )
                                        > > peculiar
                                        > > > equine bits found by archaeologists some time ago. They were
                                        > > identified
                                        > > > as King Witiza's due to a latten inlay bearing the initials V
                                        over
                                        > > A as
                                        > > > well as their provenance. The curious thing about the TWO bits
                                        is
                                        > > that
                                        > > > they have no fillet reins, which means that a mounted rider
                                        could
                                        > > not
                                        > > > have used them. Instead, we find two rings for the fastening of
                                        > > leather
                                        > > > straps by which a valet could lead the animal about. (Artiñano y
                                        > > > Galdecano, P.M., "Exposición de Hierros Antiguos Españoles"
                                        1919:
                                        > > 42).
                                        > > > The latter shows that certain Visigothic traditions were still
                                        > > alive in
                                        > > > 710 CE, a year prior to the invasion by the Moors.
                                        > > > 3). The Wamba Regis is only one manuscript as opposed to so many
                                        > > others
                                        > > > that do mention a Visigothic identity during different periods
                                        in
                                        > > > history. For example, THE CITY OF UVIÉU, (OVIEDO) IN what is
                                        now the
                                        > >
                                        > > > province of ASTURIAS (AN AREA NEVER BREACHED BY THE MOORS),
                                        BECAME
                                        > > THE
                                        > > > URBS REGIA, THE 'ROYAL SEAT' OF THE (VISIGOTHIC NOBILITY) AFTER
                                        THE
                                        > > > MOORISH INVASION. Oviedo in essence became the staging ground
                                        of the
                                        > >
                                        > > > Reconquest. It was in Oviedo that Alfonse II (of direct
                                        Visigothic
                                        > > > ancestry) reinstates a second Visigothic kingdom. THE LATTER IS
                                        > > ATTESTED
                                        > > > IN HIS OWN WORDS IN THE CHRONICLE OF ALBELDA IN ABOUT THE YEAR
                                        822
                                        > > CE.
                                        > > > (Many years after "Wamba Regis"). The Chronicle of Albelda
                                        > > reinstates
                                        > > > the Visigothic Kingdom at Ovieu in the following words:
                                        > > > "OMNEM GOTORUM ORDINEM SICUT TOLETO FUERAT " ( THE WHOLE
                                        > > ORGANIZATION OF
                                        > > > THE GOTHS JUST AS IT WAS AT TOLEDO).
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > I am not familiar with these sources. Yet, I know the assessment
                                        that
                                        > > I presented has a firm basis in the academic literature .
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Unfortunately, the latter is dismissed quite readily!
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > > > > However, Moslem leaders did claim decent
                                        > > > > from king Witiza, whom they regarded as the last legitimate
                                        king.
                                        > > In
                                        > > > > these claims the Visigothic ethnic component was, however,
                                        > > > > irrelevant - let alone their Christianity of course. What was
                                        > > > > important to the new Moslem/Berber elites was to cement their
                                        own
                                        > > > > legitimacy to rule over Spain by (initially mainly invented)
                                        > > > > association with the previous dynasty.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > I suppose there is reason to believe that a Visigothic ethnic
                                        > > > > identity was only 'resurrected' later during medieval times,
                                        > > probably
                                        > > > > in conjuntion with the 'Reconquista',
                                        >
                                        > When do you think the Reconquista started?
                                        > It started in 722, eleven years after the defeat at Covadonga, under
                                        > Pelayo, a Visigothic noble. There was no need to resurrect an ethnic
                                        > identity since no ethnic identity had died.





                                        I think the activities of Pelagius of Asturias are better seen as
                                        local uprisings and revolts. In 722AD the Christians of Spain were
                                        not really 'reconqering' Spain. In fact, the Moors continued to
                                        expand there power and influence at that time even attacking the
                                        Franks in 732AD. The 'Reconquista' gained real pace only at the end
                                        of the 12th century under Alfons VIII. and Alfons X..








                                        >
                                        > > when the Visigoths were
                                        > > seen as
                                        > > > > legitimate, and above all, Christian Catholic rulers of
                                        Spain, as
                                        > > > > opposed to the Moslems, who were seen as illegitimate
                                        usurpers. I
                                        > > > > think that claims to Visigothic decent by individual noble
                                        > > families
                                        > > > > should mainly be seen in this context.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > There are pedigrees (many directly to the Visigothic kings) for
                                        a
                                        > > great
                                        > > > majority of the Nobles that took refuge in Asturias, many seem
                                        to
                                        > > have
                                        > > > been aware of their ancestry and its implications.
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and
                                        Berber
                                        > > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage
                                        between
                                        > > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding period.
                                        >
                                        > Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the north,
                                        > where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                                        > (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim
                                        influence -



                                        Don't foreget, it was probably a part of the Visigothic nobles who
                                        had invited the Moors to Spain in the first place. Apparently, it was
                                        the heirs of Witiza's clan who sought Muslem support to regain the
                                        throne. Thus, many Visigothic nobles will not have had any reason to
                                        flee let alone starting a Reconquista.

                                        The speed with which the Visigothic kingdom collapsed seems to
                                        support the view that a good deal of the old elite co-operated and co-
                                        habitated nicely with the Moors. Certainly, taxes were easier under
                                        the Moors, percecutions of Jews stopped and the Moors were even quite
                                        tolerant vis-a-vis the Catholics. The majority population and
                                        apparently a good deal of the nobles were not really prepared to put
                                        up a long fight against the Muslems when they first arrived.

                                        cheers
                                        Dirk
                                      • Carlos Carvalho
                                        Also in Latin America (Spanish speaking) Godos is mockery for Spaniard and has, a stronger connotation as it appeared during the Independence wars. Probably
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Jul 19, 2002
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                                          Also in Latin America (Spanish speaking) Godos is mockery for Spaniard and
                                          has, a stronger connotation as it appeared during the Independence wars.
                                          Probably based on their genealogical assumptions.

                                          Regards,

                                          Carlos Carvalho
                                          (Maia - Portugal)


                                          As an aside, the recognition of the mainlanders
                                          as
                                          > descendants of the Goths can be comical. Once as I landed at
                                          Tenerife
                                          > (Canary Islands) for a vacation. One of the first things I saw was a
                                          > sign that read: "Godos Fuerat" [Goths go home!] a reference to
                                          Spanish
                                          > mainlanders who are termed Goths and who flood the beaches in the
                                          > wintertime. ----
                                        • faltin2001
                                          ... period. ... north, ... was ... to ... co- ... quite ... put ... Hi again, just to add to the above-said, I checked with J.M. Wallace-Hadrill s book The
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Jul 21, 2002
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                                            >
                                            > > >
                                            > > > That is well possible. However, as I mentioned also Moslem and
                                            > Berber
                                            > > > elites claimed decent from Witiza and there was intermarriage
                                            > between
                                            > > > Moslem and Christian (Visigothic) elites in the preceeding
                                            period.
                                            > >
                                            > > Remember now- we are talking about two areas here, one in the
                                            north,
                                            > > where the Visigothic nobles retreated and began the Reconquista
                                            > > (Asturias) never breached by the Moors and free of muslim
                                            > influence -
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Don't foreget, it was probably a part of the Visigothic nobles who
                                            > had invited the Moors to Spain in the first place. Apparently, it
                                            was
                                            > the heirs of Witiza's clan who sought Muslem support to regain the
                                            > throne. Thus, many Visigothic nobles will not have had any reason
                                            to
                                            > flee let alone starting a Reconquista.
                                            >
                                            > The speed with which the Visigothic kingdom collapsed seems to
                                            > support the view that a good deal of the old elite co-operated and
                                            co-
                                            > habitated nicely with the Moors. Certainly, taxes were easier under
                                            > the Moors, percecutions of Jews stopped and the Moors were even
                                            quite
                                            > tolerant vis-a-vis the Catholics. The majority population and
                                            > apparently a good deal of the nobles were not really prepared to
                                            put
                                            > up a long fight against the Muslems when they first arrived.
                                            >

                                            Hi again,

                                            just to add to the above-said, I checked with J.M. Wallace-Hadrill's
                                            book 'The Barbarian West...". The author confirms that the leading
                                            Arab elites married into the royal Visigothic house. The author also
                                            provides texts of peace treaties between Visigothic nobles and Arabs,
                                            which show that the Visigoths by and large had no reason to flee the
                                            country. In fact, many seemed to have welcomed the rather leniend
                                            rule of the Arabs. Remember, that Recceswinth had killed a large part
                                            of the Visigothic nobility (perhaps even the majority) in the mid 7th
                                            century. Thus, the remaining nobility was rather weary of a close-by
                                            Visigothic king.

                                            Also, Wallace-Hadrill expresses the opinion that the later Spanish
                                            identity with the Visigoths is more a perceived identity that
                                            was 'created' in opposition to the Moslem conquerers rather than a
                                            real biological decendence and/or uninterrupted tradition.


                                            cheers,

                                            Dirk
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