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Re: Goths, Goetaland, Gotland

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  • faltin2001
    ... This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the developments of
    Message 1 of 7 , May 27, 2002
      --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
      > An interesting book on matters of the Germanic-Gothic
      > homeland is _The Role of Migration in the History
      > of the Eurasian Steppe__(ed. A. Bell- Fialkoff),
      > London:Macmilan, 2000). I am pleased to note
      > that the editor is of a view of a southern
      > Scandinavian origin:





      This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in
      the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the
      developments of the past 25 years. The quotes below are a good
      example, of how outdated the book is. In fact, it is often not even
      refered to in new research. If somebody has limited funds to spend,
      don't waste it on this book and get something more up-to-date. ;-)

      Dirk













      >
      > "Musset (a French scholar, my note) placed their Urheimat
      > (the Germanic peoples, my note) in southern Scandinavia
      > in the late Bronze Age, an area where no pre-
      > Germanic linguistic substratum had been found
      > (p. 4).

      From there some Germanic tribes spread
      > along the Baltic coast, toward the Oder. Others
      > followed the coast of the North Sea, toward the Weser.
      > By 1000 BC, according to Musset, German habitat stretched
      > from the Ems to central Pomerania (Demougeot dated
      > their appearance in Pomerania much later, from 400 BC [
      > Demougeot, 1969, 45]. If we follow Musset, by 800 BC
      > Germans reached Westphalia in the West and Vistula
      > in the East. And 300 years later they could be found on the
      > lower Rhine, in Thuringia and Lower Sileasia (Musset, I, 4)."
      >
      > Lucien Musset, _Les invasions: les vagues germanique_, Paris:
      > Presses universitaires de France, 1965.
      >
      > Emilienne Demougeot, _Le formation de L'Europe et les
      > invasions barbares_, Paris: Editions Montaigne, 1969-1974.
      >
      > Gothically
      >
      > Bertil
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
      > > (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which
      should
      > > be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian
      origin
      > > theory. The book is by Walter Pohl and is called 'Die
      > > Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration', Kohlhammer Verlag,
      > > 2002.
      > >
      > > I shall provide a synopsis of some of the material from the book
      > > later on. But in short Pohl discusses the supposedly Scandinavian
      > > origin of Goths, Langobards and Burgundians and shows
      conclusively
      > > that modern historians and archaeologists reject this for all
      three
      > > peoples.
    • Bertil Haggman
      Dear listmembers, It is important to remember that the question of the origin of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive debate, on this list
      Message 2 of 7 , May 27, 2002
        Dear listmembers,

        It is important to remember that the question of the origin
        of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive
        debate, on this list and elsewhere. It is therefore important
        to note that some of the German language material produced
        (I am excepting Peter Arens) should be read with great
        caution. For those who do not read German the book below
        is providing some information of interest.

        _The Role of Migration in the History of the
        Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
        'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
        London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
        __________________________________________________

        One of the great controversies in Gothic history
        is the question of the origin of the Goths. Unless
        some sensational material appears this question
        will never be solved.

        The new book edited by Bell-Fialkoff accepts that
        Jordanes Scandza is Scandinavia. He accepts that
        archaeological evidence is inconclusive:

        "It does confirm the existence of the Gotho-Gepidan
        culture in Pomerania and lower Vistula at this time
        (the so-called Wielbark culture) and links it to seven
        specific elements. But only one of these can be
        archaelogically traced to Scandinavia. Even more
        significant is the fact that the Wielbark culture had
        already acquired its distinctiveness by the time of the
        putative Gothic migration from Scandinavia. These
        considerations make some scholars doubt the veracity
        of the Gothic tradition.

        And yet, there are several factors that support the
        traditional version. First, East Germanic languages
        (of which Gothic was one) were closer to North Germanic
        (i.e. Scandinavian) tongues than to West Germanic ones.
        Such affinity implies a close relationship, if not direct
        derivation. The toponymics of the island of Gotland,
        as well as the modern Swedish provinces of Oester-
        and Vaestergoetland, where the Goths had supposedly
        originated, also show linguistic affinity. Second. Count
        Oxenstierna excavated incineration burials in Oester-
        and Vaestergoetland that, numerous in the second and
        first centuries B.C. suddenly became rare after about
        50 B.C. This would suggest a disappearance of a
        significant portion of the previous population."

        Carlo Alberto Mastrelli in Volker Bierbauer et al,
        _I Goti_, Milan: Electa Lombardia, Elemond Editori
        Associati, 1994.

        Graf E.C. Oxenstierna, _Die Urheimat der Goten_.
        Leipzig, Mannus-Buecherei 73, 1945 (later printed
        in 1948).

        Gothically

        Bertil


        > This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in
        > the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the
        > developments of the past 25 years. The quotes below are a good
        > example, of how outdated the book is. In fact, it is often not even
        > refered to in new research. If somebody has limited funds to spend,
        > don't waste it on this book and get something more up-to-date. ;-)
      • faltin2001
        ... A good recent book on the subject is: The visigoths from the migration period to the seventh century. an ethnographic perspective. edited by Peter Heather
        Message 3 of 7 , May 28, 2002
          --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
          > Dear listmembers,
          >
          > It is important to remember that the question of the origin
          > of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive
          > debate, on this list and elsewhere. It is therefore important
          > to note that some of the German language material produced
          > (I am excepting Peter Arens) should be read with great
          > caution. For those who do not read German the book below
          > is providing some information of interest.



          A good recent book on the subject is:

          The visigoths from the migration period to the seventh century. an
          ethnographic perspective. edited by Peter Heather
          Studies in historical archaeoethnology. vol. 4
          Woodbridge. Boydell Press. 1999

          In the first contribution, the participants of the symposium on which
          the book is based discuss the question of the origin of the Goths.
          Once again, none of them believed that the old theory of a
          Scandinavian homeland can be supported anymore. Especially, if you
          read the recent books, by Heather, Todd, and Pohl, it is clear that
          the question is not as 'unresolved' as some may want it to see, the
          evidence is already plentiful.

          There is alo no need to read this modern literature with caution
          (unless the author is a hobby historian and journalist like Peter
          Arens, or course).

          Dirk
        • Bertil Haggman
          Thank you, Ingemar, for your latest contribution. Below are a few books to balance off Walter Pohl (who is he, BTW). Bell-Fialkoff, A., _The Role of Migration
          Message 4 of 7 , May 31, 2002
            Thank you, Ingemar, for your latest contribution.

            Below are a few books to balance off Walter Pohl (who is
            he, BTW).

            Bell-Fialkoff, A., _The Role of Migration in the History of
            the Eurasian Steppe_, London: Macmillan, 2000.

            Findeisen, Joerg-Peter, _Schweden - Von den Anfaengen bis zur
            Gegenwart_, Regensburg: Verlag Friedrich Pustet, 1998.

            Hermodsson, Lars, _Goterna - ett krigafolk och dess bibel_ ,
            Stockholm, Atlantis, 1993.

            Nordgren, I., Goterkaellan - om goterna i Norden och paa
            kontinenten_, Skara: Vaestergoetlands museums skriftserie nr
            30, 2000.

            Rodin, L. - Lindblom, V. - Klang, K., _Gudatraed och vaestgoetska
            skottkungar - Sveriges bysantiska arv_, Goeteborg: Tre boecker,
            1994.

            _Schaetze der Ostgoten_, Stuttgart: Theiss, 1995.

            _Studia Gotica - Die eisenzeitlichen Verbindungen zwischen Schweden
            und Suedosteuropa - Vortraege beim Gotensymposion im Statens
            Historiska Museum_, Stockholm 1970.

            Tacitus, _Germania_, (with introduction and commentary by J.B. Rives),
            Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1999.

            Gothically

            Bertil



            > There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
            > (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should
            > be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian origin
            > theory.
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