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Ynt: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium

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  • TURKIYE DERGISI
    Burgaz is, to me, associated with Porgas. It is a Proto-Bulgarian name. One of the early Croatian kings, who are of the same stock as the Proto-Bulgarian
    Message 1 of 3 , Nov 1, 2001
      Burgaz is, to me, associated with Porgas. It is a Proto-Bulgarian name. One
      of the early Croatian kings, who are of the same stock as the
      Proto-Bulgarian khans, is called Porgas, under whom Croats accepted
      Christianity. Another Porgas was a Bulgar (Tatar) ruler on, as far as I
      remember, Mordvins, who used to live as Bulgar vassals just on the north of
      the Volga Bulgar state. This is very normal, as rulers of Danubian and Volga
      Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and Balkars of Caucasus
      were from the same family. Sources do not mention any Porgas among
      Proto-Bulgarians, but we have reasons to suppose that they used this name as
      their kins.

      Another theory may be based on the Altaic clan of Bordjs, who are likely the
      same group as Barsils of Orkhon inscriptions. They were among Kumans. In
      Russia and Ukraine slavicized Bordjs became Burdjevs, in ex-Yugo area there
      are Burdjevichs, who became Burcoglus in Turkey. In Egypt we can find
      El-Borg family descending from Kuman-Qypchaks who established Medieval
      Mamluk state there. Some members of this clan or tribe were assimilated
      among Georgian in caucasia, but major part is to be grandfathers of the
      Borchali living in Eastern Georgia. But those are no longer Kuman, but Oghuz
      Turks, as a result of long neighborhood with Azeris. The second part of the
      city name is As, name of a medieval Irano-Turcic tribe. The As were not able
      to defend themselves in very upheaval of the N. Black Sea region and Eurasia
      steps, thus always refugeed to other stronger formations, causing usual
      double naming: Burt-As, Kenger-As, Alan-As, etc. Askal, the oldest known
      name of Kiev, and Astarhan, in nortern coast of the Khazar sea bears their
      name. Today's Caucasian Osets descent from them. Kumans were very crowded in
      the both sides of Danube, and established the second Bulgarian state in
      1169. Thus, a Bordj-As union might have given its name to the city. Other
      cities and towns in Turkish Thrace seem to be named under Ottoman, since all
      those cities once had their Greek names.

      Regards,

      Osman

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@...>
      To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 8:26 AM
      Subject: Re: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium


      >
      > Burgaz is not a Turkish word. It appears only in the thracian region of
      Turkey. I dont think it is greek either because there are lots of old greek
      settlements all around in anatolia but this name is never encountered in
      anatolia. Byzantium used to have paid soldiers from other tribes such as
      goths and koman&pechenek turks.Thracia region was a passage to many
      migrating people including turks, goths and slavs. The city known as
      'silivri' 40 km west of constantinopolis is known to have nested a small
      gothic group during byzantium time before they were absorbed eventually into
      the greek community.
      > Francisc Czobor <czobor@...> wrote: --- In gothic-l@y...,
      Sahin Ahmet <ahmetsahinn@y...> wrote:
      > >
      > > I also wonder what happened to the gots who served as paid soldiers
      > to the byzantium empire. They are known to have settled in the thracia
      > region west of constantinopolis capital of the empire. There are some
      > settlement names which are apparently not turkish nor gereek. Like
      > Luleburgaz, kemerburgaz. burgaz sounds like coming from burg(city) but
      > I am not very sure. I was very surprised when I saw the mosaics in the
      > mosaic museum in istanbul depicting the byzantium soldiers which were
      > non greek in facial appearance. That was confirming the assertion that
      > the byzantium empire used some gothic tribes as paid soldiers.
      >
      > Very interesting. I knew about Luleburgaz in European Turkey and was
      > also striked by the resemblance of -burgaz with Gmc. *burgz (Goth.
      > baurgs, Germ. burg etc.). But I believed that "burgaz" is a Turkish
      > word. But if it is not Turkish, than the things change. It is,
      > however, possible that burgaz comes from Greek pyrgos (whose
      > relationship with the Germanic word is unclear) or late Latin burgus
      > (that apparently comes from Germanic).
      >
      > Francisc
    • Francisc Czobor
      Hello, Osman This is off-topic, but I think that the statement rulers of Danubian and Volga Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and Balkars of
      Message 2 of 3 , Nov 6, 2001
        Hello, Osman

        This is off-topic, but I think that the statement "rulers of Danubian
        and Volga Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and
        Balkars of Caucasus were from the same family" is based rather on
        legends than on historical facts. For instance, the rulers of Bulgars
        (both Volga and Danubian) are allegedly descendants of Avitochol, that
        is identifiable with the Hunish king Attila. It is probably plausible.
        But the Hungarian rulers of the Arpad dinasty claimed also to be
        related to Attila, fact that can be not historically attested. Many
        ruling houses claimed such affiliations that were based only on
        legends, mostly created ad-hoc, to support their political claims.

        Francisc

        --- In gothic-l@y..., "TURKIYE DERGISI" <turktarihi@t...> wrote:
        > Burgaz is, to me, associated with Porgas. It is a Proto-Bulgarian
        name. One
        > of the early Croatian kings, who are of the same stock as the
        > Proto-Bulgarian khans, is called Porgas, under whom Croats accepted
        > Christianity. Another Porgas was a Bulgar (Tatar) ruler on, as far
        as I
        > remember, Mordvins, who used to live as Bulgar vassals just on the
        north of
        > the Volga Bulgar state. This is very normal, as rulers of Danubian
        and Volga
        > Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and Balkars of
        Caucasus
        > were from the same family. Sources do not mention any Porgas among
        > Proto-Bulgarians, but we have reasons to suppose that they used this
        name as
        > their kins.
        >
        > Another theory may be based on the Altaic clan of Bordjs, who are
        likely the
        > same group as Barsils of Orkhon inscriptions. They were among
        Kumans. In
        > Russia and Ukraine slavicized Bordjs became Burdjevs, in ex-Yugo
        area there
        > are Burdjevichs, who became Burcoglus in Turkey. In Egypt we can
        find
        > El-Borg family descending from Kuman-Qypchaks who established
        Medieval
        > Mamluk state there. Some members of this clan or tribe were
        assimilated
        > among Georgian in caucasia, but major part is to be grandfathers of
        the
        > Borchali living in Eastern Georgia. But those are no longer Kuman,
        but Oghuz
        > Turks, as a result of long neighborhood with Azeris. The second part
        of the
        > city name is As, name of a medieval Irano-Turcic tribe. The As were
        not able
        > to defend themselves in very upheaval of the N. Black Sea region and
        Eurasia
        > steps, thus always refugeed to other stronger formations, causing
        usual
        > double naming: Burt-As, Kenger-As, Alan-As, etc. Askal, the oldest
        known
        > name of Kiev, and Astarhan, in nortern coast of the Khazar sea bears
        their
        > name. Today's Caucasian Osets descent from them. Kumans were very
        crowded in
        > the both sides of Danube, and established the second Bulgarian state
        in
        > 1169. Thus, a Bordj-As union might have given its name to the city.
        Other
        > cities and towns in Turkish Thrace seem to be named under Ottoman,
        since all
        > those cities once had their Greek names.
        >
        > Regards,
        >
        > Osman
        >
        > ...
      • TURKIYE DERGISI
        Hi, Francisc, Certainly, legends are not sources of history, but bear quasy-historical facts that should be regarded. Early Volga Bulgar sources give the name
        Message 3 of 3 , Nov 6, 2001
          Hi, Francisc,

          Certainly, legends are not sources of history, but bear quasy-historical
          facts that should be regarded. Early Volga Bulgar sources give the name
          Audan Dulo with nickname Atil. list of Bulgarian Hans was in Greek
          originally and translated into Russian. Avitochol(os, possibly in Greek) and
          Audan Dulo seem to be the same. Arpad was khan of Onogurs, founding tribal
          group of the Great Bulgar state, then he took Ugric Magyars with him to move
          westward. I think there are enough indications to consider (some part of)
          that quasy-history as history. As you say this is off-topic and no need to
          make this e-group busy with this. But it would be pleasure for me to discuss
          these topics and make use of your comments to complete my thesis.

          regards,

          Osman

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Francisc Czobor <czobor@...>
          To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:09 AM
          Subject: Ynt: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium


          > Hello, Osman
          >
          > This is off-topic, but I think that the statement "rulers of Danubian
          > and Volga Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and
          > Balkars of Caucasus were from the same family" is based rather on
          > legends than on historical facts. For instance, the rulers of Bulgars
          > (both Volga and Danubian) are allegedly descendants of Avitochol, that
          > is identifiable with the Hunish king Attila. It is probably plausible.
          > But the Hungarian rulers of the Arpad dinasty claimed also to be
          > related to Attila, fact that can be not historically attested. Many
          > ruling houses claimed such affiliations that were based only on
          > legends, mostly created ad-hoc, to support their political claims.
          >
          > Francisc
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@y..., "TURKIYE DERGISI" <turktarihi@t...> wrote:
          > > Burgaz is, to me, associated with Porgas. It is a Proto-Bulgarian
          > name. One
          > > of the early Croatian kings, who are of the same stock as the
          > > Proto-Bulgarian khans, is called Porgas, under whom Croats accepted
          > > Christianity. Another Porgas was a Bulgar (Tatar) ruler on, as far
          > as I
          > > remember, Mordvins, who used to live as Bulgar vassals just on the
          > north of
          > > the Volga Bulgar state. This is very normal, as rulers of Danubian
          > and Volga
          > > Bulgars, Hungarians, Croats, Great (Ukrain) Bulgars and Balkars of
          > Caucasus
          > > were from the same family. Sources do not mention any Porgas among
          > > Proto-Bulgarians, but we have reasons to suppose that they used this
          > name as
          > > their kins.
          > >
          > > Another theory may be based on the Altaic clan of Bordjs, who are
          > likely the
          > > same group as Barsils of Orkhon inscriptions. They were among
          > Kumans. In
          > > Russia and Ukraine slavicized Bordjs became Burdjevs, in ex-Yugo
          > area there
          > > are Burdjevichs, who became Burcoglus in Turkey. In Egypt we can
          > find
          > > El-Borg family descending from Kuman-Qypchaks who established
          > Medieval
          > > Mamluk state there. Some members of this clan or tribe were
          > assimilated
          > > among Georgian in caucasia, but major part is to be grandfathers of
          > the
          > > Borchali living in Eastern Georgia. But those are no longer Kuman,
          > but Oghuz
          > > Turks, as a result of long neighborhood with Azeris. The second part
          > of the
          > > city name is As, name of a medieval Irano-Turcic tribe. The As were
          > not able
          > > to defend themselves in very upheaval of the N. Black Sea region and
          > Eurasia
          > > steps, thus always refugeed to other stronger formations, causing
          > usual
          > > double naming: Burt-As, Kenger-As, Alan-As, etc. Askal, the oldest
          > known
          > > name of Kiev, and Astarhan, in nortern coast of the Khazar sea bears
          > their
          > > name. Today's Caucasian Osets descent from them. Kumans were very
          > crowded in
          > > the both sides of Danube, and established the second Bulgarian state
          > in
          > > 1169. Thus, a Bordj-As union might have given its name to the city.
          > Other
          > > cities and towns in Turkish Thrace seem to be named under Ottoman,
          > since all
          > > those cities once had their Greek names.
          > >
          > > Regards,
          > >
          > > Osman
          > >
          > > ...
          >
          >
          >
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