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Re: Goths, Gauti, Goetaland, Gotland

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  • einarbirg
    ... the ... #### I agree with your main points.But the situation was more complex. ... see ... The ... #####Nothing comes from nothing. I dont belief that the
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 11, 2002
      --- In gothic-l@y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...> wrote:
      > >--- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
      > >> _The Role of Migration in the History of the
      > > > Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
      > >> 'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
      > >> London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
      > >> ______________________________________
      > >>
      > >>
      ####### Hæ Tore.
      >
      > Einar,
      > You are right in one way. However we are talking about different
      > millennia. In the late Vendel period early Viking age it is very
      > different. I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
      the
      > immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
      > the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
      > states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
      > British isles-Island.

      #### I agree with your main points.But the situation was more complex.
      #####
      >
      > Bertil is talking about the Bronze age and the Roman Iron age.
      >
      > If you have read Anders Kaliffs book "Gothis Connections" you can
      see
      > that there was a common culture in present day Poland, Gotland and
      > some coastal areas of eastern Sweden.
      > This is how it looked like when the Wielbark culture was formed.
      The
      > claim by many is that the Wielbark culture was an indigenous formed
      > culture will therefore include Gotland and some coastal areas of
      > eastern Sweden.

      #####Nothing comes from nothing. I dont belief that the Wielbark
      culture was formed and sustained like out of the blue air without
      cultural influences from other areas.So i agree,mainly####
      >
      > There was probably much movement within this cultural area. It
      looks
      > very much like the Gotlandic merchants were very influential and
      > probably dominated the amber trade. We have archaeological proof
      for
      > Gotlandic trading colonies from the Bronze age and forward in this
      > cultural area. Why some continental scholars are so much against
      > Gotlandic involvement I don't know.

      #### I dont know either. Very probably the role of Gotland has been
      underestimated. Same could be the case with other islands in the
      Baltic. Though Gotland is biggest and in the middle so to say###
      >
      > Just look at what we dig out from the earth every year.
      > Just now they are showing parts of the "Spilling viking treasure"
      at
      > the Historical museum in Stockholm, the largest viking silver
      > treasure found in the world.
      >
      ####Yes,the role of Gotland has probably been underestimated###

      Cheers Einar
      > Tore
      > --
    • hrafnsnest
      Tore wrote: I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is the ... Hail Tore! I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 22, 2002
        Tore wrote: "I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
        the
        > immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
        > the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
        > states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
        > British isles-Island."

        Hail Tore!
        I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
        settlement into the areas that you mention, especially Iceland.
        Rather than read through the many postings regarding this issue, I
        shall ask the following, what are your principal sources, from what
        geographical point(s) do you see them eminating from? And what
        information is there to point to the (H)eruls movement to Iceland?

        Odhvaknir
      • Tore Gannholm
        ... Hi! I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is something that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his sources. I have
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 22, 2002
          >Tore wrote: "I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
          >the
          >> immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
          >> the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
          >> states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
          >> British isles-Island."
          >
          >Hail Tore!
          > I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
          >settlement into the areas that you mention, especially Iceland.
          >Rather than read through the many postings regarding this issue, I
          >shall ask the following, what are your principal sources, from what
          >geographical point(s) do you see them eminating from? And what
          >information is there to point to the (H)eruls movement to Iceland?
          >
          >Odhvaknir
          >

          Hi!

          I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is something
          that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
          sources.

          I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class to
          the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
          rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
          established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations in
          Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
          In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian rivers
          and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.

          Tore
          --
        • hrafnsnest
          Hail Tore! My apologies. I mistook ..British isles - Island. , for Iceland. What type of things are they finding at these sites that would indicate they were
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
            Hail Tore!
            My apologies. I mistook "..British isles - Island.", for Iceland.
            What type of things are they finding at these sites that would
            indicate they were (H)eruli?
            Odhvaknir

            > I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is
            something
            > that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
            > sources.
            >
            > I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class
            to
            > the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
            > rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
            > established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations
            in
            > Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
            > In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian
            rivers
            > and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.
            >
            > Tore
            > --
          • Tore Gannholm
            Hi! Have you read my conclusions on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/parla_/svear/default.htm Tore ... --
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
              Hi!
              Have you read my conclusions on
              http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/parla_/svear/default.htm

              Tore

              >Hail Tore!
              >My apologies. I mistook "..British isles - Island.", for Iceland.
              >What type of things are they finding at these sites that would
              >indicate they were (H)eruli?
              >Odhvaknir
              >
              >> I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is
              >something
              >> that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
              >> sources.
              >>
              >> I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class
              >to
              >> the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
              >> rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
              >> established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations
              >in
              >> Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
              >> In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian
              >rivers
              >> and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.
              >>
              >> Tore
              > > --

              --
            • hrafnsnest
              Hail Tore! I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes can
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
                Hail Tore!
                I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with
                your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes
                can sometimes get garbled by the medievalist records keeper,
                f.ex., "East Goth and West Goth" became "Goth and Magoth" from the
                biblical "Gog and Magog". That said, if the Romans are calling a
                particular people "the (H)eruli", then who is calling the Svear "the
                Svear"?
                And, in your opinion, how do the 1st person "ek erilaR" runestones,
                which appear during the same time period, fit into the puzzle, after
                all, they don't say "ek Suear"?
                Finally, where is Grobin, Apuole and Elbing?
                Odhvaknir
              • Tore Gannholm
                Hi! Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel The Fates of Human Societies Jared Diamond Sometimes the conqueror adopts the customs, religion and language (or part
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
                  Hi!
                  Have you read
                  Guns, Germs and Steel
                  The Fates of Human Societies
                  Jared Diamond

                  Sometimes the conqueror adopts the customs, religion and language (or
                  part of it) from the conquered people. Sometimes it is the other way
                  round.

                  The name Svear is not used used until later. In Beowulf they are
                  called Scylfinga. The name Svear is not used yet. We are not even
                  sure they called themselves Heruls. It could be the Romans that
                  called them Heruls?!

                  Grobin is close to Libau in Latvija and Apoule is a little further inland.

                  Elibing or Elblag is east of Gdansk in Poland.

                  Tore




                  >Hail Tore!
                  >I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with
                  >your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes
                  >can sometimes get garbled by the medievalist records keeper,
                  >f.ex., "East Goth and West Goth" became "Goth and Magoth" from the
                  >biblical "Gog and Magog". That said, if the Romans are calling a
                  >particular people "the (H)eruli", then who is calling the Svear "the
                  >Svear"?
                  >And, in your opinion, how do the 1st person "ek erilaR" runestones,
                  >which appear during the same time period, fit into the puzzle, after
                  >all, they don't say "ek Suear"?
                  >Finally, where is Grobin, Apuole and Elbing?
                  >Odhvaknir
                  >

                  --

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