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[gothic-l] Re: Goths, Gauti, Goetaland, Gotland

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  • Tore Gannholm
    ... Einar, You are right in one way. However we are talking about different millennia. In the late Vendel period early Viking age it is very different. I still
    Message 1 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
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      >--- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
      >> _The Role of Migration in the History of the
      > > Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
      >> 'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
      >> London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
      >> ______________________________________
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> As others before him Bell-Fialkoff also point to
      >> the fact that Sweden historically "looked" east and
      >> south, not west (which was the way Norwegians
      >> "looked", for instance). The other side of the Baltic
      >> was the traditional area of interest. The natural
      >> thing, which i so obvious that it is not mentioned
      >> by the editor, is that if you want to go southeast
      >> from Goetaland you end up in the Vistula delta
      >> and the surrounding area. The ethnogenesis occured
      >> eccording to Wolfram between the rivers Oder
      >> and Vistula.
      >>
      >> Gothically
      >>
      >> Bertil
      >
      >Hæ Bertil.
      >
      >Thanks for your info.
      >I dont know what to belief about the origin of the Goths.
      >I think we have a very complex problem here.
      >I think that many Continental scholars are against the idea of a
      >Scandinavain origin. Partly because they are not so much of a experts
      >of Scandinavian history as they are of the Continental one.
      >There can be other reasons too.
      >Icelandic archaeologists claim that there are no remains to be found
      >showing the activity of Celtic people in Iceland.
      >Genetic scientists have another story to tell.
      >So lets be cautious beliefing any firm statements from anyone
      >whatever expert he is considered to be.
      >
      >The above you say about the Swedish "looked" to the east and south
      >must be a outdated view. Traditionally there have been migrations
      >from Sweden to present day south/south west and eastern part of
      >present day Norway.
      >And to the coastal areas around Trondheim.
      >And all these areas are to the west.
      >And Viking activity of the Swedish in the West is much more than
      >generally believed.
      >To solve this question we have to define what people lived in south
      >and south west Norway.
      >And the ruling families settling Iceland were definetely not
      >Norwegians.
      >
      >According to Ottar the merchant then Norwegians must have been the
      >people living in coastal areas of present day west Norway.
      >That later changed when they managed to gain influence and rule the
      >eastern territories as well. But all that happened after 900 A.D.
      >
      >Cheers Einar
      >

      Einar,
      You are right in one way. However we are talking about different
      millennia. In the late Vendel period early Viking age it is very
      different. I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is the
      immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
      the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
      states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
      British isles-Island.

      Bertil is talking about the Bronze age and the Roman Iron age.

      If you have read Anders Kaliffs book "Gothis Connections" you can see
      that there was a common culture in present day Poland, Gotland and
      some coastal areas of eastern Sweden.
      This is how it looked like when the Wielbark culture was formed. The
      claim by many is that the Wielbark culture was an indigenous formed
      culture will therefore include Gotland and some coastal areas of
      eastern Sweden.

      There was probably much movement within this cultural area. It looks
      very much like the Gotlandic merchants were very influential and
      probably dominated the amber trade. We have archaeological proof for
      Gotlandic trading colonies from the Bronze age and forward in this
      cultural area. Why some continental scholars are so much against
      Gotlandic involvement I don't know.

      Just look at what we dig out from the earth every year.
      Just now they are showing parts of the "Spilling viking treasure" at
      the Historical museum in Stockholm, the largest viking silver
      treasure found in the world.

      Tore
      --
    • einarbirg
      ... the ... #### I agree with your main points.But the situation was more complex. ... see ... The ... #####Nothing comes from nothing. I dont belief that the
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 11, 2002
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        --- In gothic-l@y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...> wrote:
        > >--- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
        > >> _The Role of Migration in the History of the
        > > > Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
        > >> 'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
        > >> London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
        > >> ______________________________________
        > >>
        > >>
        ####### Hæ Tore.
        >
        > Einar,
        > You are right in one way. However we are talking about different
        > millennia. In the late Vendel period early Viking age it is very
        > different. I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
        the
        > immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
        > the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
        > states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
        > British isles-Island.

        #### I agree with your main points.But the situation was more complex.
        #####
        >
        > Bertil is talking about the Bronze age and the Roman Iron age.
        >
        > If you have read Anders Kaliffs book "Gothis Connections" you can
        see
        > that there was a common culture in present day Poland, Gotland and
        > some coastal areas of eastern Sweden.
        > This is how it looked like when the Wielbark culture was formed.
        The
        > claim by many is that the Wielbark culture was an indigenous formed
        > culture will therefore include Gotland and some coastal areas of
        > eastern Sweden.

        #####Nothing comes from nothing. I dont belief that the Wielbark
        culture was formed and sustained like out of the blue air without
        cultural influences from other areas.So i agree,mainly####
        >
        > There was probably much movement within this cultural area. It
        looks
        > very much like the Gotlandic merchants were very influential and
        > probably dominated the amber trade. We have archaeological proof
        for
        > Gotlandic trading colonies from the Bronze age and forward in this
        > cultural area. Why some continental scholars are so much against
        > Gotlandic involvement I don't know.

        #### I dont know either. Very probably the role of Gotland has been
        underestimated. Same could be the case with other islands in the
        Baltic. Though Gotland is biggest and in the middle so to say###
        >
        > Just look at what we dig out from the earth every year.
        > Just now they are showing parts of the "Spilling viking treasure"
        at
        > the Historical museum in Stockholm, the largest viking silver
        > treasure found in the world.
        >
        ####Yes,the role of Gotland has probably been underestimated###

        Cheers Einar
        > Tore
        > --
      • hrafnsnest
        Tore wrote: I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is the ... Hail Tore! I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 22, 2002
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          Tore wrote: "I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
          the
          > immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
          > the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
          > states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
          > British isles-Island."

          Hail Tore!
          I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
          settlement into the areas that you mention, especially Iceland.
          Rather than read through the many postings regarding this issue, I
          shall ask the following, what are your principal sources, from what
          geographical point(s) do you see them eminating from? And what
          information is there to point to the (H)eruls movement to Iceland?

          Odhvaknir
        • Tore Gannholm
          ... Hi! I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is something that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his sources. I have
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 22, 2002
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            >Tore wrote: "I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
            >the
            >> immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
            >> the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
            >> states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
            >> British isles-Island."
            >
            >Hail Tore!
            > I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
            >settlement into the areas that you mention, especially Iceland.
            >Rather than read through the many postings regarding this issue, I
            >shall ask the following, what are your principal sources, from what
            >geographical point(s) do you see them eminating from? And what
            >information is there to point to the (H)eruls movement to Iceland?
            >
            >Odhvaknir
            >

            Hi!

            I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is something
            that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
            sources.

            I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class to
            the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
            rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
            established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations in
            Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
            In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian rivers
            and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.

            Tore
            --
          • hrafnsnest
            Hail Tore! My apologies. I mistook ..British isles - Island. , for Iceland. What type of things are they finding at these sites that would indicate they were
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
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              Hail Tore!
              My apologies. I mistook "..British isles - Island.", for Iceland.
              What type of things are they finding at these sites that would
              indicate they were (H)eruli?
              Odhvaknir

              > I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is
              something
              > that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
              > sources.
              >
              > I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class
              to
              > the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
              > rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
              > established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations
              in
              > Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
              > In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian
              rivers
              > and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.
              >
              > Tore
              > --
            • Tore Gannholm
              Hi! Have you read my conclusions on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/parla_/svear/default.htm Tore ... --
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
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                Hi!
                Have you read my conclusions on
                http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/parla_/svear/default.htm

                Tore

                >Hail Tore!
                >My apologies. I mistook "..British isles - Island.", for Iceland.
                >What type of things are they finding at these sites that would
                >indicate they were (H)eruli?
                >Odhvaknir
                >
                >> I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is
                >something
                >> that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
                >> sources.
                >>
                >> I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class
                >to
                >> the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
                >> rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
                >> established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations
                >in
                >> Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
                >> In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian
                >rivers
                >> and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.
                >>
                >> Tore
                > > --

                --
              • hrafnsnest
                Hail Tore! I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes can
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
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                  Hail Tore!
                  I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with
                  your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes
                  can sometimes get garbled by the medievalist records keeper,
                  f.ex., "East Goth and West Goth" became "Goth and Magoth" from the
                  biblical "Gog and Magog". That said, if the Romans are calling a
                  particular people "the (H)eruli", then who is calling the Svear "the
                  Svear"?
                  And, in your opinion, how do the 1st person "ek erilaR" runestones,
                  which appear during the same time period, fit into the puzzle, after
                  all, they don't say "ek Suear"?
                  Finally, where is Grobin, Apuole and Elbing?
                  Odhvaknir
                • Tore Gannholm
                  Hi! Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel The Fates of Human Societies Jared Diamond Sometimes the conqueror adopts the customs, religion and language (or part
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
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                    Hi!
                    Have you read
                    Guns, Germs and Steel
                    The Fates of Human Societies
                    Jared Diamond

                    Sometimes the conqueror adopts the customs, religion and language (or
                    part of it) from the conquered people. Sometimes it is the other way
                    round.

                    The name Svear is not used used until later. In Beowulf they are
                    called Scylfinga. The name Svear is not used yet. We are not even
                    sure they called themselves Heruls. It could be the Romans that
                    called them Heruls?!

                    Grobin is close to Libau in Latvija and Apoule is a little further inland.

                    Elibing or Elblag is east of Gdansk in Poland.

                    Tore




                    >Hail Tore!
                    >I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with
                    >your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes
                    >can sometimes get garbled by the medievalist records keeper,
                    >f.ex., "East Goth and West Goth" became "Goth and Magoth" from the
                    >biblical "Gog and Magog". That said, if the Romans are calling a
                    >particular people "the (H)eruli", then who is calling the Svear "the
                    >Svear"?
                    >And, in your opinion, how do the 1st person "ek erilaR" runestones,
                    >which appear during the same time period, fit into the puzzle, after
                    >all, they don't say "ek Suear"?
                    >Finally, where is Grobin, Apuole and Elbing?
                    >Odhvaknir
                    >

                    --

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