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Goths, Gauti, Goetaland, Gotland

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  • Bertil Haggman
    _The Role of Migration in the History of the Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. - Barbarian and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff), London:
    Message 1 of 10 , May 28, 2002
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      _The Role of Migration in the History of the
      Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
      'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
      London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
      ______________________________________

      There have been many variations to explain
      the reason for the Gothic exodus. No doubt
      there was no pressure from non-Germanic
      groups.

      An outright famine due to deteriorating climatic
      conditions is presented in this work as the
      most likely reason, and I must say I concur.
      Heather writes that in his view there was a
      limited migration of a few aristocratic clans.
      They might in turn have organized the
      local poulation ind given their name to it.
      But the disappearance of incineration burials,
      so Bell-Fialkoff, makes it more probable that
      all population strata were effected in Goetaland.
      The local provenance of the Wielbark culture
      may be caused by rapid assimilation of
      the Goths (compare Normandy and Rus
      in the case of the vikings).

      Why did the Goths migrate to the southern coast
      of the Baltic? One possible reason presented
      by Bell-Fialkoff is that the migrators followed
      the traditional Amber Wy, the old trade route
      linking southern Scandinavia with the eastern
      Mediterranean as early as 1800 BC (see Demougeot,
      p. 20, referred to earlier).

      As others before him Bell-Fialkoff also point to
      the fact that Sweden historically "looked" east and
      south, not west (which was the way Norwegians
      "looked", for instance). The other side of the Baltic
      was the traditional area of interest. The natural
      thing, which i so obvious that it is not mentioned
      by the editor, is that if you want to go southeast
      from Goetaland you end up in the Vistula delta
      and the surrounding area. The ethnogenesis occured
      eccording to Wolfram between the rivers Oder
      and Vistula.

      Gothically

      Bertil




      > A good recent book on the subject is:
      >
      > The visigoths from the migration period to the seventh century. an
      > ethnographic perspective. edited by Peter Heather
      > Studies in historical archaeoethnology. vol. 4
      > Woodbridge. Boydell Press. 1999
      >
      > In the first contribution, the participants of the symposium on which
      > the book is based discuss the question of the origin of the Goths.
      > Once again, none of them believed that the old theory of a
      > Scandinavian homeland can be supported anymore. Especially, if you
      > read the recent books, by Heather, Todd, and Pohl, it is clear that
      > the question is not as 'unresolved' as some may want it to see, the
      > evidence is already plentiful.
      >
      > There is alo no need to read this modern literature with caution
      > (unless the author is a hobby historian and journalist like Peter
      > Arens, or course).
      >
      > Dirk
      >
      >
      >
      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
      >
    • einarbirg
      ... Hæ Bertil. Thanks for your info. I dont know what to belief about the origin of the Goths. I think we have a very complex problem here. I think that many
      Message 2 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
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        --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
        > _The Role of Migration in the History of the
        > Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
        > 'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
        > London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
        > ______________________________________
        >
        >
        >
        > As others before him Bell-Fialkoff also point to
        > the fact that Sweden historically "looked" east and
        > south, not west (which was the way Norwegians
        > "looked", for instance). The other side of the Baltic
        > was the traditional area of interest. The natural
        > thing, which i so obvious that it is not mentioned
        > by the editor, is that if you want to go southeast
        > from Goetaland you end up in the Vistula delta
        > and the surrounding area. The ethnogenesis occured
        > eccording to Wolfram between the rivers Oder
        > and Vistula.
        >
        > Gothically
        >
        > Bertil

        Hæ Bertil.

        Thanks for your info.
        I dont know what to belief about the origin of the Goths.
        I think we have a very complex problem here.
        I think that many Continental scholars are against the idea of a
        Scandinavain origin. Partly because they are not so much of a experts
        of Scandinavian history as they are of the Continental one.
        There can be other reasons too.
        Icelandic archaeologists claim that there are no remains to be found
        showing the activity of Celtic people in Iceland.
        Genetic scientists have another story to tell.
        So lets be cautious beliefing any firm statements from anyone
        whatever expert he is considered to be.

        The above you say about the Swedish "looked" to the east and south
        must be a outdated view. Traditionally there have been migrations
        from Sweden to present day south/south west and eastern part of
        present day Norway.
        And to the coastal areas around Trondheim.
        And all these areas are to the west.
        And Viking activity of the Swedish in the West is much more than
        generally believed.
        To solve this question we have to define what people lived in south
        and south west Norway.
        And the ruling families settling Iceland were definetely not
        Norwegians.

        According to Ottar the merchant then Norwegians must have been the
        people living in coastal areas of present day west Norway.
        That later changed when they managed to gain influence and rule the
        eastern territories as well. But all that happened after 900 A.D.

        Cheers Einar

        >
      • Tore Gannholm
        ... Einar, You are right in one way. However we are talking about different millennia. In the late Vendel period early Viking age it is very different. I still
        Message 3 of 10 , Jun 8, 2002
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          >--- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
          >> _The Role of Migration in the History of the
          > > Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
          >> 'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
          >> London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
          >> ______________________________________
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> As others before him Bell-Fialkoff also point to
          >> the fact that Sweden historically "looked" east and
          >> south, not west (which was the way Norwegians
          >> "looked", for instance). The other side of the Baltic
          >> was the traditional area of interest. The natural
          >> thing, which i so obvious that it is not mentioned
          >> by the editor, is that if you want to go southeast
          >> from Goetaland you end up in the Vistula delta
          >> and the surrounding area. The ethnogenesis occured
          >> eccording to Wolfram between the rivers Oder
          >> and Vistula.
          >>
          >> Gothically
          >>
          >> Bertil
          >
          >Hæ Bertil.
          >
          >Thanks for your info.
          >I dont know what to belief about the origin of the Goths.
          >I think we have a very complex problem here.
          >I think that many Continental scholars are against the idea of a
          >Scandinavain origin. Partly because they are not so much of a experts
          >of Scandinavian history as they are of the Continental one.
          >There can be other reasons too.
          >Icelandic archaeologists claim that there are no remains to be found
          >showing the activity of Celtic people in Iceland.
          >Genetic scientists have another story to tell.
          >So lets be cautious beliefing any firm statements from anyone
          >whatever expert he is considered to be.
          >
          >The above you say about the Swedish "looked" to the east and south
          >must be a outdated view. Traditionally there have been migrations
          >from Sweden to present day south/south west and eastern part of
          >present day Norway.
          >And to the coastal areas around Trondheim.
          >And all these areas are to the west.
          >And Viking activity of the Swedish in the West is much more than
          >generally believed.
          >To solve this question we have to define what people lived in south
          >and south west Norway.
          >And the ruling families settling Iceland were definetely not
          >Norwegians.
          >
          >According to Ottar the merchant then Norwegians must have been the
          >people living in coastal areas of present day west Norway.
          >That later changed when they managed to gain influence and rule the
          >eastern territories as well. But all that happened after 900 A.D.
          >
          >Cheers Einar
          >

          Einar,
          You are right in one way. However we are talking about different
          millennia. In the late Vendel period early Viking age it is very
          different. I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is the
          immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
          the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
          states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
          British isles-Island.

          Bertil is talking about the Bronze age and the Roman Iron age.

          If you have read Anders Kaliffs book "Gothis Connections" you can see
          that there was a common culture in present day Poland, Gotland and
          some coastal areas of eastern Sweden.
          This is how it looked like when the Wielbark culture was formed. The
          claim by many is that the Wielbark culture was an indigenous formed
          culture will therefore include Gotland and some coastal areas of
          eastern Sweden.

          There was probably much movement within this cultural area. It looks
          very much like the Gotlandic merchants were very influential and
          probably dominated the amber trade. We have archaeological proof for
          Gotlandic trading colonies from the Bronze age and forward in this
          cultural area. Why some continental scholars are so much against
          Gotlandic involvement I don't know.

          Just look at what we dig out from the earth every year.
          Just now they are showing parts of the "Spilling viking treasure" at
          the Historical museum in Stockholm, the largest viking silver
          treasure found in the world.

          Tore
          --
        • einarbirg
          ... the ... #### I agree with your main points.But the situation was more complex. ... see ... The ... #####Nothing comes from nothing. I dont belief that the
          Message 4 of 10 , Jun 11, 2002
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            --- In gothic-l@y..., Tore Gannholm <tore.gannholm@s...> wrote:
            > >--- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
            > >> _The Role of Migration in the History of the
            > > > Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
            > >> 'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
            > >> London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
            > >> ______________________________________
            > >>
            > >>
            ####### Hæ Tore.
            >
            > Einar,
            > You are right in one way. However we are talking about different
            > millennia. In the late Vendel period early Viking age it is very
            > different. I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
            the
            > immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
            > the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
            > states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
            > British isles-Island.

            #### I agree with your main points.But the situation was more complex.
            #####
            >
            > Bertil is talking about the Bronze age and the Roman Iron age.
            >
            > If you have read Anders Kaliffs book "Gothis Connections" you can
            see
            > that there was a common culture in present day Poland, Gotland and
            > some coastal areas of eastern Sweden.
            > This is how it looked like when the Wielbark culture was formed.
            The
            > claim by many is that the Wielbark culture was an indigenous formed
            > culture will therefore include Gotland and some coastal areas of
            > eastern Sweden.

            #####Nothing comes from nothing. I dont belief that the Wielbark
            culture was formed and sustained like out of the blue air without
            cultural influences from other areas.So i agree,mainly####
            >
            > There was probably much movement within this cultural area. It
            looks
            > very much like the Gotlandic merchants were very influential and
            > probably dominated the amber trade. We have archaeological proof
            for
            > Gotlandic trading colonies from the Bronze age and forward in this
            > cultural area. Why some continental scholars are so much against
            > Gotlandic involvement I don't know.

            #### I dont know either. Very probably the role of Gotland has been
            underestimated. Same could be the case with other islands in the
            Baltic. Though Gotland is biggest and in the middle so to say###
            >
            > Just look at what we dig out from the earth every year.
            > Just now they are showing parts of the "Spilling viking treasure"
            at
            > the Historical museum in Stockholm, the largest viking silver
            > treasure found in the world.
            >
            ####Yes,the role of Gotland has probably been underestimated###

            Cheers Einar
            > Tore
            > --
          • hrafnsnest
            Tore wrote: I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is the ... Hail Tore! I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 22, 2002
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              Tore wrote: "I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
              the
              > immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
              > the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
              > states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
              > British isles-Island."

              Hail Tore!
              I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
              settlement into the areas that you mention, especially Iceland.
              Rather than read through the many postings regarding this issue, I
              shall ask the following, what are your principal sources, from what
              geographical point(s) do you see them eminating from? And what
              information is there to point to the (H)eruls movement to Iceland?

              Odhvaknir
            • Tore Gannholm
              ... Hi! I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is something that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his sources. I have
              Message 6 of 10 , Jun 22, 2002
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                >Tore wrote: "I still maintain that the prelude to the Viking age is
                >the
                >> immigration of the Heruls to Lake Mälar area and their expansion in
                >> the Baltic with Gotlandic and Svear colonies in present day Baltic
                >> states and later on into the Russian river system and to Norway,
                >> British isles-Island."
                >
                >Hail Tore!
                > I am completely facsinated by the possible (H)erul expansion and
                >settlement into the areas that you mention, especially Iceland.
                >Rather than read through the many postings regarding this issue, I
                >shall ask the following, what are your principal sources, from what
                >geographical point(s) do you see them eminating from? And what
                >information is there to point to the (H)eruls movement to Iceland?
                >
                >Odhvaknir
                >

                Hi!

                I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is something
                that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
                sources.

                I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class to
                the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
                rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
                established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations in
                Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
                In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian rivers
                and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.

                Tore
                --
              • hrafnsnest
                Hail Tore! My apologies. I mistook ..British isles - Island. , for Iceland. What type of things are they finding at these sites that would indicate they were
                Message 7 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
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                  Hail Tore!
                  My apologies. I mistook "..British isles - Island.", for Iceland.
                  What type of things are they finding at these sites that would
                  indicate they were (H)eruli?
                  Odhvaknir

                  > I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is
                  something
                  > that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
                  > sources.
                  >
                  > I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class
                  to
                  > the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
                  > rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
                  > established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations
                  in
                  > Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
                  > In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian
                  rivers
                  > and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.
                  >
                  > Tore
                  > --
                • Tore Gannholm
                  Hi! Have you read my conclusions on http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/parla_/svear/default.htm Tore ... --
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
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                    Hi!
                    Have you read my conclusions on
                    http://www.stavgard.com/Gotland/parla_/svear/default.htm

                    Tore

                    >Hail Tore!
                    >My apologies. I mistook "..British isles - Island.", for Iceland.
                    >What type of things are they finding at these sites that would
                    >indicate they were (H)eruli?
                    >Odhvaknir
                    >
                    >> I never indicated that the Heruls moved to Iceland. This is
                    >something
                    >> that Einar Birgisson has brought up. You have to ask him for his
                    >> sources.
                    >>
                    >> I have only stated that there is an immigration of a ruling class
                    >to
                    >> the Lake Mälar area beginning 6th century. Later that century the
                    >> rulers of the Lake Mälar area together with the Gotlanders
                    >> established colonies on the East coast of the Baltic. Excavations
                    >in
                    >> Grobin, Apuole and Elbing.
                    >> In the 9th century they extended their travels to the Russian
                    >rivers
                    >> and we find large Scandinavian gravefields.
                    >>
                    >> Tore
                    > > --

                    --
                  • hrafnsnest
                    Hail Tore! I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes can
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
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                      Hail Tore!
                      I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with
                      your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes
                      can sometimes get garbled by the medievalist records keeper,
                      f.ex., "East Goth and West Goth" became "Goth and Magoth" from the
                      biblical "Gog and Magog". That said, if the Romans are calling a
                      particular people "the (H)eruli", then who is calling the Svear "the
                      Svear"?
                      And, in your opinion, how do the 1st person "ek erilaR" runestones,
                      which appear during the same time period, fit into the puzzle, after
                      all, they don't say "ek Suear"?
                      Finally, where is Grobin, Apuole and Elbing?
                      Odhvaknir
                    • Tore Gannholm
                      Hi! Have you read Guns, Germs and Steel The Fates of Human Societies Jared Diamond Sometimes the conqueror adopts the customs, religion and language (or part
                      Message 10 of 10 , Jun 23, 2002
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                        Hi!
                        Have you read
                        Guns, Germs and Steel
                        The Fates of Human Societies
                        Jared Diamond

                        Sometimes the conqueror adopts the customs, religion and language (or
                        part of it) from the conquered people. Sometimes it is the other way
                        round.

                        The name Svear is not used used until later. In Beowulf they are
                        called Scylfinga. The name Svear is not used yet. We are not even
                        sure they called themselves Heruls. It could be the Romans that
                        called them Heruls?!

                        Grobin is close to Libau in Latvija and Apoule is a little further inland.

                        Elibing or Elblag is east of Gdansk in Poland.

                        Tore




                        >Hail Tore!
                        >I just left your site, great info., and I am not in disagreement with
                        >your conclusions. But a question, I know that the names of tribes
                        >can sometimes get garbled by the medievalist records keeper,
                        >f.ex., "East Goth and West Goth" became "Goth and Magoth" from the
                        >biblical "Gog and Magog". That said, if the Romans are calling a
                        >particular people "the (H)eruli", then who is calling the Svear "the
                        >Svear"?
                        >And, in your opinion, how do the 1st person "ek erilaR" runestones,
                        >which appear during the same time period, fit into the puzzle, after
                        >all, they don't say "ek Suear"?
                        >Finally, where is Grobin, Apuole and Elbing?
                        >Odhvaknir
                        >

                        --

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