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Visigoths and Ostrogoths

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  • Bertil Haggman
    Oskar, Have already quoted Jordanes on the Ostrogoths and Visigoths in the 4th century. But basically I think the designations are unimportant. More
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 3, 2002
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      Oskar,

      Have already quoted Jordanes on the Ostrogoths
      and Visigoths in the 4th century. But basically
      I think the designations are unimportant. More
      interesting is that two peoples emerged before
      the Visigoths moved to Gaul and Spain.

      I will let Ingemar explain this based partly, I guess,
      on his excellent recent book on the Goths.

      The question of the origin of the Goths has been debated endlessly on
      this list. So far no complete evidence has been presented that
      places the ethnogenesis of the Goths in northern Poland.
      Lately the discussion has evolved into mentioning
      names, which are supposed to provide the evidence for
      this ethnogenesis. The fact is that further answers may
      only be provided by the study of ancient DNA. Some
      valuable research has been done in England and
      and new evidence may be provided from archaelogical
      research in Italy and Spain.

      Ingemar's book _Goterkaellan - om goterna
      i norden och paa kontinenten_ (2000) is providing a study that
      points to a south Scandinavian origin. I would also like to
      refer to the excellent _Schaetze der Ostgoten_ (1995), first
      recommended to me by Tore. In the latter book there is strong
      Polish support for the Scandinavian origin.

      _Studia Gotica - Die eisenzeitliche Verbindungen zwischen
      Schweden und Suedosteuropa_ (1972) can provide the interested
      reader with information on the migration of the Goths from
      south Scandinavia.

      The story of the opposing views can be found in the archives
      of this list which basically is a list for the Gothic language.

      Gothically

      Bertil
    • Oskar Andersson
      Hi, ... They seem not too unimportant as you seem fond to make use of them, and unfortunately I think, anachronistically. Both terms are used quite frequently
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 3, 2002
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        Hi,

        > Oskar,
        >
        > Have already quoted Jordanes on the Ostrogoths
        > and Visigoths in the 4th century. But basically
        > I think the designations are unimportant. More
        > interesting is that two peoples emerged before
        > the Visigoths moved to Gaul and Spain.

        They seem not too unimportant as you seem fond to make use of them,
        and unfortunately I think, anachronistically. Both terms are used quite
        frequently in different places, and I think it is time to clarify the issue - for
        the sake of it! Considering that the migrations of the Goths, from the Black Sea
        region and into the Empire, is of paramount historical importance I think it is of
        great worth to get it right. It is important in excavating Gothic identity too if we are
        able to discern Visigoths and Ostrogoths prior to the different kingdoms in Gaul/Spain
        and Italy!


        > I will let Ingemar explain this based partly, I guess,
        > on his excellent recent book on the Goths.
        >
        > The question of the origin of the Goths has been debated endlessly on
        > this list. So far no complete evidence has been presented that
        > places the ethnogenesis of the Goths in northern Poland.
        > Lately the discussion has evolved into mentioning
        > names, which are supposed to provide the evidence for
        > this ethnogenesis. The fact is that further answers may
        > only be provided by the study of ancient DNA. Some
        > valuable research has been done in England and
        > and new evidence may be provided from archaelogical
        > research in Italy and Spain.

        I look forward to that!

        *snip*

        > Gothically
        >
        > Bertil

        Regards,
        Oskar
      • andreas.schwarcz@univie.ac.at
        Dear Bertil, my friend Andrzej Kokowsi, who is responsible for Die Schätze der Ostgoten , is an excellent archeologist, but unfortunately not a historian and
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 4, 2002
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          Dear Bertil,
          my friend Andrzej Kokowsi, who is responsible for "Die Schätze der
          Ostgoten", is an excellent archeologist, but unfortunately not a
          historian and he did not use (and did not cite) Wolfram's and
          Heather's books on the Goths for his historic introduction, but relied
          on older historic literature. In the archeological part of the catalogue
          he follows the mainstream of modern Polish archeology and defines
          the Wielbark culture as autochthonous. His attempt to combine Ernst
          Schwarz and Wenskus as historians with his archeological expertise
          gives a misleading picture. It was a nice exhibition at Holzminden
          (and I gave a lecture on the history of the Goths there which gave a
          slightly different view at least to the people who attended it), but I
          would not rely on Andrzej Kokowski's historic introduction to the very
          fine archeological catalogue he produced for it.
          Kind regards
          Andreas
          ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
          Institut fuer oesterreichische Geschichtsforschung
          Universitaet Wien
          Dr.Karl-Lueger-Ring 1
          A 1010 Wien
          Oesterreich
          tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
          fax 0043/1/42-77/92-72
          email andreas.schwarcz@...
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