Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Goths, Goetaland, Gotland

Expand Messages
  • Bertil Haggman
    Al, There is compelling evidence that the Goths migrated from southern Scandinavia (the region of Goetaland or/and the island of Gotland). This matter has been
    Message 1 of 7 , May 25, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Al,

      There is compelling evidence that the Goths migrated
      from southern Scandinavia (the region of Goetaland
      or/and the island of Gotland). This matter has been
      extensively discussed on this list. Important is the
      linguistical similarity between the people name
      Goths/Goti, the Gothic god Gaut, the names Gautaland/
      Goetaland, the island of Gotland, and the name of the people who
      lived and lives in Goetaland, the Gautar/Goetar.

      The importance of the Visigothic and Ostrogothic
      kingdoms and Span and Italy has been described
      in a recent valuabel work by Peter Arens, _Sturm
      ueber Europa_ (Storm over Europe), Munich 2002.

      I will resend some of my contributions to give you
      further indications on possible Gothic migration
      from South Scandinavia.

      Gothically

      Bertil Haggman



      > Iam new to this group, but Iam have strong interest in the Gothic
      > peoples of Europe. I still to believe that the peoples of southern
      > Sweden, and Gotland, Northern Germany, Western Russia, and English
      > people (distant relation;will be discuused) have Goth blood that runs
      > in their veins. They are a very unique group of people, as 300
      > century they conquered nealy all of Scythia, blandeting all Scythia
      > tribes and 'slammed' into the Black sea far south. They also migrated
      > west towards the Rhein river, crossed it, and have emulated with
      > other peoples and other who have split the tribe and established own
      > tribes in Germany, which interculturalted many German tribes and
      > peoples. Then the West Goths, or politically correct the Visigoths,
      > crossed the Rhein to conquer Spain of course. They have been seen
      > very barbaric and one of the worst what the Romans called, but their
      > culture favored the Romans as much as they wanted an Empire like the
      > Romans.
    • faltin2001
      There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should be most interesting for
      Message 2 of 7 , May 27, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
        (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should
        be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian origin
        theory. The book is by Walter Pohl and is called 'Die
        Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration', Kohlhammer Verlag,
        2002.

        I shall provide a synopsis of some of the material from the book
        later on. But in short Pohl discusses the supposedly Scandinavian
        origin of Goths, Langobards and Burgundians and shows conclusively
        that modern historians and archaeologists reject this for all three
        peoples.

        Dirk






        --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
        > Al,
        >
        > There is compelling evidence that the Goths migrated
        > from southern Scandinavia (the region of Goetaland
        > or/and the island of Gotland). This matter has been
        > extensively discussed on this list. Important is the
        > linguistical similarity between the people name
        > Goths/Goti, the Gothic god Gaut, the names Gautaland/
        > Goetaland, the island of Gotland, and the name of the people who
        > lived and lives in Goetaland, the Gautar/Goetar.
        >
        > The importance of the Visigothic and Ostrogothic
        > kingdoms and Span and Italy has been described
        > in a recent valuabel work by Peter Arens, _Sturm
        > ueber Europa_ (Storm over Europe), Munich 2002.
        >
        > I will resend some of my contributions to give you
        > further indications on possible Gothic migration
        > from South Scandinavia.
        >
        > Gothically
        >
        > Bertil Haggman
        >
        >
        >
        > > Iam new to this group, but Iam have strong interest in the Gothic
        > > peoples of Europe. I still to believe that the peoples of
        southern
        > > Sweden, and Gotland, Northern Germany, Western Russia, and
        English
        > > people (distant relation;will be discuused) have Goth blood that
        runs
        > > in their veins. They are a very unique group of people, as 300
        > > century they conquered nealy all of Scythia, blandeting all
        Scythia
        > > tribes and 'slammed' into the Black sea far south. They also
        migrated
        > > west towards the Rhein river, crossed it, and have emulated with
        > > other peoples and other who have split the tribe and established
        own
        > > tribes in Germany, which interculturalted many German tribes and
        > > peoples. Then the West Goths, or politically correct the
        Visigoths,
        > > crossed the Rhein to conquer Spain of course. They have been seen
        > > very barbaric and one of the worst what the Romans called, but
        their
        > > culture favored the Romans as much as they wanted an Empire like
        the
        > > Romans.
      • Bertil Haggman
        An interesting book on matters of the Germanic-Gothic homeland is _The Role of Migration in the History of the Eurasian Steppe__(ed. A. Bell- Fialkoff),
        Message 3 of 7 , May 27, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          An interesting book on matters of the Germanic-Gothic
          homeland is _The Role of Migration in the History
          of the Eurasian Steppe__(ed. A. Bell- Fialkoff),
          London:Macmilan, 2000). I am pleased to note
          that the editor is of a view of a southern
          Scandinavian origin:

          "Musset (a French scholar, my note) placed their Urheimat
          (the Germanic peoples, my note) in southern Scandinavia
          in the late Bronze Age, an area where no pre-
          Germanic linguistic substratum had been found
          (p. 4). From there some Germanic tribes spread
          along the Baltic coast, toward the Oder. Others
          followed the coast of the North Sea, toward the Weser.
          By 1000 BC, according to Musset, German habitat stretched
          from the Ems to central Pomerania (Demougeot dated
          their appearance in Pomerania much later, from 400 BC [
          Demougeot, 1969, 45]. If we follow Musset, by 800 BC
          Germans reached Westphalia in the West and Vistula
          in the East. And 300 years later they could be found on the
          lower Rhine, in Thuringia and Lower Sileasia (Musset, I, 4)."

          Lucien Musset, _Les invasions: les vagues germanique_, Paris:
          Presses universitaires de France, 1965.

          Emilienne Demougeot, _Le formation de L'Europe et les
          invasions barbares_, Paris: Editions Montaigne, 1969-1974.

          Gothically

          Bertil




          > There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
          > (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should
          > be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian origin
          > theory. The book is by Walter Pohl and is called 'Die
          > Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration', Kohlhammer Verlag,
          > 2002.
          >
          > I shall provide a synopsis of some of the material from the book
          > later on. But in short Pohl discusses the supposedly Scandinavian
          > origin of Goths, Langobards and Burgundians and shows conclusively
          > that modern historians and archaeologists reject this for all three
          > peoples.
        • faltin2001
          ... This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the developments of
          Message 4 of 7 , May 27, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
            > An interesting book on matters of the Germanic-Gothic
            > homeland is _The Role of Migration in the History
            > of the Eurasian Steppe__(ed. A. Bell- Fialkoff),
            > London:Macmilan, 2000). I am pleased to note
            > that the editor is of a view of a southern
            > Scandinavian origin:





            This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in
            the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the
            developments of the past 25 years. The quotes below are a good
            example, of how outdated the book is. In fact, it is often not even
            refered to in new research. If somebody has limited funds to spend,
            don't waste it on this book and get something more up-to-date. ;-)

            Dirk













            >
            > "Musset (a French scholar, my note) placed their Urheimat
            > (the Germanic peoples, my note) in southern Scandinavia
            > in the late Bronze Age, an area where no pre-
            > Germanic linguistic substratum had been found
            > (p. 4).

            From there some Germanic tribes spread
            > along the Baltic coast, toward the Oder. Others
            > followed the coast of the North Sea, toward the Weser.
            > By 1000 BC, according to Musset, German habitat stretched
            > from the Ems to central Pomerania (Demougeot dated
            > their appearance in Pomerania much later, from 400 BC [
            > Demougeot, 1969, 45]. If we follow Musset, by 800 BC
            > Germans reached Westphalia in the West and Vistula
            > in the East. And 300 years later they could be found on the
            > lower Rhine, in Thuringia and Lower Sileasia (Musset, I, 4)."
            >
            > Lucien Musset, _Les invasions: les vagues germanique_, Paris:
            > Presses universitaires de France, 1965.
            >
            > Emilienne Demougeot, _Le formation de L'Europe et les
            > invasions barbares_, Paris: Editions Montaigne, 1969-1974.
            >
            > Gothically
            >
            > Bertil
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
            > > (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which
            should
            > > be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian
            origin
            > > theory. The book is by Walter Pohl and is called 'Die
            > > Voelkerwanderung: Eroberung und Integration', Kohlhammer Verlag,
            > > 2002.
            > >
            > > I shall provide a synopsis of some of the material from the book
            > > later on. But in short Pohl discusses the supposedly Scandinavian
            > > origin of Goths, Langobards and Burgundians and shows
            conclusively
            > > that modern historians and archaeologists reject this for all
            three
            > > peoples.
          • Bertil Haggman
            Dear listmembers, It is important to remember that the question of the origin of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive debate, on this list
            Message 5 of 7 , May 27, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear listmembers,

              It is important to remember that the question of the origin
              of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive
              debate, on this list and elsewhere. It is therefore important
              to note that some of the German language material produced
              (I am excepting Peter Arens) should be read with great
              caution. For those who do not read German the book below
              is providing some information of interest.

              _The Role of Migration in the History of the
              Eurasian Steppe - Sedentary Civilization vs. -
              'Barbarian' and Nomad, (ed. Andrew Bell-Fialkoff),
              London: Macmillan, 2000, 355 pp.
              __________________________________________________

              One of the great controversies in Gothic history
              is the question of the origin of the Goths. Unless
              some sensational material appears this question
              will never be solved.

              The new book edited by Bell-Fialkoff accepts that
              Jordanes Scandza is Scandinavia. He accepts that
              archaeological evidence is inconclusive:

              "It does confirm the existence of the Gotho-Gepidan
              culture in Pomerania and lower Vistula at this time
              (the so-called Wielbark culture) and links it to seven
              specific elements. But only one of these can be
              archaelogically traced to Scandinavia. Even more
              significant is the fact that the Wielbark culture had
              already acquired its distinctiveness by the time of the
              putative Gothic migration from Scandinavia. These
              considerations make some scholars doubt the veracity
              of the Gothic tradition.

              And yet, there are several factors that support the
              traditional version. First, East Germanic languages
              (of which Gothic was one) were closer to North Germanic
              (i.e. Scandinavian) tongues than to West Germanic ones.
              Such affinity implies a close relationship, if not direct
              derivation. The toponymics of the island of Gotland,
              as well as the modern Swedish provinces of Oester-
              and Vaestergoetland, where the Goths had supposedly
              originated, also show linguistic affinity. Second. Count
              Oxenstierna excavated incineration burials in Oester-
              and Vaestergoetland that, numerous in the second and
              first centuries B.C. suddenly became rare after about
              50 B.C. This would suggest a disappearance of a
              significant portion of the previous population."

              Carlo Alberto Mastrelli in Volker Bierbauer et al,
              _I Goti_, Milan: Electa Lombardia, Elemond Editori
              Associati, 1994.

              Graf E.C. Oxenstierna, _Die Urheimat der Goten_.
              Leipzig, Mannus-Buecherei 73, 1945 (later printed
              in 1948).

              Gothically

              Bertil


              > This book by Musset, is basically a reprint of his work published in
              > the 1970s. Unfortunately, no effort was made to take account of the
              > developments of the past 25 years. The quotes below are a good
              > example, of how outdated the book is. In fact, it is often not even
              > refered to in new research. If somebody has limited funds to spend,
              > don't waste it on this book and get something more up-to-date. ;-)
            • faltin2001
              ... A good recent book on the subject is: The visigoths from the migration period to the seventh century. an ethnographic perspective. edited by Peter Heather
              Message 6 of 7 , May 28, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                > Dear listmembers,
                >
                > It is important to remember that the question of the origin
                > of the Goths is not solved and is the matter of extensive
                > debate, on this list and elsewhere. It is therefore important
                > to note that some of the German language material produced
                > (I am excepting Peter Arens) should be read with great
                > caution. For those who do not read German the book below
                > is providing some information of interest.



                A good recent book on the subject is:

                The visigoths from the migration period to the seventh century. an
                ethnographic perspective. edited by Peter Heather
                Studies in historical archaeoethnology. vol. 4
                Woodbridge. Boydell Press. 1999

                In the first contribution, the participants of the symposium on which
                the book is based discuss the question of the origin of the Goths.
                Once again, none of them believed that the old theory of a
                Scandinavian homeland can be supported anymore. Especially, if you
                read the recent books, by Heather, Todd, and Pohl, it is clear that
                the question is not as 'unresolved' as some may want it to see, the
                evidence is already plentiful.

                There is alo no need to read this modern literature with caution
                (unless the author is a hobby historian and journalist like Peter
                Arens, or course).

                Dirk
              • Bertil Haggman
                Thank you, Ingemar, for your latest contribution. Below are a few books to balance off Walter Pohl (who is he, BTW). Bell-Fialkoff, A., _The Role of Migration
                Message 7 of 7 , May 31, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thank you, Ingemar, for your latest contribution.

                  Below are a few books to balance off Walter Pohl (who is
                  he, BTW).

                  Bell-Fialkoff, A., _The Role of Migration in the History of
                  the Eurasian Steppe_, London: Macmillan, 2000.

                  Findeisen, Joerg-Peter, _Schweden - Von den Anfaengen bis zur
                  Gegenwart_, Regensburg: Verlag Friedrich Pustet, 1998.

                  Hermodsson, Lars, _Goterna - ett krigafolk och dess bibel_ ,
                  Stockholm, Atlantis, 1993.

                  Nordgren, I., Goterkaellan - om goterna i Norden och paa
                  kontinenten_, Skara: Vaestergoetlands museums skriftserie nr
                  30, 2000.

                  Rodin, L. - Lindblom, V. - Klang, K., _Gudatraed och vaestgoetska
                  skottkungar - Sveriges bysantiska arv_, Goeteborg: Tre boecker,
                  1994.

                  _Schaetze der Ostgoten_, Stuttgart: Theiss, 1995.

                  _Studia Gotica - Die eisenzeitlichen Verbindungen zwischen Schweden
                  und Suedosteuropa - Vortraege beim Gotensymposion im Statens
                  Historiska Museum_, Stockholm 1970.

                  Tacitus, _Germania_, (with introduction and commentary by J.B. Rives),
                  Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1999.

                  Gothically

                  Bertil



                  > There is a more recent book, by a real historian and real experts
                  > (not a hobby historian and journalist like Peter Arens), which should
                  > be most interesting for those still flogging the Scandinavian origin
                  > theory.
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.