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Goths and Scandinavia

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  • Ingemar Nordgren
    There has been some negative comments concerning connections Goths and Scandinavia as answers to Al. In some cases Al evidently has misunderstood the Goths
    Message 1 of 8 , May 30, 2002
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      There has been some negative comments concerning connections Goths and
      Scandinavia as answers to Al. In some cases Al evidently has
      misunderstood the Goths activities, indeed, but there still remains a
      lot of Scandinavian traces. You simply can not regard the Scandinavian
      hypothesis as obsolete even if some new Anglo Saxon and German books
      claim that. Bertil has pointed out other alternatives ( I am not
      referring to Musset) and I could add my own doctoral thesis from 1999,
      as revised book 2000, "The Well Spring of the Goths", still only in
      Swedish,sorry to say, and also the Swedish archaeologist docent Anders
      Kaliff with his Gothic Connections. Professor Erik Nylén of Gotland has
      also written a lot about Scandinavian/Gotlandic Goths and even Hachmann
      has agreed the Nordic peoples are Goths - not only the Vistula Goths.
      Yurij Knysch also had some good arguments for a Nordic connection.
      Herwig Wolfram also sees the connection. Another question is, of course,
      if the Goths are a single folk or a number of different peoples as I
      claim. I could not resist jumping into the debate but I have no time to
      continue now because I am still working on a paper and being busy
      arranging the preparations for parttaking in an international conference
      about Icelandic Sagas. I wish everybody a good summer already now
      because I will just pop up now and then. I just file the digests for
      later treatment.

      Best regards
      Ingemar
    • Sahin Ahmet
      My opinion is that since germanic branching is so young and seems to be starting from some time on, a geographically isolated region like north scandinavian
      Message 2 of 8 , May 31, 2002
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        My opinion is that since germanic branching is so young and seems to be starting from some time on, a geographically isolated region like north scandinavian shore would be a possible origin of the goths. just a theory! Poland as a plain land in my opinion can not be an original place preserving cultural unity.
        Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren@...> wrote:
        There has been some negative comments concerning connections Goths and
        Scandinavia as answers to Al. In some cases Al evidently has
        misunderstood the Goths activities, indeed, but there still remains a
        lot of Scandinavian traces. You simply can not regard the Scandinavian
        hypothesis as obsolete even if some new Anglo Saxon and German books
        claim that. Bertil has pointed out other alternatives ( I am not
        referring to Musset) and I could add my own doctoral thesis from 1999,
        as revised book 2000, "The Well Spring of the Goths", still only in
        Swedish,sorry to say, and also the Swedish archaeologist docent Anders
        Kaliff with his Gothic Connections. Professor Erik Nyl�n of Gotland has
        also written a lot about Scandinavian/Gotlandic Goths and even Hachmann
        has agreed the Nordic peoples are Goths - not only the Vistula Goths.
        Yurij Knysch also had some good arguments for a Nordic connection.
        Herwig Wolfram also sees the connection. Another question is, of course,
        if the Goths are a single folk or a number of different peoples as I
        claim. I could not resist jumping into the debate but I have no time to
        continue now because I am still working on a paper and being busy
        arranging the preparations for parttaking in an international conference
        about Icelandic Sagas. I wish everybody a good summer already now
        because I will just pop up now and then. I just file the digests for
        later treatment.

        Best regards
        Ingemar




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      • faltin2001
        Hi Ingemar, I read the recent posts with some concern about the standard to which this list is sinking (not yours, but I address this to you since I know you
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 10, 2002
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          Hi Ingemar,

          I read the recent posts with some concern about the standard to which
          this list is sinking (not yours, but I address this to you since I
          know you as a resonable person). There are people actually implying
          that continental scholars have 'hidden agendas' or are not expert
          enough on Scandinavia to be able to assess the problem of the origin
          of the Goths.

          Nobody in his right mind, can deny that people like V. Bierbrauer,
          Wolgakiewycs, K. Godlowski, A. Schwarcz, W. Pohl, H. Wolfram, P.
          Heather and others are (or in some cases were) 'the' leading experts
          on the Goths. Their research encompassed all available sources,
          primary and secondary. To suggest that there are Scandinavian
          sources and 'secret' evidence to which only Scandinavian scholars
          have access is complete and utter non-sense (as you no doubt know).
          The above scholars have (to varyings degrees) shown (with ample
          evidence) that an Scandinavian origin of the Goths is not likely. In
          purely scholarly terms, the burden of proof for a Scandinavian origin
          of the Goths has now shifted to those who still uphold those claims.

          I warmly recommend to you the latest book by Walter Pohl (Die
          Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration), Kohlhammer Verlag 2002.
          Pohl summarises the status quo of the research on this question and
          thus illustrated that a consensus of leading experts now rejects the
          theory of a Scandinavian origin of the Goths.



          Below are some comments to your text:



          --- In gothic-l@y..., Ingemar Nordgren <ingemar.nordgren@e...> wrote:
          >
          > There has been some negative comments concerning connections Goths
          and
          > Scandinavia as answers to Al. In some cases Al evidently has
          > misunderstood the Goths activities, indeed, but there still remains
          a
          > lot of Scandinavian traces. You simply can not regard the
          Scandinavian
          > hypothesis as obsolete even if some new Anglo Saxon and German
          books
          > claim that.




          Then you will have to provide the evidence for that and show that the
          volumes of evidence against a Scandinavian origin of the Goths are
          wrong.




          Bertil has pointed out other alternatives ( I am not
          > referring to Musset) and I could add my own doctoral thesis from
          1999,
          > as revised book 2000, "The Well Spring of the Goths", still only in
          > Swedish,sorry to say, and also the Swedish archaeologist docent
          Anders
          > Kaliff with his Gothic Connections. Professor Erik Nylén of Gotland
          has
          > also written a lot about Scandinavian/Gotlandic Goths and even
          Hachmann
          > has agreed the Nordic peoples are Goths - not only the Vistula
          Goths.



          Hachmann wrote in the 1960s and could hardly belief his findings,
          when the evidence pointed away from a Scandinavian origin of the
          Goths. He therefore used a very careful language.

          Nowadays' we know that there was not one Gothic tribe, which moved
          through history in a single line, but many different Gothic
          ethnogeneses. The Goths of the south Russian steppe will likely have
          been a very different people from those at the Baltic coast. The
          various Balkan and Danubian Gothic groups were again very different
          groups, often comprising people who where not even of Germanic
          origin. By far not all Goths followed Theoderich to Italy, instead
          he was accompanied by Alans, Rugians, Taifalians and probably many
          others who participated in yet another Gothic ethnogenesis.










          > Yurij Knysch also had some good arguments for a Nordic connection.
          > Herwig Wolfram also sees the connection.


          But Wolfram regards this only as a tradition, not an actual migration
          of a people or tribe.





          Another question is, of course,
          > if the Goths are a single folk or a number of different peoples as
          I
          > claim.


          Here we agree. If you read recent archaeological interpretations it
          becomes clear that a tribal identity meant much less than a social
          identity. The things that seem to define a 5th century Goths are in
          reality blurred. For example, many Romans were also Arians, even the
          head of the Arian church was a Roman and Theodric's mother was a
          Catholic. Being a Goth meant bearing weapons, and many whom we would
          identify now as Goth were perhaps Roman provincials or Alanic
          tribesmen.




          I could not resist jumping into the debate but I have no time to
          > continue now because I am still working on a paper and being
          busy
          > arranging the preparations for parttaking in an international
          conference
          > about Icelandic Sagas. I wish everybody a good summer already now
          > because I will just pop up now and then.


          A good summer to you too

          Dirk
        • Tore Gannholm
          ... Dirk, What worries me is that you are only referring to German scholars when we are talking about Scandinavian archaeology. As I can t get hold of Pohl s
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 10, 2002
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            >
            >
            >
            >I warmly recommend to you the latest book by Walter Pohl (Die
            >Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration), Kohlhammer Verlag 2002.
            >Pohl summarises the status quo of the research on this question and
            >thus illustrated that a consensus of leading experts now rejects the
            >theory of a Scandinavian origin of the Goths.
            >
            > pop up now and then.
            >
            >
            >A good summer to you too
            >
            >Dirk
            >


            Dirk,
            What worries me is that you are only referring to German scholars
            when we are talking about Scandinavian archaeology.
            As I can't get hold of Pohl's book presently perhaps you can tell
            what Pohl writes about Kaliff's "Gothic connections" as this is the
            official standpoint at the University of Uppsala it is interesting to
            know if Pohl has any opinion about the present Swedish standlpoint.

            Tore
            --
          • finnestorp
            The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some polish i belive that
            Message 5 of 8 , Jul 10, 2003
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              The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
              historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
              polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
              indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
              Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
              Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
              Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
              Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
              show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
              continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
              find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
              in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
              such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
              contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
              eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
              evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
              well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
              Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
              elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
              during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
              These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
              a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
              grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
              Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
              traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
              of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
              the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
              Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
              cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
              focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
              origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
              tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
              archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
              reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
              be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
              in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
              on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
              Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
              groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
              into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
              culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
              in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
              record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
              the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
              background.
            • Tore Gannholm
              Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is available for reading in my
              Message 6 of 8 , Jul 10, 2003
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                Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems
                to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is
                available for reading in my research library on
                http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm

                Tore


                >The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
                >historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
                >polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
                >indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
                >Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
                >Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
                >Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
                >Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
                >show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
                >continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
                >find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
                >in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
                >such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
                >contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
                >eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
                >evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
                >well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
                >Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
                >elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
                >during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
                >These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
                >a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
                >grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
                >Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
                >traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
                >of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
                >the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
                >Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
                >cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
                >focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
                >origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
                >tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
                >archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
                >reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
                >be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
                >in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
                >on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
                >Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
                >groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
                >into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
                >culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
                >in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
                >record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
                >the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
                >background.
                >

                --
              • faltin2001
                ... These are names - ethnonyms! Only historians and philologists can decide on a connection between ethnic groups, because artefacts don t usually carry
                Message 7 of 8 , Jul 11, 2003
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                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "finnestorp" <martin.skoglund@s...>
                  wrote:
                  > The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
                  > historians.



                  These are names - ethnonyms! Only historians and philologists can
                  decide on a connection between ethnic groups, because artefacts don't
                  usually carry names. Archaeologists can tell us which material
                  cultures had contacts, moved to which places or took influences from
                  which other cultures. But they cannot say that Goths and Goetar and
                  Gutar have anything to do with each other.

                  Hence, this problem was studied by historians and philologists mostly
                  and the latest work in this line is A. S. Christensen's book on
                  Jordanes and Cassiodorus, and Christensen showed that Gutar/Goetar
                  and Gothi have basically nothing in common, thus confirming the
                  archaeological evidence regarding the respective material cultures
                  involved.

                  Francisc said a few important things in an earlier message. There are
                  always those people who want to connect themselves, their country
                  their people their history to the glorious past of a seemingly heroic
                  people like the Goths. Hence, we had Scandinavians for centuries
                  claiming that they are the Goths or that they are decendents of the
                  Goths or at least that the Goths are Scandinavians. Some people even
                  said that the Goths were the brethren or kinsmen of the
                  Scandinavians. And now we have even some Indians making similar
                  claims. All of this is wrong and a distortion of history. It
                  completely disregards what we know about ethnic dynamics in those
                  periods.

                  The actual ethnic people of the Gothi was created just north of the
                  Black Sea sometime around 200AD. The most eminent scholars like
                  Wolfram, Schwarcs, Heather, Pohl, Goffart and others would all agree
                  on this. The history of the Goths is a fractured history consisting
                  of multipe ethnogeneses. The straight migration lines of old text
                  books are a thing of the past. The ethnogenesis at the Black Sea
                  involved various groups, of which the Germanic component was clearly
                  the most dominante. We can only assume that the Gotones of the first
                  century were involved, but we cannot deduct this from the Getica.
                  Instead, we must use archaeology and first/second century
                  historiography to presume this link.

                  This ethnogenesis took place in a geographical region which was bound
                  to the Germania proper for centuries, by trade links etc. as A.
                  Kaliff and others have shown. Other Germanic groups, like the Sciri
                  and Basternae had also moved from the Oder river to the lower Danube
                  along the same routes which people had used for centuries as finds
                  like the Vedersfelder fish show. Clearly, Scandinavia was certainly a
                  part of this trade and exchange nexus. Groups of Scandinavians will
                  at practically all times have settled on the continent, and
                  archaeological evidence seems to point to a movement of
                  Scandinavians, especially from the broad aread Funen to the Black
                  Sea, which may be linked to the movement of Heruls from 200AD.

                  However, all this is different from claims that the Goths were
                  Scandinavians, that the Goths had come from Scandinavia etc. The
                  Goths emerged only aroud 200AD in an area far removed from
                  Scandinavia. The material culture on which their ethnogenesis was
                  based has never been in Scandinavia or derived from Scandinavia (let
                  alone India, but his goes without saying). Their Germanic language
                  was not closer to North Germanic than to any other Germanic dialect.
                  Tracing a Gothic history to the Vistula is already questionable, as
                  Christensen has demonstrated, but trying to push their history back
                  to the period BC is simply not permissable.


                  Cheers,
                  Dirk







                  Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
                  > polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
                  > indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
                  > Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
                  > Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
                  > Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
                  > Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern
                  Sweden
                  > show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
                  > continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in
                  the
                  > find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue
                  excavations
                  > in the past few years have contributed with material for the study
                  of
                  > such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
                  > contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
                  > eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
                  > evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery
                  as
                  > well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
                  > Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
                  > elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
                  > during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
                  > These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued
                  in
                  > a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
                  > grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
                  > Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
                  > traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
                  > of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern
                  research,
                  > the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
                  > Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from
                  earlier
                  > cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
                  > focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a
                  Nordic
                  > origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
                  > tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
                  > archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
                  > reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures
                  can
                  > be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps
                  originating
                  > in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield
                  groups
                  > on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
                  > Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
                  > groups in different geographic areas could eventually have
                  developed
                  > into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
                  > culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in
                  similarities
                  > in material culture, language and burial customs. The
                  archaeological
                  > record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin
                  of
                  > the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
                  > background.
                • Tore Gannholm
                  Another intersting piece of information is Professor Mårten Stenbergers descritpition of Gotlands trade relations from an archaeological point of view.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Jul 13, 2003
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                    Another intersting piece of information is Professor Mårten
                    Stenbergers descritpition of Gotlands trade relations from an
                    archaeological point of view.

                    Unforutnately I can't find that it has been published in either
                    English or German.
                    http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/romaniron_/forngotland/default.htm


                    "Under yngre bronsålder, som inföll ca 1000-500 f. Kr. f.,
                    intensifierades den gotländska handeln. Med de av nordisk formgivning
                    kännetecknade föremålen förenar sig ett stort antal främmande
                    produkter, som peka åt samma håll som många av importartiklarna från
                    äldre bronsålder, men en del ge perspektiv av långt större räckvidd.
                    Handeln hade blivit vad vi på modernt språk skulle kallat
                    internationell. Inte så, att de gotländska köpmännen alltid
                    personligen uppsökt de områden, där dessa olika föremål blivit
                    framställda, men genom egen och andras verksamhet och initiativ hade
                    de blivit medlemmar av den merkantila gemenskapen i ett affärsivrigt,
                    av handelsforor och farkoster livligt genomkorsat Europa. Det var
                    alltså ej endast med grannländerna i väster, söder och öster och de
                    närmast utanför dessa belägna affärskretsarna, man på Gotland var mer
                    eller mindre förbunden, utan ön nåddes av varor, som tillverkats i
                    avlägset liggande länder, i väst- och centraleuropa, ja till och med
                    i Kaukasusområdet. Föremålen från det senare området torde angiva en
                    handelsled tvärs genom det nuvarande Ryssland. Särskilt livliga voro
                    emellertid förbindelserna med nordtyskland, östra Skandinavien och
                    Baltikum, medan av allt att döma det dansk-skånska området av någon
                    anledning nu kommit mera i skymundan.

                    Den gotländska kulturen var emellertid inte endast mottagande utan
                    även expansiv. Väster om Rigaviken, i Kurland, finns en flock
                    skeppsformiga stensättningar, lika dem på Gotland och hänförande sig
                    till samma tid som dessa, vilka ej kunna uppfattas på annat sätt än
                    som byggda av människor, vilka utflyttat från Gotland till andra
                    sidan Östersjön."

                    "During younger bronze age that occurred ca 1000-500 B.C. the
                    Gotlandic trade was intensified. Together with those of Nordic design
                    recognized artefacts we can also see a large amount of imported
                    products. These point at the same direction as the import goods from
                    the older bronze age. However some give the perspective of coming
                    from much further away. Trade had become,as we today call
                    international. That does not mean that the Gotlandic business men
                    always personally visited the areas where these artefacts were
                    produced. Through their own and others efforts and initiative had
                    they become members of the mercantile community which in various ways
                    criss-crossed Europe. It was not only with the neighbors in West
                    East and South and those countries next to them the people on Gotland
                    had contact. Goods from far away like West- and Central Europa as
                    well as Kaukasus reached Gotland. Goods from the latter area indicate
                    a trade route through present day Russia. Especially lively were the
                    connections with North Germany, Eastern Scandinavia and Balticum. On
                    the other hand the Danish-Skåne area lost in importance.

                    The Gotlandic culture was however not only receiving but even
                    expansive. West of the Golf of Riga in Kurland there are a couple of
                    graves in ships form, similar to those in Gotland and date to the
                    same period. These can only be interpreted as built by people that
                    have emigrated from Gotland to the other side of the Baltic."

                    "Tiden ca 150-Kr. f. har kännetecknats av stort materiellt uppsving
                    på Gotland liksom på Öland och i de östra delarna av det
                    fastlandssvenska området samt mellansverige. Stora gravfält, som
                    varit gemensamma för några gårdar eller en begränsad bygd, börja visa
                    sig. Den tidigare fattigdomen avlöses av rikedom på fynd, så talrika
                    till och med, att Gotland är rikare representerat från denna tid än
                    varje annan del av vårt land. "

                    "The time about 150 B.C. marks a great material lift in Gotland as
                    well as in Öland and in the eastern parts of the Swedish mainland.
                    Large grave fields that were common for some farms or a limited area
                    start to show. The earlier time of poverty is changed into large
                    richness of finds, so numerous that Gotland has more finds than any
                    other part of Sweden."

                    "Den utrustning, som den gotländske krigaren har under keltisk tid,
                    var i stort sett densamma som de östgermanska stammarnas på
                    kontinenten och med keltiskt vapenskick hade den föga gemensamt. I
                    vapenformerna på östgermansk botten spåras inflytanden under ett
                    tidigare skede från den för länge sedan försvunna Hallstattkulturen. "

                    "The equipment that the Gotlandic warrior uses during celtic time is
                    more or less the same as the East germanic tribes on the continent.
                    With celtic armour it had nothing to do. In the forms of weapons in
                    the East germanic areas one can trace the influence from an earlier
                    era long ago, the Hallstatt culture that disappeared"

                    Tore





                    Thanks for your comment. We have discussed this earlier but it seems
                    to be forgotten after a while. Just to remind you the book is
                    available for reading in my research library on
                    http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/gothicconnectio_/gothic/default.htm

                    Tore


                    >The connection between Goths, Götar and Gutar can not be decided by
                    >historians. Having spoken to leading Swedish archeologists and some
                    >polish i belive that this short summary from Kaliff gives you an
                    >indication on where science stand in this issue today. Kaliff,
                    >Anders. 2001. Gothic Connections. Contacts between eastern
                    >Scandinavia and the southern Baltic coast 1000 BC – 500 AD.
                    >Occational Papers in Archaeology 26. Uppsala.
                    >Different finds from archaeological investigations in eastern Sweden
                    >show evidence of close contacts with the Baltic coastal area on the
                    >continent, and further towards the south-east. This is visible in the
                    >find material from the Bronze Age onwards. Swedish rescue excavations
                    >in the past few years have contributed with material for the study of
                    >such contacts. From the Bronze Age onwards, there are signs of
                    >contacts between eastern Sweden and areas in modern Poland and
                    >eastern Germany and also with areas in the Baltic states. This is
                    >evident in material from several sites in eastern Sweden. Pottery as
                    >well as special house types and graves show contacts with the
                    >Lusatian culture, but also with more distant areas. These cultural
                    >elements fit well into a pattern of long-distance cultural contacts
                    >during the Bronze Age, probably maintained by an élite in society.
                    >These contact routes across the Baltic sea seem to have continued in
                    >a similar way during the Early Iron Age. During this period, some
                    >grave structures and objects demonstrate cultural contacts between
                    >Scandinavia and the Wielbark culture in Poland. Such finds have
                    >traditionally been connected with Jordanes´ Getica, and its account
                    >of a migration of Gothic people from Scandinavia. In modern research,
                    >the theory of a massive migration has generally been abandoned. The
                    >Wielbark culture is generally believed to have developed from earlier
                    >cultures in the same area. Research of recent years have more often
                    >focused on questions regarding a Gothic identification with a Nordic
                    >origin, as possibly invented during the 4th century or as a genuine
                    >tradition in the form of a myth. However, this does not explain
                    >archaeological evidence for contacts during earlier periods. A
                    >reasonable explanation for similarities in the material cultures can
                    >be that they are products of long-term contacts, perhaps originating
                    >in connections between the Lusatian culture and other urnfield groups
                    >on the continent and eastern Scandinavia already during the Late
                    >Bronze Age – Early Iron Age. Regular contacts between high ranking
                    >groups in different geographic areas could eventually have developed
                    >into a close relationship between certain groups of the Wielbark
                    >culture and groups of people in Scandinavia, visible in similarities
                    >in material culture, language and burial customs. The archaeological
                    >record could indicate that Jordanes´ history concerning the origin of
                    >the Goths was based on an oral tradition with some sort of real
                    >background.
                    >

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