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[gothic-l] Re: Goths and Scandinavia

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  • Tore Gannholm
    ... Dirk, What worries me is that you are only referring to German scholars when we are talking about Scandinavian archaeology. As I can t get hold of Pohl s
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 10 10:06 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >I warmly recommend to you the latest book by Walter Pohl (Die
      >Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration), Kohlhammer Verlag 2002.
      >Pohl summarises the status quo of the research on this question and
      >thus illustrated that a consensus of leading experts now rejects the
      >theory of a Scandinavian origin of the Goths.
      >
      > pop up now and then.
      >
      >
      >A good summer to you too
      >
      >Dirk
      >


      Dirk,
      What worries me is that you are only referring to German scholars
      when we are talking about Scandinavian archaeology.
      As I can't get hold of Pohl's book presently perhaps you can tell
      what Pohl writes about Kaliff's "Gothic connections" as this is the
      official standpoint at the University of Uppsala it is interesting to
      know if Pohl has any opinion about the present Swedish standlpoint.

      Tore
      --
    • finnestorp
      The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some polish i belive that
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 10, 2003
        The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
        historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
        polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
        indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
        Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
        Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
        Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
        Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
        show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
        continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
        find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
        in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
        such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
        contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
        eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
        evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
        well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
        Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
        elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
        during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
        These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
        a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
        grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
        Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
        traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
        of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
        the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
        Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
        cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
        focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
        origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
        tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
        archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
        reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
        be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
        in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
        on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
        Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
        groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
        into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
        culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
        in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
        record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
        the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
        background.
      • Tore Gannholm
        Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is available for reading in my
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 10, 2003
          Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems
          to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is
          available for reading in my research library on
          http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm

          Tore


          >The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
          >historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
          >polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
          >indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
          >Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
          >Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
          >Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
          >Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
          >show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
          >continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
          >find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
          >in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
          >such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
          >contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
          >eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
          >evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
          >well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
          >Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
          >elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
          >during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
          >These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
          >a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
          >grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
          >Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
          >traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
          >of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
          >the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
          >Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
          >cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
          >focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
          >origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
          >tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
          >archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
          >reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
          >be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
          >in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
          >on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
          >Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
          >groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
          >into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
          >culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
          >in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
          >record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
          >the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
          >background.
          >

          --
        • faltin2001
          ... These are names - ethnonyms! Only historians and philologists can decide on a connection between ethnic groups, because artefacts don t usually carry
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 11, 2003
            --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "finnestorp" <martin.skoglund@s...>
            wrote:
            > The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
            > historians.



            These are names - ethnonyms! Only historians and philologists can
            decide on a connection between ethnic groups, because artefacts don't
            usually carry names. Archaeologists can tell us which material
            cultures had contacts, moved to which places or took influences from
            which other cultures. But they cannot say that Goths and Goetar and
            Gutar have anything to do with each other.

            Hence, this problem was studied by historians and philologists mostly
            and the latest work in this line is A. S. Christensen's book on
            Jordanes and Cassiodorus, and Christensen showed that Gutar/Goetar
            and Gothi have basically nothing in common, thus confirming the
            archaeological evidence regarding the respective material cultures
            involved.

            Francisc said a few important things in an earlier message. There are
            always those people who want to connect themselves, their country
            their people their history to the glorious past of a seemingly heroic
            people like the Goths. Hence, we had Scandinavians for centuries
            claiming that they are the Goths or that they are decendents of the
            Goths or at least that the Goths are Scandinavians. Some people even
            said that the Goths were the brethren or kinsmen of the
            Scandinavians. And now we have even some Indians making similar
            claims. All of this is wrong and a distortion of history. It
            completely disregards what we know about ethnic dynamics in those
            periods.

            The actual ethnic people of the Gothi was created just north of the
            Black Sea sometime around 200AD. The most eminent scholars like
            Wolfram, Schwarcs, Heather, Pohl, Goffart and others would all agree
            on this. The history of the Goths is a fractured history consisting
            of multipe ethnogeneses. The straight migration lines of old text
            books are a thing of the past. The ethnogenesis at the Black Sea
            involved various groups, of which the Germanic component was clearly
            the most dominante. We can only assume that the Gotones of the first
            century were involved, but we cannot deduct this from the Getica.
            Instead, we must use archaeology and first/second century
            historiography to presume this link.

            This ethnogenesis took place in a geographical region which was bound
            to the Germania proper for centuries, by trade links etc. as A.
            Kaliff and others have shown. Other Germanic groups, like the Sciri
            and Basternae had also moved from the Oder river to the lower Danube
            along the same routes which people had used for centuries as finds
            like the Vedersfelder fish show. Clearly, Scandinavia was certainly a
            part of this trade and exchange nexus. Groups of Scandinavians will
            at practically all times have settled on the continent, and
            archaeological evidence seems to point to a movement of
            Scandinavians, especially from the broad aread Funen to the Black
            Sea, which may be linked to the movement of Heruls from 200AD.

            However, all this is different from claims that the Goths were
            Scandinavians, that the Goths had come from Scandinavia etc. The
            Goths emerged only aroud 200AD in an area far removed from
            Scandinavia. The material culture on which their ethnogenesis was
            based has never been in Scandinavia or derived from Scandinavia (let
            alone India, but his goes without saying). Their Germanic language
            was not closer to North Germanic than to any other Germanic dialect.
            Tracing a Gothic history to the Vistula is already questionable, as
            Christensen has demonstrated, but trying to push their history back
            to the period BC is simply not permissable.


            Cheers,
            Dirk







            Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
            > polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
            > indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
            > Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
            > Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
            > Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
            > Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern
            Sweden
            > show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
            > continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in
            the
            > find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue
            excavations
            > in the past few years have contributed with material for the study
            of
            > such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
            > contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
            > eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
            > evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery
            as
            > well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
            > Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
            > elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
            > during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
            > These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued
            in
            > a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
            > grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
            > Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
            > traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
            > of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern
            research,
            > the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
            > Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from
            earlier
            > cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
            > focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a
            Nordic
            > origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
            > tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
            > archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
            > reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures
            can
            > be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps
            originating
            > in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield
            groups
            > on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
            > Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
            > groups in different geographic areas could eventually have
            developed
            > into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
            > culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in
            similarities
            > in material culture, language and burial customs. The
            archaeological
            > record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin
            of
            > the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
            > background.
          • Tore Gannholm
            Another intersting piece of information is Professor Mårten Stenbergers descritpition of Gotlands trade relations from an archaeological point of view.
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 13, 2003
              Another intersting piece of information is Professor Mårten
              Stenbergers descritpition of Gotlands trade relations from an
              archaeological point of view.

              Unforutnately I can't find that it has been published in either
              English or German.
              http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/romaniron_/forngotland/default.htm


              "Under yngre bronsålder, som inföll ca 1000-500 f. Kr. f.,
              intensifierades den gotländska handeln. Med de av nordisk formgivning
              kännetecknade föremålen förenar sig ett stort antal främmande
              produkter, som peka åt samma håll som många av importartiklarna från
              äldre bronsålder, men en del ge perspektiv av långt större räckvidd.
              Handeln hade blivit vad vi på modernt språk skulle kallat
              internationell. Inte så, att de gotländska köpmännen alltid
              personligen uppsökt de områden, där dessa olika föremål blivit
              framställda, men genom egen och andras verksamhet och initiativ hade
              de blivit medlemmar av den merkantila gemenskapen i ett affärsivrigt,
              av handelsforor och farkoster livligt genomkorsat Europa. Det var
              alltså ej endast med grannländerna i väster, söder och öster och de
              närmast utanför dessa belägna affärskretsarna, man på Gotland var mer
              eller mindre förbunden, utan ön nåddes av varor, som tillverkats i
              avlägset liggande länder, i väst- och centraleuropa, ja till och med
              i Kaukasusområdet. Föremålen från det senare området torde angiva en
              handelsled tvärs genom det nuvarande Ryssland. Särskilt livliga voro
              emellertid förbindelserna med nordtyskland, östra Skandinavien och
              Baltikum, medan av allt att döma det dansk-skånska området av någon
              anledning nu kommit mera i skymundan.

              Den gotländska kulturen var emellertid inte endast mottagande utan
              även expansiv. Väster om Rigaviken, i Kurland, finns en flock
              skeppsformiga stensättningar, lika dem på Gotland och hänförande sig
              till samma tid som dessa, vilka ej kunna uppfattas på annat sätt än
              som byggda av människor, vilka utflyttat från Gotland till andra
              sidan Östersjön."

              "During younger bronze age that occurred ca 1000-500 B.C. the
              Gotlandic trade was intensified. Together with those of Nordic design
              recognized artefacts we can also see a large amount of imported
              products. These point at the same direction as the import goods from
              the older bronze age. However some give the perspective of coming
              from much further away. Trade had become,as we today call
              international. That does not mean that the Gotlandic business men
              always personally visited the areas where these artefacts were
              produced. Through their own and others efforts and initiative had
              they become members of the mercantile community which in various ways
              criss-crossed Europe. It was not only with the neighbors in West
              East and South and those countries next to them the people on Gotland
              had contact. Goods from far away like West- and Central Europa as
              well as Kaukasus reached Gotland. Goods from the latter area indicate
              a trade route through present day Russia. Especially lively were the
              connections with North Germany, Eastern Scandinavia and Balticum. On
              the other hand the Danish-Skåne area lost in importance.

              The Gotlandic culture was however not only receiving but even
              expansive. West of the Golf of Riga in Kurland there are a couple of
              graves in ships form, similar to those in Gotland and date to the
              same period. These can only be interpreted as built by people that
              have emigrated from Gotland to the other side of the Baltic."

              "Tiden ca 150-Kr. f. har kännetecknats av stort materiellt uppsving
              på Gotland liksom på Öland och i de östra delarna av det
              fastlandssvenska området samt mellansverige. Stora gravfält, som
              varit gemensamma för några gårdar eller en begränsad bygd, börja visa
              sig. Den tidigare fattigdomen avlöses av rikedom på fynd, så talrika
              till och med, att Gotland är rikare representerat från denna tid än
              varje annan del av vårt land. "

              "The time about 150 B.C. marks a great material lift in Gotland as
              well as in Öland and in the eastern parts of the Swedish mainland.
              Large grave fields that were common for some farms or a limited area
              start to show. The earlier time of poverty is changed into large
              richness of finds, so numerous that Gotland has more finds than any
              other part of Sweden."

              "Den utrustning, som den gotländske krigaren har under keltisk tid,
              var i stort sett densamma som de östgermanska stammarnas på
              kontinenten och med keltiskt vapenskick hade den föga gemensamt. I
              vapenformerna på östgermansk botten spåras inflytanden under ett
              tidigare skede från den för länge sedan försvunna Hallstattkulturen. "

              "The equipment that the Gotlandic warrior uses during celtic time is
              more or less the same as the East germanic tribes on the continent.
              With celtic armour it had nothing to do. In the forms of weapons in
              the East germanic areas one can trace the influence from an earlier
              era long ago, the Hallstatt culture that disappeared"

              Tore





              Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems
              to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is
              available for reading in my research library on
              http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm

              Tore


              >The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
              >historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
              >polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
              >indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
              >Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
              >Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
              >Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
              >Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
              >show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
              >continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
              >find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
              >in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
              >such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
              >contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
              >eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
              >evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
              >well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
              >Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
              >elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
              >during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
              >These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
              >a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
              >grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
              >Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
              >traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
              >of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
              >the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
              >Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
              >cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
              >focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
              >origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
              >tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
              >archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
              >reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
              >be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
              >in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
              >on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
              >Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
              >groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
              >into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
              >culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
              >in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
              >record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
              >the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
              >background.
              >

              --

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