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Re: Goths, Goetaland, Gotland

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  • faltin2001
    There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should be most interesting for
    Message 1 of 7 , May 27, 2002
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      There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
      (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should
      be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian origin
      theory. The book is by Walter Pohl and is called 'Die
      Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration', Kohlhammer Verlag,
      2002.

      I shall provide a synopsis of some of the material from the book
      later on. But in short Pohl discusses the supposedly Scandinavian
      origin of Goths, Langobards and Burgundians and shows conclusively
      that modern historians and archaeologists reject this for all three
      peoples.

      Dirk






      --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
      > Al,
      >
      > There is compelling evidence that the Goths migrated
      > from southern Scandinavia (the region of Goetaland
      > or/and the island of Gotland). This matter has been
      > extensively discussed on this list. Important is the
      > linguistical similarity between the people name
      > Goths/Goti, the Gothic god Gaut, the names Gautaland/
      > Goetaland, the island of Gotland, and the name of the people who
      > lived and lives in Goetaland, the Gautar/Goetar.
      >
      > The importance of the Visigothic and Ostrogothic
      > kingdoms and Span and Italy has been described
      > in a recent valuabel work by Peter Arens, _Sturm
      > ueber Europa_ (Storm over Europe), Munich 2002.
      >
      > I will resend some of my contributions to give you
      > further indications on possible Gothic migration
      > from South Scandinavia.
      >
      > Gothically
      >
      > Bertil Haggman
      >
      >
      >
      > > Iam new to this group, but Iam have strong interest in the Gothic
      > > peoples of Europe. I still to believe that the peoples of
      southern
      > > Sweden, and Gotland, Northern Germany, Western Russia, and
      English
      > > people (distant relation;will be discuused) have Goth blood that
      runs
      > > in their veins. They are a very unique group of people, as 300
      > > century they conquered nealy all of Scythia, blandeting all
      Scythia
      > > tribes and 'slammed' into the Black sea far south. They also
      migrated
      > > west towards the Rhein river, crossed it, and have emulated with
      > > other peoples and other who have split the tribe and established
      own
      > > tribes in Germany, which interculturalted many German tribes and
      > > peoples. Then the West Goths, or politically correct the
      Visigoths,
      > > crossed the Rhein to conquer Spain of course. They have been seen
      > > very barbaric and one of the worst what the Romans called, but
      their
      > > culture favored the Romans as much as they wanted an Empire like
      the
      > > Romans.
    • Bertil Haggman
      An interesting book on matters of the Germanic-Gothic homeland is _The Role of Migration in the History of the Eurasian Steppe__(ed. A. Bell- Fialkoff),
      Message 2 of 7 , May 27, 2002
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        An interesting book on matters of the Germanic-Gothic
        homeland is _The Role of Migration in the History
        of the Eurasian Steppe__(ed. A. Bell- Fialkoff),
        London:Macmilan, 2000). I am pleased to note
        that the editor is of a view of a southern
        Scandinavian origin:

        "Musset (a French scholar, my note) placed their Urheimat
        (the Germanic peoples, my note) in southern Scandinavia
        in the late Bronze Age, an area where no pre-
        Germanic linguistic substratum had been found
        (p. 4). From there some Germanic tribes spread
        along the Baltic coast, toward the Oder. Others
        followed the coast of the North Sea, toward the Weser.
        By 1000 BC, according to Musset, German habitat stretched
        from the Ems to central Pomerania (Demougeot dated
        their appearance in Pomerania much later, from 400 BC [
        Demougeot, 1969, 45]. If we follow Musset, by 800 BC
        Germans reached Westphalia in the West and Vistula
        in the East. And 300 years later they could be found on the
        lower Rhine, in Thuringia and Lower Sileasia (Musset, I, 4)."

        Lucien Musset, _Les invasions: les vagues germanique_, Paris:
        Presses universitaires de France, 1965.

        Emilienne Demougeot, _Le formation de L'Europe et les
        invasions barbares_, Paris: Editions Montaigne, 1969-1974.

        Gothically

        Bertil




        > There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
        > (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should
        > be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian origin
        > theory. The book is by Walter Pohl and is called 'Die
        > Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration', Kohlhammer Verlag,
        > 2002.
        >
        > I shall provide a synopsis of some of the material from the book
        > later on. But in short Pohl discusses the supposedly Scandinavian
        > origin of Goths, Langobards and Burgundians and shows conclusively
        > that modern historians and archaeologists reject this for all three
        > peoples.
      • faltin2001
        ... This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the developments of
        Message 3 of 7 , May 27, 2002
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          --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
          > An interesting book on matters of the Germanic-Gothic
          > homeland is _The Role of Migration in the History
          > of the Eurasian Steppe__(ed. A. Bell- Fialkoff),
          > London:Macmilan, 2000). I am pleased to note
          > that the editor is of a view of a southern
          > Scandinavian origin:





          This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in
          the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the
          developments of the past 25 years. The quotes below are a good
          example, of how outdated the book is. In fact, it is often not even
          refered to in new research. If somebody has limited funds to spend,
          don't waste it on this book and get something more up-to-date. ;-)

          Dirk













          >
          > "Musset (a French scholar, my note) placed their Urheimat
          > (the Germanic peoples, my note) in southern Scandinavia
          > in the late Bronze Age, an area where no pre-
          > Germanic linguistic substratum had been found
          > (p. 4).

          From there some Germanic tribes spread
          > along the Baltic coast, toward the Oder. Others
          > followed the coast of the North Sea, toward the Weser.
          > By 1000 BC, according to Musset, German habitat stretched
          > from the Ems to central Pomerania (Demougeot dated
          > their appearance in Pomerania much later, from 400 BC [
          > Demougeot, 1969, 45]. If we follow Musset, by 800 BC
          > Germans reached Westphalia in the West and Vistula
          > in the East. And 300 years later they could be found on the
          > lower Rhine, in Thuringia and Lower Sileasia (Musset, I, 4)."
          >
          > Lucien Musset, _Les invasions: les vagues germanique_, Paris:
          > Presses universitaires de France, 1965.
          >
          > Emilienne Demougeot, _Le formation de L'Europe et les
          > invasions barbares_, Paris: Editions Montaigne, 1969-1974.
          >
          > Gothically
          >
          > Bertil
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
          > > (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which
          should
          > > be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian
          origin
          > > theory. The book is by Walter Pohl and is called 'Die
          > > Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration', Kohlhammer Verlag,
          > > 2002.
          > >
          > > I shall provide a synopsis of some of the material from the book
          > > later on. But in short Pohl discusses the supposedly Scandinavian
          > > origin of Goths, Langobards and Burgundians and shows
          conclusively
          > > that modern historians and archaeologists reject this for all
          three
          > > peoples.
        • Bertil Haggman
          Dear listmembers, It is important to remember that the question of the origin of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive debate, on this list
          Message 4 of 7 , May 27, 2002
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            Dear listmembers,

            It is important to remember that the question of the origin
            of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive
            debate, on this list and elsewhere. It is therefore important
            to note that some of the German language material produced
            (I am excepting Peter Arens) should be read with great
            caution. For those who do not read German the book below
            is providing some information of interest.

            _The Role of Migration in the History of the
            Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
            'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
            London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
            __________________________________________________

            One of the great controversies in Gothic history
            is the question of the origin of the Goths. Unless
            some sensational material appears this question
            will never be solved.

            The new book edited by Bell-Fialkoff accepts that
            Jordanes Scandza is Scandinavia. He accepts that
            archaeological evidence is inconclusive:

            "It does confirm the existence of the Gotho-Gepidan
            culture in Pomerania and lower Vistula at this time
            (the so-called Wielbark culture) and links it to seven
            specific elements. But only one of these can be
            archaelogically traced to Scandinavia. Even more
            significant is the fact that the Wielbark culture had
            already acquired its distinctiveness by the time of the
            putative Gothic migration from Scandinavia. These
            considerations make some scholars doubt the veracity
            of the Gothic tradition.

            And yet, there are several factors that support the
            traditional version. First, East Germanic languages
            (of which Gothic was one) were closer to North Germanic
            (i.e. Scandinavian) tongues than to West Germanic ones.
            Such affinity implies a close relationship, if not direct
            derivation. The toponymics of the island of Gotland,
            as well as the modern Swedish provinces of Oester-
            and Vaestergoetland, where the Goths had supposedly
            originated, also show linguistic affinity. Second. Count
            Oxenstierna excavated incineration burials in Oester-
            and Vaestergoetland that, numerous in the second and
            first centuries B.C. suddenly became rare after about
            50 B.C. This would suggest a disappearance of a
            significant portion of the previous population."

            Carlo Alberto Mastrelli in Volker Bierbauer et al,
            _I Goti_, Milan: Electa Lombardia, Elemond Editori
            Associati, 1994.

            Graf E.C. Oxenstierna, _Die Urheimat der Goten_.
            Leipzig, Mannus-Buecherei 73, 1945 (later printed
            in 1948).

            Gothically

            Bertil


            > This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in
            > the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the
            > developments of the past 25 years. The quotes below are a good
            > example, of how outdated the book is. In fact, it is often not even
            > refered to in new research. If somebody has limited funds to spend,
            > don't waste it on this book and get something more up-to-date. ;-)
          • faltin2001
            ... A good recent book on the subject is: The visigoths from the migration period to the seventh century. an ethnographic perspective. edited by Peter Heather
            Message 5 of 7 , May 28, 2002
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              --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
              > Dear listmembers,
              >
              > It is important to remember that the question of the origin
              > of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive
              > debate, on this list and elsewhere. It is therefore important
              > to note that some of the German language material produced
              > (I am excepting Peter Arens) should be read with great
              > caution. For those who do not read German the book below
              > is providing some information of interest.



              A good recent book on the subject is:

              The visigoths from the migration period to the seventh century. an
              ethnographic perspective. edited by Peter Heather
              Studies in historical archaeoethnology. vol. 4
              Woodbridge. Boydell Press. 1999

              In the first contribution, the participants of the symposium on which
              the book is based discuss the question of the origin of the Goths.
              Once again, none of them believed that the old theory of a
              Scandinavian homeland can be supported anymore. Especially, if you
              read the recent books, by Heather, Todd, and Pohl, it is clear that
              the question is not as 'unresolved' as some may want it to see, the
              evidence is already plentiful.

              There is alo no need to read this modern literature with caution
              (unless the author is a hobby historian and journalist like Peter
              Arens, or course).

              Dirk
            • Bertil Haggman
              Thank you, Ingemar, for your latest contribution. Below are a few books to balance off Walter Pohl (who is he, BTW). Bell-Fialkoff, A., _The Role of Migration
              Message 6 of 7 , May 31, 2002
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                Thank you, Ingemar, for your latest contribution.

                Below are a few books to balance off Walter Pohl (who is
                he, BTW).

                Bell-Fialkoff, A., _The Role of Migration in the History of
                the Eurasian Steppe_, London: Macmillan, 2000.

                Findeisen, Joerg-Peter, _Schweden - Von den Anfaengen bis zur
                Gegenwart_, Regensburg: Verlag Friedrich Pustet, 1998.

                Hermodsson, Lars, _Goterna - ett krigafolk och dess bibel_ ,
                Stockholm, Atlantis, 1993.

                Nordgren, I., Goterkaellan - om goterna i Norden och paa
                kontinenten_, Skara: Vaestergoetlands museums skriftserie nr
                30, 2000.

                Rodin, L. - Lindblom, V. - Klang, K., _Gudatraed och vaestgoetska
                skottkungar - Sveriges bysantiska arv_, Goeteborg: Tre boecker,
                1994.

                _Schaetze der Ostgoten_, Stuttgart: Theiss, 1995.

                _Studia Gotica - Die eisenzeitlichen Verbindungen zwischen Schweden
                und Suedosteuropa - Vortraege beim Gotensymposion im Statens
                Historiska Museum_, Stockholm 1970.

                Tacitus, _Germania_, (with introduction and commentary by J.B. Rives),
                Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1999.

                Gothically

                Bertil



                > There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
                > (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should
                > be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian origin
                > theory.
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