Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Heruls and Archaeology

Expand Messages
  • faltin2001
    ... Troels, that is true, but several authors, including Werner, Tejral and Pohl have pointed out that they probably the most hunnized of all Germanic
    Message 1 of 28 , Dec 5, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
      > Dirk,
      >
      > It has been stated that the Heruls were Eastgermanics and not Huns,
      > and we know they revolted against and left the Huns 50 years before
      > they went to Scandinavia.


      Troels,

      that is true, but several authors, including Werner, Tejral and Pohl
      have pointed out that they probably the most 'hunnized' of all
      Germanic people. If a cultural influence of Hunnic domination remained
      visible among the Thuringians into the 6th century, one may expect it
      to remain visible among Heruls as well.



      > Therefore most of your German analyzes
      > below are irrelevant in relation to Procopius and the Heruls, and
      the
      > brief changes regarding the Saxons tells a lot.


      I think I showed that archaeologist can identify sufficiantly large
      migrations in the material cultures. That was the point that I was
      trying to make and I think it was relevant.






      >
      > You do not mention that the official archaeological periods in
      > Denmark and Sweden changed (due to changes in burials, offerings and
      > military), when the Heruls settled - just to choose the most
      > significant general change - but I will not blame you being a German
      > in London that your Scandinavian sources are limited.


      Since you are a Swede in Sweden, you could perhaps suggest some
      mainstream archaeological literature on Swedish archaeology that
      covers that period. I shall ask somebody at the Swedish Archaeological
      Society if they have an answer.






      >
      > We do not know the characteristics of the Heruls and until now I
      have
      > not found any archaeologist investigating that problem related to
      > Scandinavia.


      There are some indications about the characteristics of a culture
      carried by the Heruls. Even if graves attributed to them by authors
      like Tejral and Werner were not Herulic they would still belong firmly
      to some sort of East Germanic cultural group, which are well defined
      and identifiable.





      Most of the Scandinavian scholars covering that period
      > have analyzed the connections to Western Europe (Franks, Lombards
      and
      > Alamans) but very seldom the connections to the former
      Czeckoslovakia.
      >
      > However the discussion you want to provoke will lead you nowhere.



      I don't want to 'provoke' anything or anybody. But after all this is a
      discussion group and its sole purpose is to 'initiate' and lead
      discussions, even if the outcome is not what you hope it would.



      It
      > has not been proved by archaeology, that the Heruls settled in
      > Sweden, and neither has it been proved that they did not - and as
      you
      > already know from other discussions, you will not do it in this way.
      > You have to wait.



      I have no clear overview of Swedish archaeological literature, so I
      would not know for what to wait or how long to wait. Maybe the answer
      is already out there. BTW, why this agressive tone? If you don't want
      this discussion don't participate. Others may have ideas that they
      wish to bring in and may find an exchange about it interesting, even
      if we can't break the limits of current scientific boundaries.


      cheers,
      Dirk








      >
      > --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
      > > I tried to verify suggestions that a Herulic migration to
      > Scandinavia
      > > was reflected in a change in the archaeological cultures of Sweden
      > > and/or even affected a massive cultural change in form of the
      > creation
      > > of the Vendel culture.
      > >
      > > Firstly, in the process of checking some sources I discovered that
      > I
      > > was wrong when I earlier said that the Saxons who returned from
      > Italy
      > > are not identified by archaeology. In Studien zur Sachsenforschung
      > No.
      > > 13, 1999, it is clear that archaeologists are able to show that
      > these
      > > Saxons really did re-settle in the Harzvorland, just as Gregory of
      > > Tours had said.
      > >
      > > Yet, I could not find any source on Swedish archaeology that
      stated
      > > that an influx of Heruls or any other East Germanic culture was
      > > responsible for cultural changes in Sweden or is even detectable.
      > > Especially J. Werner, who analysed the archaeology of the Attila
      > > period and the spread of cultural influences caused by the Huns
      > found
      > > apparently no trace of this in Scandinavia. In this context, the
      > > appearance of occasional East Germanic or Mediterranean cultural
      > > objects is not very significant. Archaeologists seem to be looking
      > for
      > > changes in customs that can be linked to another culture. As an
      > > example of what sort of archaeological evidence would be
      indicative
      > of
      > > a East Germanic migration to Scandinavia I would like to briefly
      > line
      > > out the recent finding in German archaeology, which is
      particularly
      > > relevant to this list.
      > >
      > > Prof. Berthold Schmidt found (Studien zur Sachsenforschung No. 13,
      > > 1999) that in the aftermath of the arrival of the Huns in south
      > > eastern Europe, carriers of the Gothic Chernyahkovsk culture and
      > the
      > > Sintana de Mures Culture moved into Middle-Germany. According to
      > > Schmidt, this constituted a migration that is not attested in the
      > > historical sources, but which was nonetheless of substantial size.
      > It
      > > led in the last quarter of the 4th century to the creation of the
      > so
      > > called 'Niemberger Gruppe' and 'Grossbadegaster Gruppe' in middle
      > > Germany, which is a direct continuation of the Sintana de Mures
      and
      > > western Chernyakhovsk cultures.
      > >
      > > Apart from decorations etc. one of the characteristics of this
      > culture
      > > are the way in which bodies were placed in the graves. Thus, one
      > way
      > > was to place them on their face. This influx of East Germanic
      > people
      > > may have been significant in the Thuringian ethnogenesis. The
      > > Thuringians are first mentioned in 400AD. From the 420s/30s actual
      > > conflict with Huns is demonstrated by the grave material in
      > Thuringia.
      > > Burials of the Niemberger Gruppe show frequent battle wounds
      > including
      > > nomadic arrowheads in the wounds. From 430AD the area came under
      > > Hunnic domination, with nomadic weaponry and decorations appearing
      > in
      > > rich graves. Also, the custom of artificial skull deformations
      > becomes
      > > very widespread in Thuringia. Some 50% of the artificially
      deformed
      > > skull show 'mongolic' features. The dating was made possible by
      the
      > > discovery of a 20-year old Germanic woman, who died in about 450AD
      > and
      > > who's skull had been deformed in early childhood. The Hunnic
      > influence
      > > starts to fade after the battle at the Nedao, but artificial skull
      > > deformations remain in custom until the first third of the 6th
      > > century.
      > >
      > > While this is an interesting example of a migration that can only
      > be
      > > identified by its archaeological evidence, it seems to be
      > informative
      > > for the indications that we would have to expect if Heruls had
      > > migrated to Scandinavia. Thus, one would need cultural
      > characteristics
      > > that can be linked directly to the East Germanic groups in
      Moravia.
      > I
      > > particular should archaeological evidence reflect the arrival of
      > new
      > > customs like burial practices. Pohl has also emphasised the
      > widespread
      > > use of artificial skull deformations among graves attributed to
      > > Heruls.
      > >
      > > I have tried to find archaeological reports about Sweden covering
      > the
      > > period and areas in question. One such report seemed to explain
      the
      > > appearance of the Vendel culture around Uppsala with the
      > exploitation
      > > of iron mining. Somewhat older authors like Terjal (1970s) and
      > Werner
      > > (1950s), who are mainly concerned with the archaeology of the
      > > Attila-period. make no mention of East Germanic cultures in
      > > Scandinavia. However, there could be more up-to-date research and
      > it
      > > might be interesting to pose the question of whether or not anEast
      > > Germanic culture has entered Sweden around 500AD.
      > >
      > > cheers,
      > >
      > > Dirk
    • faltin2001
      ... artificial skull deformations ... Hi, artificial skull deformatation is a custom that originated in the Russian/Asian steppe and reached Europe during the
      Message 2 of 28 , Dec 5, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Dirk,
        > What does this mean would you explain? " the custom of
        artificial skull deformations"
        > first time I heard of such a custom.



        Hi,

        artificial skull deformatation is a custom that originated in the
        Russian/Asian steppe and reached Europe during the perod of the great
        Migration (378AD-568AD). Skull deformation involved binding the skull
        of an infant in such a way as to elongate the shape of the skull. The
        practice was adopted by some Germanic people who were under
        particularly strong influence from the Huns.

        cheers
        Dirk




        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • faltin2001
        ... Hi George, thanks for the information, that is very interesting. I was quite surprised that new research can show such a strong influence of the
        Message 3 of 28 , Dec 5, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In gothic-l@y..., george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
          >
          > --- dirk@s... wrote:
          > >
          > > Prof. Berthold Schmidt found (Studien zur
          > > Sachsenforschung No. 13,
          > > 1999) that in the aftermath of the arrival of the
          > > Huns in south
          > > eastern Europe, carriers of the Gothic Chernyahkovsk
          > > culture and the
          > > Sintana de Mures Culture moved into Middle-Germany.
          > > According to
          > > Schmidt, this constituted a migration that is not
          > > attested in the
          > > historical sources, but which was nonetheless of
          > > substantial size. It
          > > led in the last quarter of the 4th century to the
          > > creation of the so
          > > called 'Niemberger Gruppe' and 'Grossbadegaster
          > > Gruppe' in middle
          > > Germany, which is a direct continuation of the
          > > Sintana de Mures and
          > > western Chernyakhovsk cultures.


          Hi George,

          thanks for the information, that is very interesting. I was quite
          surprised that new research can show such a strong influence of the
          Chernyakovsk and Sintana de Mures cultures in middle-Germany, even
          leading to the creation of separate archaeological groups. I find it
          particularly interesting that these people may have played a
          significant role in the formation of the Thuringian kingdom. Overall,
          we tend to count only migration movements that are attested in written
          sources, but this research shows that a significant part of the East
          Germanic people fled from the Huns in a more northernly direction as
          well. Do you know which tribes are seen as the carriers of the Western
          Chernyakhovsk and Sintana de Mures cultures in the late 4th century?

          cheers,
          Dirk





          >
          > ******GK: Thank you very much for this information. I
          > have been a long time student of the Chernyakhivs'ka
          > kultura (as it is known in Ukraine, from the village
          > of Chernyakhiv south of Kyiv/Kiev), and can place this
          > in perspective. This culture was not an "ethnic"
          > phenomenon, and came to be associated with many
          > different groups, including the Goths. It emerged at
          > the beginning of the 1rst c. AD, after the Roman limes
          > was moved across the Danube with the conquest of
          > Dacia, and developed under the strong influence of the
          > Roman provincial culture. The earliest group
          > evidencing "Chernyakhiv" traits were actually the
          > Geto-Dacians and Bastarnae of contemporary Moldavia.
          > Then it spread to the Scytho-Sarmatians of the Black
          > Sea coastline, and the Slavs of the upper Dnister.
          > When the Goths and other Germanic peoples arrived on
          > the territory of contemporary Ukraine (the influx
          > began in the last years of the 2nd c. AD and
          > accelerated in the 3rd c. as group after group pressed
          > southeastward along the Bug and Boh rivers) they had
          > their own culture, the so-called Welbark culture,
          > which survived for generations, producing many
          > intermediary "Welbark-Chernyakhiv" sites. By the 4th
          > c. the Germanic peoples as well as the Alans settled
          > further east beyond the Dnipro/Dnepr were fully
          > integrated into "Chernyakhiv". As one can imagine
          > there was a great deal of cross-cultural borrowing and
          > influence. When the Goths arrived, for instance, they
          > practised the rite of cremating their dead with little
          > exception. Under the influence of the Sarmatian and
          > Alans some of them began to switch to the rite of
          > inhumation. It would be interesting to know the
          > proportion of cremation-inhumation sites in Thuringia
          > after 376 AD. Another custom which this population
          > seems to have adopted is that of skull deformations.
          > This originated among the Alans and was subsequently
          > practised by some Huns (and now, we are told, by some
          > Germans too). One further caveat about ethnicity. The
          > political system which existed in the eastern
          > territories where the Goths settled led to increasing
          > clout by Gothic (and Gepidic) clans. Under the impact
          > of the Huns the outflow was not exclusively Gothic,
          > but included many other subordinated elements (esp.
          > Scytho-Sarmatian, Dacian and Alanic: cf. Alatheus and
          > Saphrax of the 376 story), which were progressively
          > integrated into Gothic and other Germanic groups but
          > may have retained their distinct identity in very
          > early post-migration times. In similar fashion, the
          > Goths who remained in the East["Reithgotaland"]
          > (except those of the Crimea, though they too were
          > hellenized and turkicised later) were absorbed by the
          > locals esp. the Slavs. Again this information about
          > Chernyakhiv-Sintana de Mures in Thuringia is
          > fascinating. I had always wondered if any evidence
          > existed of Chernyakhiv outflow westward with Goths and
          > others. Now it seems this is proved.******
          > >
          > > Apart from decorations etc. one of the
          > > characteristics of this culture
          > > are the way in which bodies were placed in the
          > > graves. Thus, one way
          > > was to place them on their face. This influx of East
          > > Germanic people
          > > may have been significant in the Thuringian
          > > ethnogenesis. The
          > > Thuringians are first mentioned in 400AD. From the
          > > 420s/30s actual
          > > conflict with Huns is demonstrated by the grave
          > > material in Thuringia.
          > > Burials of the Niemberger Gruppe show frequent
          > > battle wounds including
          > > nomadic arrowheads in the wounds. From 430AD the
          > > area came under
          > > Hunnic domination, with nomadic weaponry and
          > > decorations appearing in
          > > rich graves. Also, the custom of artificial skull
          > > deformations becomes
          > > very widespread in Thuringia. Some 50% of the
          > > artificially deformed
          > > skull show 'mongolic' features. The dating was made
          > > possible by the
          > > discovery of a 20-year old Germanic woman, who died
          > > in about 450AD and
          > > who's skull had been deformed in early childhood.
          > > The Hunnic influence
          > > starts to fade after the battle at the Nedao, but
          > > artificial skull
          > > deformations remain in custom until the first third
          > > of the 6th
          > > century.
          > >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
          > http://shopping.yahoo.com
        • Sahin Ahmet
          Thanks Dirk. ... artificial skull deformations ... Hi, artificial skull deformatation is a custom that originated in the Russian/Asian steppe and reached
          Message 4 of 28 , Dec 5, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            Thanks Dirk.
            faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@y..., Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Dirk,
            > What does this mean would you explain? " the custom of
            artificial skull deformations"
            > first time I heard of such a custom.



            Hi,

            artificial skull deformatation is a custom that originated in the
            Russian/Asian steppe and reached Europe during the perod of the great
            Migration (378AD-568AD). Skull deformation involved binding the skull
            of an infant in such a way as to elongate the shape of the skull. The
            practice was adopted by some Germanic people who were under
            particularly strong influence from the Huns.

            cheers
            Dirk




            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


            You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.

            Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



            ---------------------------------
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Bertil Haggman
            Troels, Thank you for your valuable contributions to a discussion that is full of irrelevancy in some cases. An important factor to be considered when
            Message 5 of 28 , Dec 5, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Troels,

              Thank you for your valuable contributions to a discussion
              that is full of irrelevancy in some cases. An important factor
              to be considered when discussing the relation between the
              Eruli and Scandinavia is no doubt the relation of Procppius
              of a characteristic custom of the Eruli (Bell. Goth. II, 14). When
              aged people became decripit, they themselves claimed the right to
              be killed. Relatives placed the victim on a high pile of
              firewood, and he was executed by dagger. Later the
              pile was set on fire.

              Such a custom existed in Smaaland Province (Vaerend district).
              There it was the local custom to kill aged people by means
              of a club. The killing of the aged is also known from many other
              parts of Gautland. One custom was to throw oneself down from
              a high rock (aetternistapi), 'the family rock' (see Gautrek's Saga).
              This custom also existed in South Jutland (a steep cliff, the so-called
              Endrupskov Aftaegt). I think this type of custom is one of the most clear
              ways of connecting the Eruli with Scandinavia.

              There has also been a few articles on the Eruli language being
              reflected in the Blekinge dialect (see bibliographic note under-
              neath).

              A few additional words on the Erulic names:

              Alvith = 'All-wood', 'sanctuary-wood' (?)
              Fara = the element -far is Burgundian, Lombard, or Anglian, but
              above all East Danish.

              Fulkaris = Old High German Folch-heri (?). Note the Danish
              geographical name Fulcarslef on the island of Falster.

              Hariso = occurs on a clasp found at Himlingøje on the
              Danish island of Zealand. Note Old Norse hersir = 'sheriff'.

              (H)aruth = compare Jutlandic people name Harudes and
              Norwegian Hordhar. The original Erulic form seems to be

              (H)aordos (see Procopius, who uses the version Aordos three times).

              (H)rodvulf = 'honour-wolf' (similar names exist in Denmark and Norway).
              The popularity of the name Rudolph in Germany might go back to the
              high status of this Erulic personal name. The element 'hrodh' of early
              kings and priests in Norway, Denmark, and in East Anglian and Jutish
              dynasties.

              The Eruli probably settled in the province of Blekinge, mainly on the Lister
              Peninsula. Basis for that assumption has been several runestones found
              in the area: Stentoften, Gummarp, Istaby, and Sölvesborg. Especially
              the Stentoften stone contains an inscription that has been interpreted
              as relating to immigrants:

              "The settlers,
              the newcomers
              gave Hathuwolf gifts,
              poured riches over Hariwolf."

              On the Gummarp stone Hathuvolf is also mentioned
              and the Istaby stone contains in addition to Hathuwolf
              and Hariwolf also Haeruvolf. So in fact we are probably
              dealing with names of three Erulic kings on the Lister
              Peninsula.

              Naturally there is speculation of a connection between Hathuvolf,
              Harivolf and the well-known name of the Erulian King Hrodvulf
              (Rodolfus or Rodulfus), the rex Herulorum mentioned by both
              Procopius in History of the Wars, Chapter 14:11-21 and Paulus
              Diaconus in Historia Langobardorum, Chapter 20. According
              to Procopius Hrodvulf was killed 505 A.D.

              The Lister Peninsula on the border between Blekinge and
              Scania is regarded as a natural choice for immigrants to
              settle. It is strategically situated for trading and sailing and
              its hinterland Värend was suitable for agriculture. The
              peninsula is close both to the rich Scania, to Blekinge and
              the island of Bornholm.

              Bibliographic notes

              Jareborg, Nils, "Det heruliska arvet: Till frågan om Blekingemålens
              hemlighet." (35 års utredande: en vänbok till Erland Aspelin. 1996
              DUS 1996:1, s. 167-183.)

              Jareborg, Nils, "Gamla och nya heruler." (Blekingska Nationen
              1697-1997. Utg. av Johan Svensson, 1997, s. 83-89.)

              Nils Jareborg, born 1938, is Professor of Criminal Law
              at Uppsala University and since 2001 Corresponding
              Fellow of the British Academy.

              Erulically

              Bertil


              > We do not know the characteristics of the Heruls and until now I have
              > not found any archaeologist investigating that problem related to
              > Scandinavia. Most of the Scandinavian scholars covering that period
              > have analyzed the connections to Western Europe (Franks, Lombards and
              > Alamans) but very seldom the connections to the former Czeckoslovakia.
            • george knysh
              ... Do you know which tribes are seen as the ... Hello Dirk, Soviet and Ukrainian archaeologists have demonstrated the possibility of distinguishing sub-groups
              Message 6 of 28 , Dec 5, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                --- faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:
                Do you know which tribes are seen as the
                > carriers of the Western
                > Chernyakhovsk and Sintana de Mures cultures in the
                > late 4th century?
                >
                > cheers,
                > Dirk

                Hello Dirk,
                Soviet and Ukrainian archaeologists have demonstrated
                the possibility of distinguishing sub-groups within
                Cherniakhiv, based on a variety of converging
                indicators: settlement types (esp. house types),
                burial rites (Chernyakhiv was comprehensively
                bi-ritual [inhumation/cremation] but there are many
                different kinds of cremation and inhumation rituals),
                jewellery, et sim. Without going into great details,
                one interesting conclusion was reached: the Slavic
                culture which emerges there in the post-Attila period
                has no close genetic links to earlier Chernyakhiv
                sites which were plausibly identified as
                Gotho-Gepidic, Sarmato-Alanic, Scytho-Sarmatian, and
                Daco-Getic, only to Slavic sites, and to Slavic and
                Baltic cultures further north. The populations which
                trekked out in the wake of the Hunnic onslaught were
                thus predominantly Gothic,Alanic,Scythian, and Dacian.
                I would have to look at the article you mentioned to
                see if there is information there which might
                correlate with Soviet and Ukrainian findings and allow
                us to hypothesize about the early "tribal" composition
                of the Chernyakhiv migrants to Germany. I suspect that
                whatever that may have been, the process of
                Germanization would have proceeded fairly swiftly, as
                did the process of Slavization with the Goths of
                Reithgotaland. *****

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping.
                http://shopping.yahoo.com
              • troels_brandt
                Bertil Thank you. As you can se in my previous mail I have used your information. A year ago I totally disagreed with you regarding Blekinge, and I still do
                Message 7 of 28 , Dec 5, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  Bertil

                  Thank you. As you can se in my previous mail I have used your
                  information.

                  A year ago I totally disagreed with you regarding Blekinge, and I
                  still do regarding some of your arguments below. However the
                  archaeological remains indicate in my opinion an Eastgermanic
                  presence in Scania/Blekinge in the 5th century, which might be due to
                  Heruls. Soesdala is an example, but I am also willing to accept
                  Vaerend. If Jordanes mentioned an event from the 5th or 6th century,
                  these were probably the Heruls expelled by the Danes. These are
                  earlier than the Heruls of Procopius, but the Heruls of Procopius may
                  have heard about the possibilities from their kinsmen in Scandinavia
                  when they started their travel. I still believe that the maingroup
                  found a place north of Gautoi.

                  Troels


                  --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                  > Troels,
                  >
                  > Thank you for your valuable contributions to a discussion
                  > that is full of irrelevancy in some cases. An important factor
                  > to be considered when discussing the relation between the
                  > Eruli and Scandinavia is no doubt the relation of Procppius
                  > of a characteristic custom of the Eruli (Bell. Goth. II, 14). When
                  > aged people became decripit, they themselves claimed the right to
                  > be killed. Relatives placed the victim on a high pile of
                  > firewood, and he was executed by dagger. Later the
                  > pile was set on fire.
                  >
                  > Such a custom existed in Smaaland Province (Vaerend district).
                  > There it was the local custom to kill aged people by means
                  > of a club. The killing of the aged is also known from many other
                  > parts of Gautland. One custom was to throw oneself down from
                  > a high rock (aetternistapi), 'the family rock' (see Gautrek's Saga).
                  > This custom also existed in South Jutland (a steep cliff, the so-
                  called
                  > Endrupskov Aftaegt). I think this type of custom is one of the most
                  clear
                  > ways of connecting the Eruli with Scandinavia.
                  >
                  > There has also been a few articles on the Eruli language being
                  > reflected in the Blekinge dialect (see bibliographic note under-
                  > neath).
                  >
                  > A few additional words on the Erulic names:
                  >
                  > Alvith = 'All-wood', 'sanctuary-wood' (?)
                  > Fara = the element -far is Burgundian, Lombard, or Anglian, but
                  > above all East Danish.
                  >
                  > Fulkaris = Old High German Folch-heri (?). Note the Danish
                  > geographical name Fulcarslef on the island of Falster.
                  >
                  > Hariso = occurs on a clasp found at Himlingøje on the
                  > Danish island of Zealand. Note Old Norse hersir = 'sheriff'.
                  >
                  > (H)aruth = compare Jutlandic people name Harudes and
                  > Norwegian Hordhar. The original Erulic form seems to be
                  >
                  > (H)aordos (see Procopius, who uses the version Aordos three times).
                  >
                  > (H)rodvulf = 'honour-wolf' (similar names exist in Denmark and
                  Norway).
                  > The popularity of the name Rudolph in Germany might go back to the
                  > high status of this Erulic personal name. The element 'hrodh' of
                  early
                  > kings and priests in Norway, Denmark, and in East Anglian and
                  Jutish
                  > dynasties.
                  >
                  > The Eruli probably settled in the province of Blekinge, mainly on
                  the Lister
                  > Peninsula. Basis for that assumption has been several runestones
                  found
                  > in the area: Stentoften, Gummarp, Istaby, and Sölvesborg.
                  Especially
                  > the Stentoften stone contains an inscription that has been
                  interpreted
                  > as relating to immigrants:
                  >
                  > "The settlers,
                  > the newcomers
                  > gave Hathuwolf gifts,
                  > poured riches over Hariwolf."
                  >
                  > On the Gummarp stone Hathuvolf is also mentioned
                  > and the Istaby stone contains in addition to Hathuwolf
                  > and Hariwolf also Haeruvolf. So in fact we are probably
                  > dealing with names of three Erulic kings on the Lister
                  > Peninsula.
                  >
                  > Naturally there is speculation of a connection between Hathuvolf,
                  > Harivolf and the well-known name of the Erulian King Hrodvulf
                  > (Rodolfus or Rodulfus), the rex Herulorum mentioned by both
                  > Procopius in History of the Wars, Chapter 14:11-21 and Paulus
                  > Diaconus in Historia Langobardorum, Chapter 20. According
                  > to Procopius Hrodvulf was killed 505 A.D.
                  >
                  > The Lister Peninsula on the border between Blekinge and
                  > Scania is regarded as a natural choice for immigrants to
                  > settle. It is strategically situated for trading and sailing and
                  > its hinterland Värend was suitable for agriculture. The
                  > peninsula is close both to the rich Scania, to Blekinge and
                  > the island of Bornholm.
                  >
                  > Bibliographic notes
                  >
                  > Jareborg, Nils, "Det heruliska arvet: Till frågan om Blekingemålens
                  > hemlighet." (35 års utredande: en vänbok till Erland Aspelin. 1996
                  > DUS 1996:1, s. 167-183.)
                  >
                  > Jareborg, Nils, "Gamla och nya heruler." (Blekingska Nationen
                  > 1697-1997. Utg. av Johan Svensson, 1997, s. 83-89.)
                  >
                  > Nils Jareborg, born 1938, is Professor of Criminal Law
                  > at Uppsala University and since 2001 Corresponding
                  > Fellow of the British Academy.
                  >
                  > Erulically
                  >
                  > Bertil
                  >
                  >
                  > > We do not know the characteristics of the Heruls and until now I
                  have
                  > > not found any archaeologist investigating that problem related to
                  > > Scandinavia. Most of the Scandinavian scholars covering that
                  period
                  > > have analyzed the connections to Western Europe (Franks, Lombards
                  and
                  > > Alamans) but very seldom the connections to the former
                  Czeckoslovakia.
                • Tore Gannholm
                  ... I have a question to Bertil in this case. I stumbled on some information about the Blekinge runes. I got the impression that they are of the older 24
                  Message 8 of 28 , Dec 5, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    >Bertil
                    >
                    >Thank you. As you can se in my previous mail I have used your
                    >information.
                    >
                    >A year ago I totally disagreed with you regarding Blekinge, and I
                    >still do regarding some of your arguments below. However the
                    >archaeological remains indicate in my opinion an Eastgermanic
                    >presence in Scania/Blekinge in the 5th century, which might be due to
                    >Heruls. Soesdala is an example, but I am also willing to accept
                    >Vaerend. If Jordanes mentioned an event from the 5th or 6th century,
                    >these were probably the Heruls expelled by the Danes. These are
                    >earlier than the Heruls of Procopius, but the Heruls of Procopius may
                    >have heard about the possibilities from their kinsmen in Scandinavia
                    >when they started their travel. I still believe that the maingroup
                    >found a place north of Gautoi.
                    >
                    >Troels

                    I have a question to Bertil in this case.
                    I stumbled on some information about the Blekinge runes. I got the
                    impression that they are of the older 24 caracter alfabet and not the new
                    16 caracter alfabet that Prokopius Heruls probably brought with them.
                    Perhaps you have some more information about this.
                    Tore
                  • faltin2001
                    ... Hello George, that it interesting, I thought that acutual settlements have been found only very rarely. ... This is exactly right. This bi-ritualism is
                    Message 9 of 28 , Dec 6, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In gothic-l@y..., george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > --- faltin2001 <dirk@s...> wrote:
                      > Do you know which tribes are seen as the
                      > > carriers of the Western
                      > > Chernyakhovsk and Sintana de Mures cultures in the
                      > > late 4th century?
                      > >
                      > > cheers,
                      > > Dirk
                      >
                      > Hello Dirk,
                      > Soviet and Ukrainian archaeologists have demonstrated
                      > the possibility of distinguishing sub-groups within
                      > Cherniakhiv, based on a variety of converging
                      > indicators: settlement types (esp. house types),


                      Hello George,

                      that it interesting, I thought that acutual settlements have been
                      found only very rarely.




                      > burial rites (Chernyakhiv was comprehensively
                      > bi-ritual [inhumation/cremation] but there are many
                      > different kinds of cremation and inhumation rituals),


                      This is exactly right. This bi-ritualism is also observable in the
                      Niemberger and Grossbadegaster Gruppe in middle Germany. Have you
                      heard anything about this custom of placing the dead on their face in
                      the grave and other 'unusual' positions.




                      > jewellery, et sim. Without going into great details,
                      > one interesting conclusion was reached: the Slavic
                      > culture which emerges there in the post-Attila period
                      > has no close genetic links to earlier Chernyakhiv
                      > sites which were plausibly identified as
                      > Gotho-Gepidic, Sarmato-Alanic, Scytho-Sarmatian, and
                      > Daco-Getic, only to Slavic sites, and to Slavic and
                      > Baltic cultures further north. The populations which
                      > trekked out in the wake of the Hunnic onslaught were
                      > thus predominantly Gothic,Alanic,Scythian, and Dacian.
                      > I would have to look at the article you mentioned to
                      > see if there is information there which might
                      > correlate with Soviet and Ukrainian findings and allow
                      > us to hypothesize about the early "tribal" composition
                      > of the Chernyakhiv migrants to Germany.

                      Schmidt provides drawings of graves and grave goods. As archaeologist
                      he tends to avoid historical ethnic names, but only suggests that the
                      main carrier of these cultures (West Chernyakovsk and Sintana de
                      Mures) were East-Germanic people. His time-frame is the last quarter
                      of the 4th century. He stated that their movement to middle Germany
                      can be traced via a number of important burial sites in Silesia, but
                      he does not give a more deliminated area of 'origin'.

                      cheers
                      Dirk
                    • einarbirg
                      ... called ... clear ... Einar, Hæ Bertil. Thanks for a very interesting information. You mention here the word; aetternisstapi. That word is the same in
                      Message 10 of 28 , Dec 6, 2001
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                        > Troels,
                        >
                        > Thank you for your valuable contributions to a discussion
                        > that is full of irrelevancy in some cases. An important factor
                        > to be considered when discussing the relation between the
                        > Eruli and Scandinavia is no doubt the relation of Procppius
                        > of a characteristic custom of the Eruli (Bell. Goth. II, 14). When
                        > aged people became decripit, they themselves claimed the right to
                        > be killed. Relatives placed the victim on a high pile of
                        > firewood, and he was executed by dagger. Later the
                        > pile was set on fire.
                        >
                        > Such a custom existed in Smaaland Province (Vaerend district).
                        > There it was the local custom to kill aged people by means
                        > of a club. The killing of the aged is also known from many other
                        > parts of Gautland. One custom was to throw oneself down from
                        > a high rock (aetternistapi), 'the family rock' (see Gautrek's Saga).
                        > This custom also existed in South Jutland (a steep cliff, the so-
                        called
                        > Endrupskov Aftaegt). I think this type of custom is one of the most
                        clear
                        > ways of connecting the Eruli with Scandinavia.

                        Einar, Hæ Bertil.

                        Thanks for a very interesting information.

                        You mention here the word; aetternisstapi. That word is the same in
                        modern Icelandic; ætternisstapi. And is very easily understandable.

                        From the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook(I.E.W)
                        Actually ´ætt´ does not mean ´family´. It means;
                        ´kyn,frændlið,ættbálkur´. Kyn means; kin,kindred,extraction.
                        Frændlið means; your relatives in general. Ættbálkur means;
                        clan,tribe.
                        In gothic; ´aihts´ means something you own(that is your property) and
                        in Old Irish; ´icht´ meaning; tribe,clan.

                        This ´erni´ has no meaning. It is a suffix. Very commonly used in
                        Icelandic. Like; bróðerni,faðerni etc.

                        ´stapi´ means many things. Like; cliff,rock(usually flat on the
                        top),small mountain(flat on the top). Very much used in place names
                        in Iceland.
                        In Old High German; ´stuof(f)a´.

                        They say here in one book that ´ætternisstapi´ was a rock,cliff
                        situated on the border of a lake or sea! and there people commited
                        suicide.
                        In Gautrek´s Saga they say; ´ganga fyrir ætternisstapa´ which means
                        to die or commit suicide. The same phrase,saying, is used today in
                        modern Icelandic. This ´ganga fyrir´ indicates that people were
                        committing suicide. They were not killed but committed suicide by
                        throwing themselves down a cliff.

                        So we,modern Icelanders seem to be still using the same phrase,saying
                        as the Heruli might have.

                        >
                        > There has also been a few articles on the Eruli language being
                        > reflected in the Blekinge dialect (see bibliographic note under-
                        > neath).

                        Einar; Very interesting. I have to take a look.
                        >
                        > A few additional words on the Erulic names:
                        >
                        > Alvith = 'All-wood', 'sanctuary-wood' (?)

                        Einar, Why not ´alvitur´?? It means; the wise man,the
                        knowledgeable person,the person who knows everything. Well, it means
                        the same in modern Icelandic.
                        I think it was one of the names used for Óðinn.That is one of his
                        names.

                        > Fara = the element -far is Burgundian, Lombard, or Anglian, but
                        > above all East Danish.
                        >
                        > Fulkaris = Old High German Folch-heri (?). Note the Danish
                        > geographical name Fulcarslef on the island of Falster.
                        >
                        > Hariso = occurs on a clasp found at Himlingøje on the
                        > Danish island of Zealand. Note Old Norse hersir = 'sheriff'.

                        Einar; I think that ´hersir´ means; ´höfðingji´(not sheriff). That
                        is; chief,headman of a tribe,clan etc,chieftain.
                        Same as; *harisja-; that is the Herulic name ´Hariso´. A woman´s name
                        in Old Norse is; ´Hariso´

                        A related word is; ´hersing´ meaning, ´group,many people´ Somekind of
                        a army, seems to me. Not used today but I understand it.

                        ´herjan´ is a wolfsname. (according to E.A.Kock 1933). Likely from
                        ´herja´ and ´her´. ´her´ means; army,group of figthers.
                        ´Herjan´ is one of the names used for Óðinn. Comes from
                        ´her´,<*harjanar, that is ´þjóðann,þjóð´ and is a word used for
                        descriping the person ruling a army,group of figthers.

                        I have this from the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook.


                        >
                        > (H)aruth = compare Jutlandic people name Harudes and
                        > Norwegian Hordhar. The original Erulic form seems to be
                        >
                        > (H)aordos (see Procopius, who uses the version Aordos three times).

                        Einar; The name ´(H)aordos´ is the Icelandic name ´Hörður´ that is
                        very commonly used today. A man´s name.
                        From I.E.W.; Could be from Gotish ´hardus´ but is more likely
                        connected to ´Hörðar´ . As an example they take here a Old Swedish
                        rune inscription ´Haruþs´(man´s name).

                        And ´Hörðar´ are the people of ´Hörðaland,Hordaland´ in Norway. The
                        origin of the word is not known. Could be, like in Old English
                        ´harað,hared´ which means ´forest´ . Could be from Old Irish;
                        ´caur,cur´ meaning ´hero´. The origin is debated.

                        >
                        > (H)rodvulf = 'honour-wolf' (similar names exist in Denmark and
                        Norway).

                        Einar: Lot´s of names in Iceland have this ´hróður´ in a name.
                        Like; Hróðmar,Hrólfur,Hróðmundur and Hrólfdís(woman´s name).
                        The word ´Rudolf´ is two words; ´hróður´and ´wulf´ .
                        In Old High German; ´Hrodulf,Hruodolf´. Of course put together from
                        the words; ´Hroth´ and ´wolf´.(from Old High German).That is put
                        together from; ´hróður´and ´úlfur´(Icelandic).
                        The Icelandic name ´Hrólfur´ is the same word as ´Hruodwulf,Hrodulf´
                        (from Old High German) from ´hróður´ and ´úlfur´. The name
                        ´Hrólfur´means; ´famous wolf´

                        I do not agree that ´hróður´ means ´honor´. And that is not the
                        meaning in modern Icelandic.
                        According to I.E.W then ´hróður´ means;
                        ´frægð,orðstír,kveðskapur,kvæði´. Frægð is; fame,glory. Orðstír
                        means; fame,reputation,celebrity and more. Kveðskapur means;
                        Skaldship,poetry. Kvæði means;poem,verse,song.

                        In gothic ´hroþeigs´. Meaning ´sigursæll,frægur´. Sigursæll means
                        that he wins many battles. Frægur means; famous.
                        In Old Sax.´hroð´ meaning ´fame,glory´.

                        So here you have evidence that some Herulic names were connected to
                        poetry and Skaldship. Is that not very good! I find it good at least.

                        And the Icelandic word ´hróðugur´ is connected to the Gotish word
                        ´hroþeigs´ which means ´sigursæll´ (see above)


                        Bless,bless. Einar.

                        > The popularity of the name Rudolph in Germany might go back to the
                        > high status of this Erulic personal name. The element 'hrodh' of
                        early
                        > kings and priests in Norway, Denmark, and in East Anglian and
                        Jutish
                        > dynasties.
                        >
                        > The Eruli probably settled in the province of Blekinge, mainly on
                        the Lister
                        > Peninsula. Basis for that assumption has been several runestones
                        found
                        > in the area: Stentoften, Gummarp, Istaby, and Sölvesborg.
                        Especially
                        > the Stentoften stone contains an inscription that has been
                        interpreted
                        > as relating to immigrants:
                        >
                        > "The settlers,
                        > the newcomers
                        > gave Hathuwolf gifts,
                        > poured riches over Hariwolf."
                        >
                        > On the Gummarp stone Hathuvolf is also mentioned
                        > and the Istaby stone contains in addition to Hathuwolf
                        > and Hariwolf also Haeruvolf. So in fact we are probably
                        > dealing with names of three Erulic kings on the Lister
                        > Peninsula.
                        >
                        > Naturally there is speculation of a connection between Hathuvolf,
                        > Harivolf and the well-known name of the Erulian King Hrodvulf
                        > (Rodolfus or Rodulfus), the rex Herulorum mentioned by both
                        > Procopius in History of the Wars, Chapter 14:11-21 and Paulus
                        > Diaconus in Historia Langobardorum, Chapter 20. According
                        > to Procopius Hrodvulf was killed 505 A.D.
                        >
                        > The Lister Peninsula on the border between Blekinge and
                        > Scania is regarded as a natural choice for immigrants to
                        > settle. It is strategically situated for trading and sailing and
                        > its hinterland Värend was suitable for agriculture. The
                        > peninsula is close both to the rich Scania, to Blekinge and
                        > the island of Bornholm.
                        >
                        > Bibliographic notes
                        >
                        > Jareborg, Nils, "Det heruliska arvet: Till frågan om Blekingemålens
                        > hemlighet." (35 års utredande: en vänbok till Erland Aspelin. 1996
                        > DUS 1996:1, s. 167-183.)
                        >
                        > Jareborg, Nils, "Gamla och nya heruler." (Blekingska Nationen
                        > 1697-1997. Utg. av Johan Svensson, 1997, s. 83-89.)
                        >
                        > Nils Jareborg, born 1938, is Professor of Criminal Law
                        > at Uppsala University and since 2001 Corresponding
                        > Fellow of the British Academy.
                        >
                        > Erulically
                        >
                        > Bertil
                        >
                        >
                      • einarbirg
                        ... is ... Einar, Hæ. Correction; I mean of course Gothic but not Gotish(above) ... least. ... Correction; Should be Gothic not Gotish.(above) Bless,bless,
                        Message 11 of 28 , Dec 6, 2001
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In gothic-l@y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg@y...> wrote:
                          > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > Einar; The name ´(H)aordos´ is the Icelandic name ´Hörður´ that
                          is
                          > very commonly used today. A man´s name.
                          > From I.E.W.; Could be from Gotish ´hardus´ but is more likely
                          > connected to ´Hörðar´ . As an example they take here a Old Swedish
                          > rune inscription ´Haruþs´(man´s name).

                          Einar, Hæ.

                          Correction; I mean of course Gothic but not Gotish(above)
                          >
                          > And ´Hörðar´ are the
                          > So here you have evidence that some Herulic names were connected to
                          > poetry and Skaldship. Is that not very good! I find it good at
                          least.
                          >
                          > And the Icelandic word ´hróðugur´ is connected to the Gotish word
                          > ´hroþeigs´ which means ´sigursæll´ (see above)

                          Correction; Should be Gothic not Gotish.(above)

                          Bless,bless, Einar.
                          >
                          >
                        • Bertil Haggman
                          Einar, Glad you found the info of value. It is fascinating that modern Icelandic has the same word. But the original is not Erulic, as far as I understand. In
                          Message 12 of 28 , Dec 6, 2001
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Einar,

                            Glad you found the info of value. It is fascinating
                            that modern Icelandic has the same word. But
                            the original is not Erulic, as far as I understand.
                            In modern Swedish the word is aettestupa. The word
                            was possibly constructed in the 17th century and has
                            a connection to Smaaland. Stupa means 'steep
                            place' and stup is a common Swedish name related
                            to the verb stupa 'fall down from exhaustion'.

                            On Alvith, that is just one possibility I mentioned, so
                            your alternatives might well be more likely. The same goes
                            for Hariso where many other meanings come to light.
                            On Hordar we can go back to Iordanes' Aroch = *(h)aruthi,
                            who possibly lived in Hordaland on the Stavanger Fiord.

                            On Hrordwulf you have Germanic hrod which means
                            fame, glory, honour, in my opinion a most likely
                            connection.

                            Erulically

                            Bertil





                            Thanks for a very interesting information.

                            You mention here the word; aetternisstapi. That word is the same in
                            modern Icelandic; ætternisstapi. And is very easily understandable.

                            From the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook(I.E.W)
                            Actually ´ætt´ does not mean ´family´. It means;
                            ´kyn,frændlið,ættbálkur´. Kyn means; kin,kindred,extraction.
                            Frændlið means; your relatives in general. Ættbálkur means;
                            clan,tribe.
                            In gothic; ´aihts´ means something you own(that is your property) and
                            in Old Irish; ´icht´ meaning; tribe,clan.

                            This ´erni´ has no meaning. It is a suffix. Very commonly used in
                            Icelandic. Like; bróðerni,faðerni etc.

                            ´stapi´ means many things. Like; cliff,rock(usually flat on the
                            top),small mountain(flat on the top). Very much used in place names
                            in Iceland.
                            In Old High German; ´stuof(f)a´.

                            Why not ´alvitur´?? It means; the wise man,the
                            knowledgeable person,the person who knows everything. Well, it means
                            the same in modern Icelandic.
                            I think it was one of the names used for Óðinn.That is one of his
                            names.

                            I think that ´hersir´ means; ´höfðingji´(not sheriff). That
                            is; chief,headman of a tribe,clan etc,chieftain.
                            Same as; *harisja-; that is the Herulic name ´Hariso´. A woman´s name
                            in Old Norse is; ´Hariso´

                            A related word is; ´hersing´ meaning, ´group,many people´ Somekind of
                            a army, seems to me. Not used today but I understand it.

                            ´herjan´ is a wolfsname. (according to E.A.Kock 1933). Likely from
                            ´herja´ and ´her´. ´her´ means; army,group of figthers.
                            ´Herjan´ is one of the names used for Óðinn. Comes from
                            ´her´,<*harjanar, that is ´þjóðann,þjóð´ and is a word used for
                            descriping the person ruling a army,group of figthers.

                            I have this from the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook.


                            The name ´(H)aordos´ is the Icelandic name ´Hörður´ that is
                            very commonly used today. A man´s name.
                            From I.E.W.; Could be from Gotish ´hardus´ but is more likely
                            connected to ´Hörðar´ . As an example they take here a Old Swedish
                            rune inscription ´Haruþs´(man´s name).

                            And ´Hörðar´ are the people of ´Hörðaland,Hordaland´ in Norway. The
                            origin of the word is not known. Could be, like in Old English
                            ´harað,hared´ which means ´forest´ . Could be from Old Irish;
                            ´caur,cur´ meaning ´hero´. The origin is debated.

                            >
                            > (H)rodvulf = 'honour-wolf' (similar names exist in Denmark and
                            Norway).

                            Einar: Lot´s of names in Iceland have this ´hróður´ in a name.
                            Like; Hróðmar,Hrólfur,Hróðmundur and Hrólfdís(woman´s name).
                            The word ´Rudolf´ is two words; ´hróður´and ´wulf´ .
                            In Old High German; ´Hrodulf,Hruodolf´. Of course put together from
                            the words; ´Hroth´ and ´wolf´.(from Old High German).That is put
                            together from; ´hróður´and ´úlfur´(Icelandic).
                            The Icelandic name ´Hrólfur´ is the same word as ´Hruodwulf,Hrodulf´
                            (from Old High German) from ´hróður´ and ´úlfur´. The name
                            ´Hrólfur´means; ´famous wolf´

                            I do not agree that ´hróður´ means ´honor´. And that is not the
                            meaning in modern Icelandic.
                            According to I.E.W then ´hróður´ means;
                            ´frægð,orðstír,kveðskapur,kvæði´. Frægð is; fame,glory. Orðstír
                            means; fame,reputation,celebrity and more. Kveðskapur means;
                            Skaldship,poetry. Kvæði means;poem,verse,song.

                            In gothic ´hroþeigs´. Meaning ´sigursæll,frægur´. Sigursæll means
                            that he wins many battles. Frægur means; famous.
                            In Old Sax.´hroð´ meaning ´fame,glory´.

                            So here you have evidence that some Herulic names were connected to
                            poetry and Skaldship. Is that not very good! I find it good at least.

                            And the Icelandic word ´hróðugur´ is connected to the Gotish word
                            ´hroþeigs´ which means ´sigursæll´ (see above)
                          • einarbirg
                            ... Einar; Hæ. One more correction. I say above; that is ´þjóð ann,þjóð´ etc. It should not be that is but confer (cf) compare. Bless,Bless, Einar
                            Message 13 of 28 , Dec 6, 2001
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In gothic-l@y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > ´herjan´ is a wolfsname. (according to E.A.Kock 1933). Likely from
                              > ´herja´ and ´her´. ´her´ means; army,group of figthers.
                              > ´Herjan´ is one of the names used for Óðinn. Comes from
                              > ´her´,<*harjanar, that is ´þjóðann,þjóð´ and is a word used for
                              > descriping the person ruling a army,group of figthers.
                              >
                              > I have this from the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook.
                              >
                              Einar; Hæ.

                              One more correction. I say above; that is ´þjóð'ann,þjóð´ etc.
                              It should not be "that is" but confer (cf) compare.

                              Bless,Bless, Einar
                            • einarbirg
                              ... Einar; Hæ Bertil. Thanks for your response. ... Einar; I do not think I claimed so. I said that Icelanders seem to be using the same phrase/sayings as
                              Message 14 of 28 , Dec 7, 2001
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                                >
                                Einar; Hæ Bertil. Thanks for your response.

                                > Einar,
                                >
                                > Glad you found the info of value. It is fascinating
                                > that modern Icelandic has the same word. But
                                > the original is not Erulic, as far as I understand.

                                Einar; I do not think I claimed so. I said that Icelanders seem to
                                be using the same phrase/sayings as the Heruli MIGHT have.
                                But I would never claim that the words are exactly the same.That is
                                written or pronounced in the same fashion.

                                So in your opinion. The origin of the word?

                                Usually they state in the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook if a word
                                is a relative newcomer or was not used in the earliest Icelandic
                                literature. They do not so here. I have a reason to belief that this
                                word "ætternisstapi" has been used in Iceland at least from pagan
                                times. Old legends seem to indicate that. And there are about 1000-
                                1100 years since this pagan period.
                                And how old is Gautrek´s Saga were this word is used.?

                                If this word seems to have been in use from the settlement of Iceland
                                then I see no reason to not seeing it as a possibility that this word
                                and the phrase ´ganga fyrir ætternisstapa´ could be much older.

                                That is used in Scandinavia or even more south at the time, groups of
                                Heruli moved to Scandinavia.
                                And the place name ´stapi´ is from the settlement period in Iceland.
                                And seems to have the same meaning now as then.


                                > In modern Swedish the word is aettestupa. The word
                                > was possibly constructed in the 17th century and has
                                > a connection to Smaaland. Stupa means 'steep
                                > place' and stup is a common Swedish name related
                                > to the verb stupa 'fall down from exhaustion'.

                                Einar, It can well be that this Swedish word is constructed in the
                                17th Century. This word has anyway nothing to do with
                                ´ætternisstapi´. At least not etymologically.
                                You say it your self that in Gautrek´s Saga the word there used is;
                                ´aetternisstapi´. That is the same word as the above mentioned
                                Icelandic one. And carries exactly the same meaning.

                                I see here in the I.E.W this word ´stupa´. It is the same word as in
                                Swedish ´stupa´.That is the same word with similar meaning , we have
                                in Icelandic.And it is a very old word in Icelandic. I see that the
                                Swedish meaning is as you claim.

                                The problem is that ´stapi´ and ´stupa´ are not etymologically
                                connected. These are totally different words,with different meanings.
                                Maybe the Swedish word ´aettestupa´ is constructed on the older word
                                ´ætternisstapi´. I do not know.
                                ´stapi´in Swedish seems not to be known! apart from in some Swedish
                                dialect as ´stäpu´ which means ´churchtower´.


                                > On Alvith, that is just one possibility I mentioned, so
                                > your alternatives might well be more likely. The same goes
                                > for Hariso where many other meanings come to light.
                                > On Hordar we can go back to Iordanes' Aroch = *(h)aruthi,
                                > who possibly lived in Hordaland on the Stavanger Fiord.
                                >
                                > On Hrordwulf you have Germanic hrod which means
                                > fame, glory, honour, in my opinion a most likely
                                > connection.

                                Einar; No it does not mean honor.But it can mean; fame and glory.
                                In Old English it meant honor(one of the meanings). It was written as
                                ´hreð´.

                                I think you are mixing together the Old High German word ´hrod,hruad´
                                that was used as a part in men´s names and the Old High German word
                                ´hruom´(´ruhm´ in New High German) which can mean ´honor´(but have
                                other meanings too).
                                They state it clearly that ´hrod,huad´ is related to ´hruom´ which
                                means ´hrós,heiður,hróp´.Hrós means; praise,compliment. Heiður means;
                                honor. Hróp means;loud call,yell,shouting.
                                These meanings are totally different from the meanings of ´hrod,hruad´
                                For translation of ´hrod,hruad´ (English). See my previous letter.

                                So you can not translate the ´hrod´ in ´hrodwulf´ as meaning ´honor´.
                                It is a wrong translation. You are mixing those two words(compared
                                together above) with different meanings together.

                                ´hrod´ in ´hrodwulf´ means ´frægð,orðstír;kveðskapur,kvæði´. I
                                translated that in my previous letter.
                                This ; in between orðstír and kveðskapur I do not know how to
                                interprete. I think I will have to have a specialits opinion on this
                                word. Can take some time.
                                Maybe it means that the fame,reputation of that person was somehow
                                connected to Skaldship and poetry.! But I do not know. I will try to
                                find out.

                                I think this is very interesting because here we see a connection
                                between Heruli names and the art of Skaldship.
                                The meaning of the word beeing discussed is not debated. Otherwise
                                they would state so.

                                Maybe this ´hróðr,hrod,hruod etc´ were used in names indicating that
                                the person´s family/kin had knowledge and practiced the art of
                                Skaldship. And this ´hróður´ was used too in womans names wich is
                                supportive of Barði Guðmundsson´s conclusions.
                                (In the book; Origin of the Icelanders)

                                At least the meaning of the word is; fame,glory,reputation and
                                somehow connected to Skaldship and poetry.That is can mean Skaldship
                                and poetry or indicates that the fame,reputation was connected to
                                knowledge of the art of Skaldship or poetry.

                                The meaning is; frægð,orðstír; kveðskapur,kvæði. That is documented
                                by the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook and stated without
                                reservations as beeing so. They seem always to state if a meaning of
                                a word is debated or the origin badly or not known.
                                And that is not done here.

                                So here we have a good argument for that some of the Heruli families
                                were/might have been connected to the art of Skaldship.
                                And that is one of Barði Guðmundsson conclusions.

                                Erulically, Einar.
                                >

                                > Erulically
                                >
                                > Bertil
                                >
                                >
                                > Thanks for a very interesting
                                information.
                                >
                                > You mention here the word; aetternisstapi. That word is the same in
                                > modern Icelandic; ætternisstapi. And is very easily
                                understandable.
                                >
                                > From the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook(I.E.W)
                                > Actually ´ætt´ does not mean ´family´. It means;
                                > ´kyn,frændlið,ættbálkur´. Kyn means;
                                kin,kindred,extraction.
                                > Frændlið means; your relatives in general. Ættbálkur means;
                                >
                                clan,tribe.
                                > In gothic; ´aihts´ means something you own(that is your property)
                                and
                                > in Old Irish; ´icht´ meaning; tribe,clan.
                                >
                                > This ´erni´ has no meaning. It is a suffix. Very commonly used in
                                > Icelandic. Like; bróðerni,faðerni etc.
                                >
                                > ´stapi´ means many things. Like; cliff,rock(usually flat on the
                                > top),small mountain(flat on the top). Very much used in place names
                                > in
                                Iceland.
                                > In Old High German; ´stuof(f)a´.
                                >
                                > Why not ´alvitur´?? It means; the wise man,the
                                > knowledgeable person,the person who knows everything. Well, it
                                means
                                > the same in modern Icelandic.
                                > I think it was one of the names used for Óðinn.That is one of his
                                > names.
                                >
                                > I think that ´hersir´ means; ´höfðingji´(not sheriff). That
                                > is; chief,headman of a tribe,clan etc,chieftain.
                                > Same as; *harisja-; that is the Herulic name ´Hariso´. A woman´s
                                name
                                > in Old Norse is; ´Hariso´
                                >
                                > A related word is; ´hersing´ meaning, ´group,many people´ Somekind
                                of
                                > a army, seems to me. Not used today but I understand it.
                                >
                                > ´herjan´ is a wolfsname. (according to E.A.Kock 1933). Likely from
                                > ´herja´ and ´her´. ´her´ means; army,group of figthers.
                                > ´Herjan´ is one of the names used for Óðinn. Comes from
                                > ´her´,<*harjanar, that is ´þjóðann,þjóð´ and is a word used for
                                > descriping the person ruling a army,group of figthers.
                                >
                                > I have this from the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook.
                                >
                                >
                                > The name ´(H)aordos´ is the Icelandic name ´Hörður´ that is
                                > very commonly used today. A man´s name.
                                > From I.E.W.; Could be from Gotish ´hardus´ but is more likely
                                > connected to ´Hörðar´ . As an example they take here a Old Swedish
                                > rune inscription ´Haruþs´(man´s name).
                                >
                                > And ´Hörðar´ are the people of ´Hörðaland,Hordaland´ in Norway. The
                                > origin of the word is not known. Could be, like in Old English
                                > ´harað,hared´ which means ´forest´ . Could be from Old Irish;
                                > ´caur,cur´ meaning ´hero´. The origin is debated.
                                >
                                > >
                                > > (H)rodvulf = 'honour-wolf' (similar names exist in Denmark and
                                > Norway).
                                >
                                > Einar: Lot´s of names in Iceland have this ´hróður´ in a name.
                                > Like; Hróðmar,Hrólfur,Hróðmundur and Hrólfdís(woman´s name).
                                > The word ´Rudolf´ is two words; ´hróður´and
                                ´wulf´ .
                                > In Old High German; ´Hrodulf,Hruodolf´. Of course put together from
                                > the words; ´Hroth´ and ´wolf´.(from Old High German).That is put
                                > together from; ´hróður´and ´úlfur´(Icelandic).
                                > The Icelandic name ´Hrólfur´ is the same word as ´Hruodwulf,Hrodulf´
                                > (from Old High German) from ´hróður´ and ´úlfur´. The name
                                > ´Hrólfur´means; ´famous wolf´
                                >
                                > I do not agree that ´hróður´ means ´honor´. And that is not the
                                > meaning in modern Icelandic.
                                > According to I.E.W then ´hróður´ means;
                                > ´frægð,orðstír,kveðskapur,kvæði´. Frægð is; fame,glory. Orðstír
                                > means; fame,reputation,celebrity and more. Kveðskapur means;
                                > Skaldship,poetry. Kvæði
                                means;poem,verse,song.
                                >
                                > In gothic ´hroþeigs´. Meaning ´sigursæll,frægur´. Sigursæll means
                                > that he wins many battles. Frægur means; famous.
                                > In Old Sax.´hroð´ meaning ´fame,glory´.
                                >
                                > So here you have evidence that some Herulic names were connected to
                                > poetry and Skaldship. Is that not very good! I find it good at
                                least.
                                >
                                > And the Icelandic word ´hróðugur´ is connected to the Gotish word
                                > ´hroþeigs´ which means ´sigursæll´ (see above)
                              • Bertil Haggman
                                Einar, Well, in that case, I have no objection. Concerning the Gautrek Saga it is a Westgoeta saga and was published in 1664 by Olof Verelius, a Swedish
                                Message 15 of 28 , Dec 7, 2001
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Einar,

                                  Well, in that case, I have no objection.

                                  Concerning the Gautrek Saga it is a Westgoeta saga
                                  and was published in 1664 by Olof Verelius, a Swedish historian.
                                  Gautrek was a Vaestergoetland king, father of the hero
                                  Rolf Gautreksson. There must in my opinion also be
                                  a connection between Gautrek - Gaut - Gautland.
                                  The Hrolfssaga Gautrekssonar is an Icelandic continuation
                                  from the 14th century, so the Gautrek Saga must be older
                                  than the 14th century, but I couldn't say how old.

                                  But in my opinion aettestupa has its origin in Gautrek's
                                  saga and the word might have entered Icelandic from
                                  the Vaestgoeta language.

                                  Concerning Hrod = honour, glory, fame I think
                                  the Swedish word 'aera' could mean different
                                  things in English.

                                  Think you are right concerning the connection of the
                                  Eruli in Scandinavia to Skaldship.

                                  Took a look at Ludwig Ruebekeil's _Suebica - Voelker-
                                  namen und Ethnos_ (1992). He wrote concerning the
                                  Eruli (my translation into English):

                                  "The Erulic group in the south did not only keep a feeling
                                  of origin but - and that is important - their ethnical connection
                                  to the north. As the ethnic center no doubt can be found in
                                  the north, there is a lack of a creation of a new kingdom as
                                  there is no legitimate base, as long as a representative
                                  of the ethnic origin does not give it legitimacy." (p. 117)

                                  Ruebekeil also compares with the Vikings and the Varjagi.
                                  In the case of the Vikings they were called Vikings without
                                  necessarily identifying their exact origin. A Viking could
                                  be Swedish, Danish or Norwegian. In the case of the Varjagi
                                  or the Rus no exact identification of the homeland has been
                                  made. According to Ruebekeil "die voelkerwanderungs-
                                  zeitlichen Heruler sind die Vorlaeufer der Wikinger
                                  in linearer Filiation". Thus Ruebekeil is identifying the Eruli
                                  as a sociological term, not an ethnological one. On the other
                                  hand he is above arguing for ethnicity. The Eruli only for
                                  a short period in the southeastern home stepped out of their
                                  sociorole and turned into an ethnos. This view has been expressed
                                  also in Swedish literature recently, but I cannot agree with this.
                                  The Eruli were most likely a people or tribe originating
                                  in Denmark, to which they could not return as they had been
                                  expelled by the Danes. Thus returning to Scandinavia they choose
                                  to settle near the Gautoi (the Goths who had remained in Gautland/
                                  Goetaland).

                                  Erulically

                                  Bertil





                                  I do not think I claimed so. I said that Icelanders seem to
                                  be using the same phrase/sayings as the Heruli MIGHT have.
                                  But I would never claim that the words are exactly the same.That is
                                  written or pronounced in the same fashion.

                                  So in your opinion. The origin of the word?

                                  And how old is Gautrek´s Saga were this word is used.?

                                  If this word seems to have been in use from the settlement of Iceland
                                  then I see no reason to not seeing it as a possibility that this word
                                  and the phrase ´ganga fyrir ætternisstapa´ could be much older.

                                  That is used in Scandinavia or even more south at the time, groups of
                                  Heruli moved to Scandinavia.
                                  And the place name ´stapi´ is from the settlement period in Iceland.
                                  And seems to have the same meaning now as then.


                                  It can well be that this Swedish word is constructed in the
                                  17th Century. This word has anyway nothing to do with
                                  ´ætternisstapi´. At least not etymologically.
                                  You say it your self that in Gautrek´s Saga the word there used is;
                                  ´aetternisstapi´. That is the same word as the above mentioned
                                  Icelandic one. And carries exactly the same meaning.

                                  I see here in the I.E.W this word ´stupa´. It is the same word as in
                                  Swedish ´stupa´.That is the same word with similar meaning , we have
                                  in Icelandic.And it is a very old word in Icelandic. I see that the
                                  Swedish meaning is as you claim.

                                  The problem is that ´stapi´ and ´stupa´ are not etymologically
                                  connected. These are totally different words,with different meanings.
                                  Maybe the Swedish word ´aettestupa´ is constructed on the older word
                                  ´ætternisstapi´. I do not know.
                                  ´stapi´in Swedish seems not to be known! apart from in some Swedish
                                  dialect as ´stäpu´ which means ´churchtower´.

                                  No it does not mean honor.But it can mean; fame and glory.
                                  In Old English it meant honor(one of the meanings). It was written as
                                  ´hreð´.

                                  I think you are mixing together the Old High German word ´hrod,hruad´
                                  that was used as a part in men´s names and the Old High German word
                                  ´hruom´(´ruhm´ in New High German) which can mean ´honor´(but have
                                  other meanings too).
                                  They state it clearly that ´hrod,huad´ is related to ´hruom´ which
                                  means ´hrós,heiður,hróp´.Hrós means; praise,compliment. Heiður means;
                                  honor. Hróp means;loud call,yell,shouting.
                                  These meanings are totally different from the meanings of ´hrod,hruad´
                                  For translation of ´hrod,hruad´ (English). See my previous letter.

                                  So you can not translate the ´hrod´ in ´hrodwulf´ as meaning ´honor´.
                                  It is a wrong translation. You are mixing those two words(compared
                                  together above) with different meanings together.

                                  ´hrod´ in ´hrodwulf´ means ´frægð,orðstír;kveðskapur,kvæði´. I
                                  translated that in my previous letter.
                                  This ; in between orðstír and kveðskapur I do not know how to
                                  interprete. I think I will have to have a specialits opinion on this
                                  word. Can take some time.
                                  Maybe it means that the fame,reputation of that person was somehow
                                  connected to Skaldship and poetry.! But I do not know. I will try to
                                  find out.

                                  I think this is very interesting because here we see a connection
                                  between Heruli names and the art of Skaldship.
                                  The meaning of the word beeing discussed is not debated. Otherwise
                                  they would state so.

                                  Maybe this ´hróðr,hrod,hruod etc´ were used in names indicating that
                                  the person´s family/kin had knowledge and practiced the art of
                                  Skaldship. And this ´hróður´ was used too in womans names wich is
                                  supportive of Barði Guðmundsson´s conclusions.
                                  (In the book; Origin of the Icelanders)

                                  At least the meaning of the word is; fame,glory,reputation and
                                  somehow connected to Skaldship and poetry.That is can mean Skaldship
                                  and poetry or indicates that the fame,reputation was connected to
                                  knowledge of the art of Skaldship or poetry.

                                  The meaning is; frægð,orðstír; kveðskapur,kvæði. That is documented
                                  by the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook and stated without
                                  reservations as beeing so. They seem always to state if a meaning of
                                  a word is debated or the origin badly or not known.
                                  And that is not done here.

                                  So here we have a good argument for that some of the Heruli families
                                  were/might have been connected to the art of Skaldship.
                                  And that is one of Barði Guðmundsson conclusions.
                                • einarbirg
                                  ... Einar, Hæ Bertil. Thanks for your very interesting info. I will later try to find out when this word ´ætternisstapi´ turned up in Ice.literature. ...
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Dec 8, 2001
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                                    > Einar,
                                    >
                                    > Well, in that case, I have no objection.
                                    >
                                    > Concerning the Gautrek Saga it is a Westgoeta saga
                                    > and was published in 1664 by Olof Verelius, a Swedish historian.
                                    > Gautrek was a Vaestergoetland king, father of the hero
                                    > Rolf Gautreksson. There must in my opinion also be
                                    > a connection between Gautrek - Gaut - Gautland.
                                    > The Hrolfssaga Gautrekssonar is an Icelandic continuation
                                    > from the 14th century, so the Gautrek Saga must be older
                                    > than the 14th century, but I couldn't say how old.

                                    Einar, Hæ Bertil. Thanks for your very interesting info. I will
                                    later try to find out when this word ´ætternisstapi´ turned up in
                                    Ice.literature.

                                    >
                                    > But in my opinion aettestupa has its origin in Gautrek's
                                    > saga and the word might have entered Icelandic from
                                    > the Vaestgoeta language.

                                    >
                                    > Concerning Hrod = honour, glory, fame I think
                                    > the Swedish word 'aera' could mean different
                                    > things in English.

                                    Einar; ´aera´ or ´æra´ . ´æra´ means honor in Icelandic at least.
                                    Related to Gothic ´aistan´ meaning ´virða´ which means; to respect.
                                    >
                                    > Think you are right concerning the connection of the
                                    > Eruli in Scandinavia to Skaldship.

                                    Einar; I will in two letters today on the Germanic-L come with
                                    supporting evidence/arguments for that hypothesis.

                                    Bless, Einar.
                                    >
                                    > Took a look at Ludwig Ruebekeil's _Suebica - Voelker-
                                    > namen und Ethnos_ (1992). He wrote concerning the
                                    > Eruli (my translation into English):
                                    >
                                    > "The Erulic group in the south did not only keep a feeling
                                    > of origin but - and that is important - their ethnical connection
                                    > to the north. As the ethnic center no doubt can be found in
                                    > the north, there is a lack of a creation of a new kingdom as
                                    > there is no legitimate base, as long as a representative
                                    > of the ethnic origin does not give it legitimacy." (p. 117)
                                    >
                                    > Ruebekeil also compares with the Vikings and the Varjagi.
                                    > In the case of the Vikings they were called Vikings without
                                    > necessarily identifying their exact origin. A Viking could
                                    > be Swedish, Danish or Norwegian. In the case of the Varjagi
                                    > or the Rus no exact identification of the homeland has been
                                    > made. According to Ruebekeil "die voelkerwanderungs-
                                    > zeitlichen Heruler sind die Vorlaeufer der Wikinger
                                    > in linearer Filiation". Thus Ruebekeil is identifying the Eruli
                                    > as a sociological term, not an ethnological one. On the other
                                    > hand he is above arguing for ethnicity. The Eruli only for
                                    > a short period in the southeastern home stepped out of their
                                    > sociorole and turned into an ethnos. This view has been expressed
                                    > also in Swedish literature recently, but I cannot agree with this.
                                    > The Eruli were most likely a people or tribe originating
                                    > in Denmark, to which they could not return as they had been
                                    > expelled by the Danes. Thus returning to Scandinavia they choose
                                    > to settle near the Gautoi (the Goths who had remained in Gautland/
                                    > Goetaland).
                                    >
                                    > Erulically
                                    >
                                    > Bertil
                                    >
                                  • einarbirg
                                    ... that ... Skaldship ... of ... families ... Einar; Hæ. I say here(above) that this is one of Barði´s conclusions. I was not going to involve Barði´s
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Dec 8, 2001
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      --- In gothic-l@y..., "einarbirg" <einarbirg@y...> wrote:
                                      > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Bertil Haggman" <mvk575b@t...> wrote:
                                      > >

                                      > Maybe this ´hróðr,hrod,hruod etc´ were used in names indicating
                                      that
                                      > the person´s family/kin had knowledge and practiced the art of
                                      > Skaldship. And this ´hróður´ was used too in womans names wich is
                                      > supportive of Barði Guðmundsson´s conclusions.
                                      > (In the book; Origin of the Icelanders)
                                      >
                                      > At least the meaning of the word is; fame,glory,reputation and
                                      > somehow connected to Skaldship and poetry.That is can mean
                                      Skaldship
                                      > and poetry or indicates that the fame,reputation was connected to
                                      > knowledge of the art of Skaldship or poetry.
                                      >
                                      > The meaning is; frægð,orðstír; kveðskapur,kvæði. That is documented
                                      > by the Icelandic Etymological Wordbook and stated without
                                      > reservations as beeing so. They seem always to state if a meaning
                                      of
                                      > a word is debated or the origin badly or not known.
                                      > And that is not done here.
                                      >
                                      > So here we have a good argument for that some of the Heruli
                                      families
                                      > were/might have been connected to the art of Skaldship.
                                      > And that is one of Barði Guðmundsson conclusions.
                                      >
                                      > Erulically, Einar.

                                      Einar; Hæ.

                                      I say here(above) that this is one of Barði´s conclusions.
                                      I was not going to involve Barði´s reaserch into the discussion but
                                      tried to come with evidence to support my statements with the help of
                                      etymologi.
                                      But it is not really fair nor possible to leave the discussion here
                                      without mentioning Barði´s conclusions.

                                      I was going to wait with indroducing his reaserch in detail. His works
                                      have to be studied. I have read his works. But that is not the same
                                      as a careful study to really digest his information.

                                      That might be my task in the next few weeks(or months). Not all his
                                      reaserch has been published in English. I want to take a close look
                                      at that material too.

                                      I just want to come with some information relevant to the subject of
                                      discussion between me and Bertil in letters 5206 and 5212.

                                      I think it is more appropriate to move this discussion to the
                                      Germanic-L.
                                      The letters name will be the same as above.

                                      Bless, Einar.


                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • george knysh
                                      ... bi-ritualism is also ... *****GK: Sorry for the delay in replying. Thousands of 150-450 AD Chernyakhiv graves have been analyzed in recent years by Soviet
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Dec 9, 2001
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        --- faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:
                                        bi-ritualism is also
                                        > observable in the
                                        > Niemberger and Grossbadegaster Gruppe in middle
                                        > Germany. Have you
                                        > heard anything about this custom of placing the dead
                                        > on their face in
                                        > the grave and other 'unusual' positions.

                                        *****GK: Sorry for the delay in replying. Thousands of
                                        150-450 AD Chernyakhiv graves have been analyzed in
                                        recent years by Soviet and Ukrainian archaeologists.
                                        Apparently what you or your source refer to as "on
                                        their face" inhumation burials were very rare. (Ukr.
                                        arch. describe these as "on their bellies" burials).
                                        Only two locations seemed to have them (Maslove,
                                        Kompanijtsi) both located close to the Dnipro/Dnepr
                                        about halfway between contemporary Kyiv/Kiev and
                                        Dnipropetrovsk. They are assumed to have "Sarmatian"
                                        roots, but the reasons for the position remain
                                        obscure.I have no specific information on hand about
                                        burial practices in inhumation graves of Transylvania.
                                        BTW were "face/belly" burials also found in Silesia?
                                        What percentage (approx.) of the Thuringian burials
                                        were of this type?=== As for "unusual" inhumation
                                        postures. In Ukraine the overwhelming majority of
                                        people were buried on their backs, stretched out,
                                        occasionally with legs crossed plus other minor
                                        things. Extremely rare were not just the "belly/face"
                                        burials, but "elevated knee" burials, or "couched on
                                        the side" burials. Archaeologists tend to classify
                                        inhumation burials here not so much by the posture of
                                        the cadavers (since it is overwhelmingly the same) as
                                        by the orientation of the head (north? west?) and by
                                        the type of grave shaft plus inventory.******
                                        >

                                        __________________________________________________
                                        Do You Yahoo!?
                                        Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                                        http://greetings.yahoo.com
                                      • faltin2001
                                        ... Hi George, in the article by Prof. Berthold Schmidt on Thuringian graves they are also called on the belly-burials instead of on the face , the latter
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Dec 9, 2001
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          --- In gothic-l@y..., george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > --- faltin2001 <dirk@s...> wrote:
                                          > bi-ritualism is also
                                          > > observable in the
                                          > > Niemberger and Grossbadegaster Gruppe in middle
                                          > > Germany. Have you
                                          > > heard anything about this custom of placing the dead
                                          > > on their face in
                                          > > the grave and other 'unusual' positions.
                                          >
                                          > *****GK: Sorry for the delay in replying. Thousands of
                                          > 150-450 AD Chernyakhiv graves have been analyzed in
                                          > recent years by Soviet and Ukrainian archaeologists.
                                          > Apparently what you or your source refer to as "on
                                          > their face" inhumation burials were very rare. (Ukr.
                                          > arch. describe these as "on their bellies" burials).



                                          Hi George,

                                          in the article by Prof. Berthold Schmidt on Thuringian graves they are
                                          also called 'on the belly-burials' instead of 'on the face', the
                                          latter was my own 'free' translation of 'Graeber in Bauchlage'.




                                          > Only two locations seemed to have them (Maslove,
                                          > Kompanijtsi) both located close to the Dnipro/Dnepr
                                          > about halfway between contemporary Kyiv/Kiev and
                                          > Dnipropetrovsk. They are assumed to have "Sarmatian"
                                          > roots, but the reasons for the position remain
                                          > obscure.

                                          Interesting!


                                          I have no specific information on hand about
                                          > burial practices in inhumation graves of Transylvania.


                                          The article that I quoted from stated that the movement of these
                                          burial types to Thuringia can be traced via cemetaries in Silesia, the
                                          names of which I will have to look up again.



                                          > BTW were "face/belly" burials also found in Silesia?


                                          I am not sure, as stated above Schmidt wrote that the spread of the
                                          carriers of the Western Chernyakhovsk and Sintana de Mures cultures to
                                          Thuringia is documented by cemetaries in Silesia.



                                          > What percentage (approx.) of the Thuringian burials
                                          > were of this type?=== As for "unusual" inhumation
                                          > postures.


                                          I am not sure if he gives a percentage, but will have to check the
                                          source.



                                          In Ukraine the overwhelming majority of
                                          > people were buried on their backs, stretched out,
                                          > occasionally with legs crossed plus other minor
                                          > things. Extremely rare were not just the "belly/face"
                                          > burials, but "elevated knee" burials, or "couched on
                                          > the side" burials.


                                          Exactly, these were the other burial types recorded in the Niemberger
                                          group and the Grossbadegaster group in Germany. Schmidt definitely
                                          mentioned the 'couched on the side-burials'.




                                          > Archaeologists tend to classify
                                          > inhumation burials here not so much by the posture of
                                          > the cadavers (since it is overwhelmingly the same) as
                                          > by the orientation of the head (north? west?) and by
                                          > the type of grave shaft plus inventory.******


                                          Schmidt also writes about the general orientation of the graves in
                                          these two groups in Germany as beeing indicative of Western
                                          Chernyakhovsk and Sintana de Mures culture. If I remember correctly
                                          graves are positioned in different directions. He also speaks of
                                          'bi-ritualism', but I can provide more detail tomorrow.

                                          cheers
                                          Dirk
                                        • faltin2001
                                          ... I have the article by Schmidt now in front of me. He lists (by name) 48 Chernyakhov/Sintana de Mures cemetaries in modern Germany (i.e. Thuringia). Schmidt
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Dec 11, 2001
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            --- In gothic-l@y..., george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > --- faltin2001 <dirk@s...> wrote:
                                            > bi-ritualism is also
                                            > > observable in the
                                            > > Niemberger and Grossbadegaster Gruppe in middle
                                            > > Germany. Have you
                                            > > heard anything about this custom of placing the dead
                                            > > on their face in
                                            > > the grave and other 'unusual' positions.
                                            >
                                            > *****GK: Sorry for the delay in replying. Thousands of
                                            > 150-450 AD Chernyakhiv graves have been analyzed in
                                            > recent years by Soviet and Ukrainian archaeologists.



                                            I have the article by Schmidt now in front of me. He lists (by name)
                                            48 Chernyakhov/Sintana de Mures cemetaries in modern Germany (i.e.
                                            Thuringia). Schmidt writes that from the 380sAD the Germanic people in
                                            Thuringia adopted body graves instead of, or along with, cremations.
                                            Thus, bi-ritual cemetaries start to occur.


                                            > Apparently what you or your source refer to as "on
                                            > their face" inhumation burials were very rare. (Ukr.
                                            > arch. describe these as "on their bellies" burials).


                                            As stated earlier Schmidt also calls them 'on the belly' graves
                                            (Bauchlage). He also stated that nothing is known about the religious
                                            believes behind this practice, adding that this practice is completely
                                            absent from Thuringian prior to this time and remains alian compared
                                            to surrounding groups.



                                            > Only two locations seemed to have them (Maslove,
                                            > Kompanijtsi) both located close to the Dnipro/Dnepr
                                            > about halfway between contemporary Kyiv/Kiev and
                                            > Dnipropetrovsk. They are assumed to have "Sarmatian"
                                            > roots, but the reasons for the position remain
                                            > obscure.
                                            > I have no specific information on hand about
                                            > burial practices in inhumation graves of Transylvania.
                                            > BTW were "face/belly" burials also found in Silesia?
                                            > What percentage (approx.) of the Thuringian burials
                                            > were of this type?===



                                            I checked the article and Schmidt does not give a percentage share of
                                            this type of burial. But he said that this burial type is also found
                                            in Silesia in the cemetary of Gross-Suerding (now Zerniki Wielkie in
                                            Poland) and Liebersee/Torgau (German part of Silesia).






                                            As for "unusual" inhumation
                                            > postures. In Ukraine the overwhelming majority of
                                            > people were buried on their backs, stretched out,
                                            > occasionally with legs crossed plus other minor
                                            > things. Extremely rare were not just the "belly/face"
                                            > burials, but "elevated knee" burials, or "couched on
                                            > the side" burials.



                                            As stated earlier, Schmidt also describes and illustrates the 'couched
                                            on the side' burials in the Niemberger group. He also mentiones 'many'
                                            derivations of the 'couched on the side burials' as well as 'multiple'
                                            graves, which contained more than one body. He states that these
                                            burial types directly link the Niemberger and Grossbadegaster groups
                                            with the western Chernyakhov and Sintana de Mures cultures. He says
                                            that the Thuringian burials are virtually identical to those between
                                            Danube and Dnjestr, e.g. at Tirgosor, Spantov, Indepedenta,
                                            Marosszentana (=Sintana de Mures) and Oinac.





                                            > Archaeologists tend to classify
                                            > inhumation burials here not so much by the posture of
                                            > the cadavers (since it is overwhelmingly the same) as
                                            > by the orientation of the head (north? west?) and by
                                            > the type of grave shaft plus inventory.******




                                            Schmidt said that with the influx of the Chernyakov/Sintana de Mures
                                            people to Thuringia the orientation of the head of the dead started to
                                            vary. Thus, while most graves are oriented north-south, we also get
                                            south-north, west-east and east-west.
                                            About the possible ethnicity of these people, Schmidt states only that
                                            the Niemberger and Grossbadegaster groups in Germany were constituted
                                            out of the 'Konkursmasse' (i.e. left-overs) of the Gothic empire at
                                            the Black Sea.

                                            cheers,
                                            Dirk






                                            > >
                                            >
                                            > __________________________________________________
                                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                                            > Send your FREE holiday greetings online!
                                            > http://greetings.yahoo.com
                                          • george knysh
                                            ... *****GK: It would appear, based on your report of Schmidt, that much if not most of the population which migrated to Thuringia did so primarily from the
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Dec 11, 2001
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              --- faltin2001 <dirk@...> wrote:
                                              > As stated earlier, Schmidt also describes and
                                              > illustrates the 'couched
                                              > on the side' burials in the Niemberger group. He
                                              > also mentiones 'many'
                                              > derivations of the 'couched on the side burials' as
                                              > well as 'multiple'
                                              > graves, which contained more than one body. He
                                              > states that these
                                              > burial types directly link the Niemberger and
                                              > Grossbadegaster groups
                                              > with the western Chernyakhov and Sintana de Mures
                                              > cultures.

                                              *****GK: It would appear, based on your report of
                                              Schmidt, that much if not most of the population which
                                              migrated to Thuringia did so primarily from the area
                                              of Rumanian Transylvania (the old Dacia which was
                                              conquered from Rome in 271). This, incidentally, is
                                              the "Caucaland" to which some of the Danubian Goths
                                              retreated subsequent to the initial Hunnic assaults.
                                              Apparently some continued on and crossed the
                                              Carpathians on their way to the northwest, stopping in
                                              Silesia for a time. All burials stemming from "on the
                                              side" variations are indubitably Germanic (or of
                                              thoroughly Germanized elements), since this is a
                                              traditional Welbark culture inhumation ritual (for
                                              those who practised inhumation rather than cremation).
                                              The "belly burials" more than likely indicate an
                                              accompanying Iranic element. Once again thanks for
                                              this most interesting piece of information, confirming
                                              a partial Gothic dispersal to the west.******



                                              __________________________________________________
                                              Do You Yahoo!?
                                              Check out Yahoo! Shopping and Yahoo! Auctions for all of
                                              your unique holiday gifts! Buy at http://shopping.yahoo.com
                                              or bid at http://auctions.yahoo.com
                                            • faltin2001
                                              ... This is exactly the conclusion that Schmidt offered. He also stated that the Niemberger and Grossbadegaster groups are constituted primarily of people from
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Dec 12, 2001
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In gothic-l@y..., george knysh <gknysh@y...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > --- faltin2001 <dirk@s...> wrote:
                                                > > As stated earlier, Schmidt also describes and
                                                > > illustrates the 'couched
                                                > > on the side' burials in the Niemberger group. He
                                                > > also mentiones 'many'
                                                > > derivations of the 'couched on the side burials' as
                                                > > well as 'multiple'
                                                > > graves, which contained more than one body. He
                                                > > states that these
                                                > > burial types directly link the Niemberger and
                                                > > Grossbadegaster groups
                                                > > with the western Chernyakhov and Sintana de Mures
                                                > > cultures.
                                                >
                                                > *****GK: It would appear, based on your report of
                                                > Schmidt, that much if not most of the population which
                                                > migrated to Thuringia did so primarily from the area
                                                > of Rumanian Transylvania (the old Dacia which was
                                                > conquered from Rome in 271).



                                                This is exactly the conclusion that Schmidt offered. He also stated
                                                that the Niemberger and Grossbadegaster groups are constituted
                                                primarily of people from Transylvania.





                                                This, incidentally, is
                                                > the "Caucaland" to which some of the Danubian Goths
                                                > retreated subsequent to the initial Hunnic assaults.
                                                > Apparently some continued on and crossed the
                                                > Carpathians on their way to the northwest, stopping in
                                                > Silesia for a time. All burials stemming from "on the
                                                > side" variations are indubitably Germanic (or of
                                                > thoroughly Germanized elements), since this is a
                                                > traditional Welbark culture inhumation ritual (for
                                                > those who practised inhumation rather than cremation).
                                                > The "belly burials" more than likely indicate an
                                                > accompanying Iranic element. Once again thanks for
                                                > this most interesting piece of information, confirming
                                                > a partial Gothic dispersal to the west.******
                                                >

                                                Thanks a lot for your comments!

                                                cheers
                                                Dirk
                                              Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.