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Ermanrik's Regnum Ostrogotorum

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  • Bertil Haggman
    No, I haven t forgotten. Was just wondering what kind of time frame you had. Yes, I know about the possible old age of Ermanarik according to Jordanes, but we
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 20, 2002
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      No, I haven't forgotten. Was just wondering
      what kind of time frame you had. Yes,
      I know about the possible old age of
      Ermanarik according to Jordanes, but
      we must not look upon Jordanes as
      hard fact, but an important source to
      be evaluated.

      You are free at any time to seize this
      discussion, which was started at your
      own initiative. A number of views and
      texts have been presented on the
      Regnum Ostrogotorum of interest.

      What other source would you like to
      present to bolster the argument . There
      does not seem to be much to show
      for the your limits the Regnum Ostrogotorum.
      Unless you come up with some more
      I think it is better you accept the fact
      of your being close to the historical truth
      as an optimist's vain hope. Also
      it does not make for a fruitful discussion
      to cry "ridiculous". Rather look upon
      your own view as being just one of
      many interpretations.

      It is likely that Jordanes was aware of
      Plinius, Tacitus, Ptolemaios. In 16 Jordanes
      even mentions Claudius Ptolemaios and
      Pomponius Mela as sources. But that does
      not necessarily mean that Jordanes
      automatically accepted their descriptions.
      You have veered somewhat off course here.
      I have explained in clear terms why I personally
      don't think the Regnum Ostrogotorum ended
      at Rhine and that if Jordanes is writing
      that Ermanarik reigned Scythia and Germania
      this is not to be taken as a hard fact.

      Although I don't find the discussion with you as
      a complete waste of time I think maybe it is a
      good idea to end the discussion. As you believe
      you have arrived close to the historical truth
      that would likely mean that you find that the
      question of the limits Regnum Ostrogotorum is
      solved and commentary that does not fit into this
      solution are not worthy of consideration.

      To sum up the my views based on other sources
      than yours (except for Jordanes): the Regnum
      Ostrogotorum was a confederation of peoples ruled
      by Ermanaric. It is of course impossible to to exactly
      delineate any borders but the confederation likely
      stretched from The Baltic Sea in the north, the River Volga
      in the east and the Caspian sea and the Black sea
      in the south. The western limits are more unsure
      but likely did not stretch further than the River Elbe.

      Bertil Haggman





      > It's difficult to help someone who forgets
      > dates mentioned only a couple of days ago. The
      > standard notion is 350-370 AD which might be stretched
      > to 345-375 AD. In Jordanes' imagination it "ended"
      > with the death of Hermanaric at the age of 110. So we
      > have this remarkable individual entering on a process
      > of empire-building at the age of 80 or so (if one
      > believes Jordanes).

      > It's impossible to carry on a discussion with
      > someone who doesn't even understand the simplest
      > texts. It is not ME who is suggesting the above, but
      > JORDANES.

      > How many times does one have to repeat that
      > the claim that Hermanaric dominated "ALL the nations
      > of Germania and Scythia" in the period in question is
      > completely at variance with what we know of the
      > epoch's history? The standard definition of
      > "ridiculous" is= "unworthy of serious consideration;
      > absurd". What Jordanes claims is precisely that.

      > There are mentions of Germania which are
      > unambiguous in context. There are references to other
      > geographers, Greek and Latin, on whom Jordanes relied.

      > further discussion is
      > a complete waste of time.
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