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Re: [gothic-l] Re: byzantium

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  • Nenad Mitovski
    ... There is also a town Burgas in Bulgaria on Black Sea coast.
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 1, 2001
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      | Burgaz is not a Turkish word. It appears only in the thracian region of

      There is also a town Burgas in Bulgaria on Black Sea coast.
    • Sigmund
      Thank you so very much, Francisc, Glad you took your time. Your answer was highly elucidating and gave me a prompt answer to my questions, and much of it was
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 1, 2001
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        Thank you so very much, Francisc,

        Glad you took your time. Your answer was highly elucidating and gave me
        a prompt answer to my questions, and much of it was welcome news to me.

        You probably know that modern days' Slovenian claim to be descendants of
        non-Pripjat slavs, having migrated to this area north-east of Italy long before
        the "ordinary" great slavic migrations and living alongside with celtic tribes?
        I don't know what evidence they have for it and it is of course less than
        tangential here in this forum, but I came to think of it when you referred to
        "(probably Illyrian) tribe of the Veneti (the name is also connected with the
        name of the region Venetia, now Venezia in NE Italy".


        Sclavus tue,

        Sigmund
        PS Glad you disregarded my anachronistic treatment of Jordanes. More on
        that in my reply to Andreas Schwarcz. DS




        Francics wrote =>

        "Hello, Sigmund,

        I'm not a professional in such matters, so I will tell you what I have
        read and seems to be accepted by many.

        Wends/Venethi: in the early antiquity, the eastern neighbors of the
        Germanic peoples were represented by the old Indo-European (probably
        Illyrian) tribe of the Veneti (the name is also connected with the
        name of the region Venetia, now Venezia in NE Italy, and the name of
        the city of Venice). When the Veneti were later replaced/assimilated
        by the Slavs, the old Germans transferred the name Venethi/Venedi to
        them. Initially, it was a generic term for the Slavs (Iordanes:
        Venethi, OHG: winid-, MHG: winde). Later the term was confined to the
        direct Slavic neighbors of the Germans: the Lusacian Sorabs, called in
        German "Wenden". The term was borrowed also by non-Germanic languages
        and denominates Slavic neighbors:
        Finnish: Venäjä "Russia", venäläis "Russian"
        Hungarian: vend "Slovenian of Hungary"

        Vandal: several ethymologies proposed, discussed also on this list.
        None looks to me convincing.

        Vinnili: don't know.
        It seems that the terms "Vandali" and "Vinnili" are not connected to
        "Veneti", nor to each other.

        Regarding Sclavinia/Slavonia, they are derived from the own
        degnitation of the old Slavs: Slovene. One possible etymology is that
        quoted in my previous mail (slovo "word"), but there are also other
        hypotheses. From the time when the Avars dominated the Slavs and used
        them as slaves, dates also the Latin term sclavus "slave".
        Why an old Germanic territory is named "Sclavinia", I can not imagine,
        only speculations...

        I hope that someone more informed than me could help you better.

        Francisc"
      • Sigmund
        You are of course right, Andreas! I did a new variant of typo, typical for our times´ copy-and-paste way of writing. I was going to quote Jordanes and Adam
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 1, 2001
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          You are of course right, Andreas!

          I did a new variant of typo, typical for our times´ "copy-and-paste" way
          of writing. I was going to quote Jordanes and Adam of Bremen but pasted
          a quote of the latter onto the former. Sorry for the headache, Andreas!!
          The quote was Adam of Bremen's of course.

          Andreas Schwarcz objected=>
          > Dear Sigmund,
          > Jordanes did not write anything around 1070 AD. By then he had
          > been dead for nearly half a millenium. Your whole citation of him is
          > pure invention and cannot be found either in the Romana or in the
          > Getica. Jordanes does not locate the Vandals in the Sclavinia, he
          > puts them Getica IV 25 ff. near Gothiscandza and the Ulmerugi,
          > that means near the coast of the Baltic Sea. He never uses the
          > term "Sclavinia" and does not call it a province of Germania. He
          > puts the "Venetharum natio populosa" firmly into the Scythia
          > Getica V 34 f., where he also locates the "Sclaveni a civitate
          < Novietunense et laco quo apellatur Mursiano usque ad Danastrum
          > et in boream Viscla tenus commorantur."

          So let me quote the whole passage, which was from an article by
          Klaus Goldmann, Staatliche Museen zu Berlin Preussiger Kulturbesitz,
          Museum für Vor-und Frühgesichte Berlin.
          In an article named "The Wends or Vandals in the Early Middle Ages"
          he writes (full quote):
          "One of the most important historical sources for events around the end of the first millennium in northern parts of Central Europe is Adam of Bremen's chronicles of the History of the Archbishops of Hamburg-Bremen (Gesta Hammaburgensis ecclesiae pontificum) written around 1070. There you will find the following concise comment: "Slavinia, the most extensive of all the provinces of Germania, is inhabited by the Winils, or the Vandals as they used to be known." Approximately a century after Adam penned his account, Helmold of Bosau made a similar assertion in his chronicle of the Slavonic peoples, Chronica Slavorum: "Beyond where Poland now has its frontiers, you move into the enormous territories of the Slaves known formerly as the Vandals, but now called the Wends or the Winils."

          Little could I know that this was a mine field I trodded:

          > This identification of Wendes with Vandals is the so-called
          > Wendland-theory proposed by Walter Steller and others, very
          > popular under modern German right-wing extremists, but never
          > acknowledged by any serious historian, linguist or archeologist. Its
          > aim is to "prove" germanic continuity from ancient to modern times
          > and to explain the slavic settlement in Poland as fictitious.

          I am probably one of the last on this planet to wantonly propagate
          material from "modern German right-wing extremists"! Walter Steller
          is an unknown entity to me.
          Suffice that.

          > It should have no place in a serious discussion and it is certainly not
          > a part of any gothic linguistic or historic debate.
          >
          > Kind regards
          > Andreas

          I cannot quite follow you here, Andreas. Vandal history, language and
          ethnography are intimately tied to the Goths. They were often at odds
          and frequently at war with each others but indeed shared some
          Gothic language, read out of Wulfila's bible and were of the arian creed
          and "from the same neighbourhood" so to speak. They were as "gothic"
          as can be without ever being called Goths.

          Sorry for the confusion,

          Sigmund
        • dirk@smra.co.uk
          ... have ... Hi Fransics, that is an interesting point. I agree, the Venethi mentioned in first and second century sources are too early to be regarded as
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
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            --- In gothic-l@y..., "Francisc Czobor" <czobor@c...> wrote:
            > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Sigmund" <sigmund@a...> wrote:
            > > ...
            > > Francisc, do you have anything comments on the plethora of related
            > or associated names like
            > Sclavinia/Slavonia/Vandals/Wends/Venethi/Vinniles etc?
            > >
            > > Sigmund
            >
            > Hello, Sigmund,
            >
            > I'm not a professional in such matters, so I will tell you what I
            have
            > read and seems to be accepted by many.
            >
            > Wends/Venethi: in the early antiquity, the eastern neighbors of the
            > Germanic peoples were represented by the old Indo-European (probably
            > Illyrian) tribe of the Veneti (the name is also connected with the
            > name of the region Venetia, now Venezia in NE Italy, and the name of
            > the city of Venice). When the Veneti were later replaced/assimilated
            > by the Slavs, the old Germans transferred the name Venethi/Venedi to
            > them. Initially, it was a generic term for the Slavs (Iordanes:
            > Venethi, OHG: winid-, MHG: winde).


            Hi Fransics,

            that is an interesting point. I agree, the Venethi mentioned in first
            and second century sources are too early to be regarded as Slavs and
            the transmission of the Venethi name to the later Slavs seems likely.
            the same seems to have happened on the other side of the Germania,
            where the Celtic Volcae provided the name also for later Romans, i.e.
            'Welsche', 'Walser', etc.





            Later the term was confined to
            the
            > direct Slavic neighbors of the Germans: the Lusacian Sorabs, called
            in
            > German "Wenden". The term was borrowed also by non-Germanic
            languages
            > and denominates Slavic neighbors:
            > Finnish: Venäjä "Russia", venäläis "Russian"
            > Hungarian: vend "Slovenian of Hungary"
            >
            > Vandal: several ethymologies proposed, discussed also on this list.
            > None looks to me convincing.
            >
            > Vinnili: don't know.


            There was a small Celtic tribe called the Vinnili in modern Belgium,
            but any link the Germanic Vinnili could be coincidental.


            > It seems that the terms "Vandali" and "Vinnili" are not connected to
            > "Veneti", nor to each other.


            Interestingly, a medieval chronicler, Helmold von Bosau (about 1160),
            who is one of the main sources of the early history of the Western
            Slavs, wrote that in modern western Poland live people who call
            themselves, Vinduli or Vinili, but who were called Vandali in ancient
            times! Helmold also mentiones Heruli as living at the Havel river, but
            beeing now also called Heveldi.

            cheers
            Dirk
          • dirk@smra.co.uk
            ... River ... canal ... by ... of ... all ... Vandals ... Hello Andreas, Sigmund did not invent the quote, but confused the sources. He was clearly refering to
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
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              --- In gothic-l@y..., andreas.schwarcz@u... wrote:
              > On 30 Oct 2001, at 21:00, Sigmund wrote:
              >
              > > Thank you Francisc,
              > >
              > > The nucleus of slavic expansion is believed to be the Pripjat
              River
              > > area in northern Ukraine on the border of Poland (to-day a short
              canal
              > > joins it with the Wistula) and hence close to the territories held
              by
              > > the Goths prior to their migration towards the Black Sea. North of
              > > them were a closely related group of East Germanics, the Vandals,
              of
              > > whom Jordanes wrote around 1070: "Slavinia, the most extensive of
              all
              > > the provinces of Germania, is inhabited by the Winils, or the
              Vandals
              > > as they used to be known.".
              >
              >
              > Dear Sigmund,
              > Jordanes did not write anything around 1070 AD. By then he had
              > been dead for nearly half a millenium. Your whole citation of him is
              > pure invention and cannot be found either in the Romana or in the
              > Getica.


              Hello Andreas,

              Sigmund did not invent the quote, but confused the sources. He was
              clearly refering to Helmold of Bosau, (although he wrote in the
              1160sAD). As I mentioned in the previous message. Helmold mentioned
              the Winili or Winduli in modern western Poland. Helmold does say that
              they were called Vandali in ancient times. Helmold also mentiones
              Heruli living at the Havel, but states that they are somtimes also
              called Heveldi.



              Jordanes does not locate the Vandals in the Sclavinia, he
              > puts them Getica IV 25 ff. near Gothiscandza and the Ulmerugi,
              > that means near the coast of the Baltic Sea. He never uses the
              > term "Sclavinia" and does not call it a province of Germania. He
              > puts the "Venetharum natio populosa" firmly into the Scythia
              > Getica V 34 f., where he also locates the "Sclaveni a civitate
              > Novietunense et laco quo apellatur Mursiano usque ad Danastrum
              > et in boream Viscla tenus commorantur."
              >
              > They were established on the South Baltic
              > > shores, west of Prussia. I have come to believe that these are
              > > identical with the Wendes, who long gave name to the Baltic Sea
              (at
              > > least its eastern parts) as the Vendic Sea, Mare Wendicum (Sinus
              > > Wendicus for the Finnish Gulf). But 'die Wandalen' were germanics,
              not
              > > slavs.
              >
              > This identification of Wendes with Vandals is the so-called
              > Wendland-theory proposed by Walter Steller and others, very
              > popular under modern German right-wing extremists, but never
              > acknowledged by any serious historian, linguist or archeologist.


              I agree, Wendland and Vandals have nothing to do with each other, but
              the theory was apparently reused only recently by a Vandal exhibition
              in Sweden, were the Wendland seemed to have been suggested as final
              refuge of the African Vandals after 533AD. Which is nonsense of
              course.

              cheers
              Dirk
            • andreas.schwarcz@univie.ac.at
              Dear Sigmund and dear Dirk, as Sigurd wrote himself, he confused Jordanes and Adam of Bremen. Helmold of Bosau cites in his turn again Adam of Bremen, Gesta
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
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                Dear Sigmund and dear Dirk,
                as Sigurd wrote himself, he confused Jordanes and Adam of
                Bremen. Helmold of Bosau cites in his turn again Adam of Bremen,
                Gesta Hammaburgenis Ecclesiae Pontificum, lib.2, cap.21:

                Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis
                incolitur, qui olim dicti sunt Wandali, decies maior esse fertur
                quam nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemiam et eos, qui trans
                Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in
                partem adieceris Sclavaniae. ... Eius latitudo est a meridie in
                boream, hoc est ab Albia fluvio usque ad mare Scythicum.
                Longitudo autem illa videtur, quae initium habet ab nostra
                Hammaburgensis parochia et porrigitur in orientem infinitis aucta
                spatiis usque in beguariam, Ungriam et Greciam.

                Helmold, Chronica Slavorum, cap.2:

                Ubi igitur Polonia finem facit, pervenitur ad amplissimam Slavorum
                provinciam, eorum qui antiquitus Wandali, nunc autem Winithi sive
                Winuli appellantur. Horum primi sunt Pomerani, quorum sedes
                portenduntur usque ad Odoram.

                As you can see for yourself, both Adam and Helmold are learned
                clerics from the high middle ages, who show off their erudition by
                citing the ancient Vandals, by then dead and extinct for half a
                millenium. This is quite the established way to cite ancient peoples
                in ethnographic descriptions in the high middle ages and to equate
                them with contemporary peoples. You will be shortly able to read
                how the Vandals were treated in medieval and early modern
                literature in the Neue Pauly, because my young Viennese collegue
                Steinacher wrote the relevant lemma about them for this new
                encyclopedia and this volume it is just being printed. Both Adam
                and Helmold are primarily interested in the conversion of the Slavs
                living east of the river Elbe and their Slavinia reflects the ethnic
                situation in the high middle ages, when wide parts of Northern
                Germany were inhabited by Slavic peoples. For that I would
                recommend Joachim Herrmann, die Slawen in Deutschland. Berlin
                1972, and Welt der Slawen. München 1986.
                By the way, the Vandals, were not Goths, but the Gutones seem
                to have been under Vandal dominance for some time.
                Archeologically the Vandals are sought in the area of the so-called
                Przeworsk culture, the Goths in the Wielbark culture east of it
                during their first centuries of existence.

                Kind regards
                Andreas Schwarcz


                Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
                Universität Wien
                Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
                A-1010 Wien
                Österreich
                Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
                Fax 0043/142-77/92-72
              • dirk@smra.co.uk
                ... Dear Andreas, yes, I initially did not see Sigmund s own correction. Your other explanations seem very reasonable to me. Do you think that Helmold s
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
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                  --- In gothic-l@y..., andreas.schwarcz@u... wrote:
                  > Dear Sigmund and dear Dirk,
                  > as Sigurd wrote himself, he confused Jordanes and Adam of
                  > Bremen. Helmold of Bosau cites in his turn again Adam of Bremen,
                  > Gesta Hammaburgenis Ecclesiae Pontificum, lib.2, cap.21:
                  >
                  > Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis
                  > incolitur, qui olim dicti sunt Wandali, decies maior esse fertur
                  > quam nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemiam et eos, qui trans
                  > Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in
                  > partem adieceris Sclavaniae. ... Eius latitudo est a meridie in
                  > boream, hoc est ab Albia fluvio usque ad mare Scythicum.
                  > Longitudo autem illa videtur, quae initium habet ab nostra
                  > Hammaburgensis parochia et porrigitur in orientem infinitis aucta
                  > spatiis usque in beguariam, Ungriam et Greciam.
                  >
                  > Helmold, Chronica Slavorum, cap.2:
                  >
                  > Ubi igitur Polonia finem facit, pervenitur ad amplissimam Slavorum
                  > provinciam, eorum qui antiquitus Wandali, nunc autem Winithi sive
                  > Winuli appellantur. Horum primi sunt Pomerani, quorum sedes
                  > portenduntur usque ad Odoram.
                  >
                  > As you can see for yourself, both Adam and Helmold are learned
                  > clerics from the high middle ages, who show off their erudition by
                  > citing the ancient Vandals, by then dead and extinct for half a
                  > millenium. This is quite the established way to cite ancient peoples
                  > in ethnographic descriptions in the high middle ages and to equate
                  > them with contemporary peoples. You will be shortly able to read
                  > how the Vandals were treated in medieval and early modern
                  > literature in the Neue Pauly, because my young Viennese collegue
                  > Steinacher wrote the relevant lemma about them for this new
                  > encyclopedia and this volume it is just being printed. Both Adam
                  > and Helmold are primarily interested in the conversion of the Slavs
                  > living east of the river Elbe and their Slavinia reflects the ethnic
                  > situation in the high middle ages, when wide parts of Northern
                  > Germany were inhabited by Slavic peoples. For that I would
                  > recommend Joachim Herrmann, die Slawen in Deutschland. Berlin
                  > 1972, and Welt der Slawen. München 1986.
                  > By the way, the Vandals, were not Goths, but the Gutones seem
                  > to have been under Vandal dominance for some time.
                  > Archeologically the Vandals are sought in the area of the so-called
                  > Przeworsk culture, the Goths in the Wielbark culture east of it
                  > during their first centuries of existence.
                  >
                  > Kind regards
                  > Andreas Schwarcz


                  Dear Andreas,

                  yes, I initially did not see Sigmund's own correction. Your other
                  explanations seem very reasonable to me. Do you think that Helmold's
                  mentioning of Heruli at the Havel should be explained in the same way?
                  As Heruli did not exist since the middle of the 6th century, another
                  explanation would be a simple confusion of existing or similar
                  sounding names as other documents of the area (from Magdeburg) also
                  seem to report the name Heruli in the 11th century at the Havel.

                  cheers,
                  dirk
                  >
                  >
                  > Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                  > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
                  > Universität Wien
                  > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
                  > A-1010 Wien
                  > Österreich
                  > Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
                  > Fax 0043/142-77/92-72
                • Oskar Andersson
                  ... From: To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:39 PM Subject: [gothic-l] Re: More on the Gothic-Slavic link ...
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: <dirk@...>
                    To: <gothic-l@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 6:39 PM
                    Subject: [gothic-l] Re: More on the Gothic-Slavic link


                    > --- In gothic-l@y..., andreas.schwarcz@u... wrote:
                    > > Dear Sigmund and dear Dirk,
                    > > as Sigurd wrote himself, he confused Jordanes and Adam of
                    > > Bremen. Helmold of Bosau cites in his turn again Adam of Bremen,
                    > > Gesta Hammaburgenis Ecclesiae Pontificum, lib.2, cap.21:
                    > >
                    > > Sclavania igitur, amplissima Germaniae provintia, a Winulis
                    > > incolitur, qui olim dicti sunt Wandali, decies maior esse fertur
                    > > quam nostra Saxonia, presertim si Boemiam et eos, qui trans
                    > > Oddaram sunt, Polanos, quia nec habitu nec lingua discrepant, in
                    > > partem adieceris Sclavaniae. ... Eius latitudo est a meridie in
                    > > boream, hoc est ab Albia fluvio usque ad mare Scythicum.
                    > > Longitudo autem illa videtur, quae initium habet ab nostra
                    > > Hammaburgensis parochia et porrigitur in orientem infinitis aucta
                    > > spatiis usque in beguariam, Ungriam et Greciam.
                    > >
                    > > Helmold, Chronica Slavorum, cap.2:
                    > >
                    > > Ubi igitur Polonia finem facit, pervenitur ad amplissimam Slavorum
                    > > provinciam, eorum qui antiquitus Wandali, nunc autem Winithi sive
                    > > Winuli appellantur. Horum primi sunt Pomerani, quorum sedes
                    > > portenduntur usque ad Odoram.
                    > >
                    > > As you can see for yourself, both Adam and Helmold are learned
                    > > clerics from the high middle ages, who show off their erudition by
                    > > citing the ancient Vandals, by then dead and extinct for half a
                    > > millenium. This is quite the established way to cite ancient peoples
                    > > in ethnographic descriptions in the high middle ages and to equate
                    > > them with contemporary peoples. You will be shortly able to read
                    > > how the Vandals were treated in medieval and early modern
                    > > literature in the Neue Pauly, because my young Viennese collegue
                    > > Steinacher wrote the relevant lemma about them for this new
                    > > encyclopedia and this volume it is just being printed. Both Adam
                    > > and Helmold are primarily interested in the conversion of the Slavs
                    > > living east of the river Elbe and their Slavinia reflects the ethnic
                    > > situation in the high middle ages, when wide parts of Northern
                    > > Germany were inhabited by Slavic peoples. For that I would
                    > > recommend Joachim Herrmann, die Slawen in Deutschland. Berlin
                    > > 1972, and Welt der Slawen. München 1986.
                    > > By the way, the Vandals, were not Goths, but the Gutones seem
                    > > to have been under Vandal dominance for some time.
                    > > Archeologically the Vandals are sought in the area of the so-called
                    > > Przeworsk culture, the Goths in the Wielbark culture east of it
                    > > during their first centuries of existence.
                    > >
                    > > Kind regards
                    > > Andreas Schwarcz
                    >
                    >
                    > Dear Andreas,
                    >
                    > yes, I initially did not see Sigmund's own correction. Your other
                    > explanations seem very reasonable to me. Do you think that Helmold's
                    > mentioning of Heruli at the Havel should be explained in the same way?
                    > As Heruli did not exist since the middle of the 6th century, another
                    > explanation would be a simple confusion of existing or similar
                    > sounding names as other documents of the area (from Magdeburg) also
                    > seem to report the name Heruli in the 11th century at the Havel.

                    Dirk, how do you mean that the Heruls didn't exist in the 6th century?
                    I admit that I am not all too familiar with Herluian history, so I'd appreciate
                    a brief explanation!
                    And please, could you recommend some book on Herulian history, or at least
                    some book that partly consider their history?

                    Swedish or English, or German, although it is hard for me to pick up German books!

                    Thanks,
                    Oskar
                  • Oskar Andersson
                    ... A correction, I know indeed that Heruls settled in Illyria in 512, and some are said to have returned to Scandinavia - even some returning for a new King
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 5, 2001
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                      > Dear Andreas,
                      >
                      > yes, I initially did not see Sigmund's own correction. Your other
                      > explanations seem very reasonable to me. Do you think that Helmold's
                      > mentioning of Heruli at the Havel should be explained in the same way?
                      > As Heruli did not exist since the middle of the 6th century, another
                      > explanation would be a simple confusion of existing or similar
                      > sounding names as other documents of the area (from Magdeburg) also
                      > seem to report the name Heruli in the 11th century at the Havel.

                      A correction, I know indeed that Heruls settled in Illyria in 512, and some are said to have returned to Scandinavia - even some returning for a new King from Thule (Procopius). But, to rephrase my question, what do we know about their time in Illyria after 550? Does the Haemus area display any remains of the last Herul settlements? Does the region display any memories of German migratory movements, like place names, etc.

                      My other question on books on Heruls remains!

                      Best,
                      Oskar



                      > cheers,
                      > dirk
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                      > > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
                      > > Universität Wien
                      > > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
                      > > A-1010 Wien
                      > > Österreich
                      > > Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
                      > > Fax 0043/142-77/92-72
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                    • dirk@smra.co.uk
                      ... Helmold s ... way? ... another ... also ... and some are said to have returned to Scandinavia - even some returning for a new King from Thule (Procopius).
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 6, 2001
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                        --- In gothic-l@y..., "Oskar Andersson" <o.andersson@g...> wrote:
                        >
                        > > Dear Andreas,
                        > >
                        > > yes, I initially did not see Sigmund's own correction. Your other
                        > > explanations seem very reasonable to me. Do you think that
                        Helmold's
                        > > mentioning of Heruli at the Havel should be explained in the same
                        way?
                        > > As Heruli did not exist since the middle of the 6th century,
                        another
                        > > explanation would be a simple confusion of existing or similar
                        > > sounding names as other documents of the area (from Magdeburg)
                        also
                        > > seem to report the name Heruli in the 11th century at the Havel.
                        >
                        > A correction, I know indeed that Heruls settled in Illyria in 512,
                        and some are said to have returned to Scandinavia - even some
                        returning for a new King from Thule (Procopius). But, to rephrase my
                        question, what do we know about their time in Illyria after 550? Does
                        the Haemus area display any remains of the last Herul settlements?
                        Does the region display any memories of German migratory movements,
                        like place names, etc.


                        Hi Oskar,

                        my understanding is that the Heruls basically ceased to exist as a
                        tribal or political entity with the defeat by the Langobards in around
                        510AD. The sources are slighly contradictory here, while Procopius
                        mentiones a Herulic kingdom in Illyria after that, other Langobardic
                        authors (Langobardic history is often surprisingly positive about the
                        role of the Heruls) states that they had no kings after the defeat of
                        about 510AD. In any case they played no role after that. The so called
                        'Table of Nations' which is often dated to about 520AD does not
                        mention this Illyrian kingdom of the Heruls and it will not have been
                        of great significance at any rate. Certainly, individual Heruls are
                        mentioned in the course of the 6th century, but I think that we can
                        safely say that the tribe of the Heruls ceased to exsist in the course
                        of the 6th century.

                        As for books, I am not aware of one book on Heruls. I got my
                        information from different books and articles, but I am sure that
                        Andreas or Troels who know much more about the Heruls will be able to
                        provide some useful sources.


                        cheers,
                        Dirk


                        >
                        > My other question on books on Heruls remains!
                        >
                        > Best,
                        > Oskar
                        >








                        >
                        >
                        > > cheers,
                        > > dirk
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                        > > > Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
                        > > > Universität Wien
                        > > > Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
                        > > > A-1010 Wien
                        > > > Österreich
                        > > > Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
                        > > > Fax 0043/142-77/92-72
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a
                        blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        > >
                      • dirk@smra.co.uk
                        ... other ... same ... Does ... around ... the ... of ... called ... been ... course ... to ... Hi again Oscar, I realised that I did not attempt to answer one
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 6, 2001
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                          --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                          > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Oskar Andersson" <o.andersson@g...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Dear Andreas,
                          > > >
                          > > > yes, I initially did not see Sigmund's own correction. Your
                          other
                          > > > explanations seem very reasonable to me. Do you think that
                          > Helmold's
                          > > > mentioning of Heruli at the Havel should be explained in the
                          same
                          > way?
                          > > > As Heruli did not exist since the middle of the 6th century,
                          > another
                          > > > explanation would be a simple confusion of existing or similar
                          > > > sounding names as other documents of the area (from Magdeburg)
                          > also
                          > > > seem to report the name Heruli in the 11th century at the Havel.
                          > >
                          > > A correction, I know indeed that Heruls settled in Illyria in 512,
                          > and some are said to have returned to Scandinavia - even some
                          > returning for a new King from Thule (Procopius). But, to rephrase my
                          > question, what do we know about their time in Illyria after 550?
                          Does
                          > the Haemus area display any remains of the last Herul settlements?
                          > Does the region display any memories of German migratory movements,
                          > like place names, etc.
                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Oskar,
                          >
                          > my understanding is that the Heruls basically ceased to exist as a
                          > tribal or political entity with the defeat by the Langobards in
                          around
                          > 510AD. The sources are slighly contradictory here, while Procopius
                          > mentiones a Herulic kingdom in Illyria after that, other Langobardic
                          > authors (Langobardic history is often surprisingly positive about
                          the
                          > role of the Heruls) states that they had no kings after the defeat
                          of
                          > about 510AD. In any case they played no role after that. The so
                          called
                          > 'Table of Nations' which is often dated to about 520AD does not
                          > mention this Illyrian kingdom of the Heruls and it will not have
                          been
                          > of great significance at any rate. Certainly, individual Heruls are
                          > mentioned in the course of the 6th century, but I think that we can
                          > safely say that the tribe of the Heruls ceased to exsist in the
                          course
                          > of the 6th century.
                          >
                          > As for books, I am not aware of one book on Heruls. I got my
                          > information from different books and articles, but I am sure that
                          > Andreas or Troels who know much more about the Heruls will be able
                          to
                          > provide some useful sources.
                          >
                          >
                          > cheers,
                          > Dirk
                          >
                          >

                          Hi again Oscar,

                          I realised that I did not attempt to answer one part of your question.
                          In short, I think there are no traces of the Illyrian Heruls to be
                          found today. I would be very suprised if any archaeological or
                          toponymical evidence could attest their existence. The king of these
                          Heruls was likely not more powerful than a provincial Roman official
                          if at all. In fact, if we belief Procopius, the Herulic king after the
                          defeat by the Langobards, was virtually indistinguishable from the
                          rest of the population, without special respect or status. Therefore,
                          it is not surprising that Theoderic, who was keen to build alliances
                          with other tribes completely ignore this Illyrian kingdom of the
                          Heruls, who after all were his one-time allies.

                          cheers,
                          Dirk
                        • Francisc Czobor
                          ... me ... me. ... descendants of ... long before ... celtic tribes? ... than ... referred to ... with the ... on ... have ... the ... in ... languages ...
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 6, 2001
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                            --- In gothic-l@y..., "Sigmund" <sigmund@a...> wrote:
                            > Thank you so very much, Francisc,
                            >
                            > Glad you took your time. Your answer was highly elucidating and gave
                            me
                            > a prompt answer to my questions, and much of it was welcome news to
                            me.
                            >
                            > You probably know that modern days' Slovenian claim to be
                            descendants of
                            > non-Pripjat slavs, having migrated to this area north-east of Italy
                            long before
                            > the "ordinary" great slavic migrations and living alongside with
                            celtic tribes?
                            > I don't know what evidence they have for it and it is of course less
                            than
                            > tangential here in this forum, but I came to think of it when you
                            referred to
                            > "(probably Illyrian) tribe of the Veneti (the name is also connected
                            with the
                            > name of the region Venetia, now Venezia in NE Italy".
                            >
                            >
                            > Sclavus tue,
                            >
                            > Sigmund
                            > PS Glad you disregarded my anachronistic treatment of Jordanes. More
                            on
                            > that in my reply to Andreas Schwarcz. DS
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Francics wrote =>
                            >
                            > "Hello, Sigmund,
                            >
                            > I'm not a professional in such matters, so I will tell you what I
                            have
                            > read and seems to be accepted by many.
                            >
                            > Wends/Venethi: in the early antiquity, the eastern neighbors of the
                            > Germanic peoples were represented by the old Indo-European (probably
                            > Illyrian) tribe of the Veneti (the name is also connected with the
                            > name of the region Venetia, now Venezia in NE Italy, and the name of
                            > the city of Venice). When the Veneti were later replaced/assimilated
                            > by the Slavs, the old Germans transferred the name Venethi/Venedi to
                            > them. Initially, it was a generic term for the Slavs (Iordanes:
                            > Venethi, OHG: winid-, MHG: winde). Later the term was confined to
                            the
                            > direct Slavic neighbors of the Germans: the Lusacian Sorabs, called
                            in
                            > German "Wenden". The term was borrowed also by non-Germanic
                            languages
                            > and denominates Slavic neighbors:
                            > Finnish: Venäjä "Russia", venäläis "Russian"
                            > Hungarian: vend "Slovenian of Hungary"
                            >
                            > Vandal: several ethymologies proposed, discussed also on this list.
                            > None looks to me convincing.
                            >
                            > Vinnili: don't know.
                            > It seems that the terms "Vandali" and "Vinnili" are not connected to
                            > "Veneti", nor to each other.
                            >
                            > Regarding Sclavinia/Slavonia, they are derived from the own
                            > degnitation of the old Slavs: Slovene. One possible etymology is
                            that
                            > quoted in my previous mail (slovo "word"), but there are also other
                            > hypotheses. From the time when the Avars dominated the Slavs and
                            used
                            > them as slaves, dates also the Latin term sclavus "slave".
                            > Why an old Germanic territory is named "Sclavinia", I can not
                            imagine,
                            > only speculations...
                            >
                            > I hope that someone more informed than me could help you better.
                            >
                            > Francisc"
                          • Francisc Czobor
                            Hi Sigmund, it seems that my message was lost in the previous reply, so I post it again. I didn t know about this claim of the Slovenians, but I can not take
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 6, 2001
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                              Hi Sigmund,

                              it seems that my message was lost in the previous reply, so I post it
                              again.
                              I didn't know about this claim of the Slovenians, but I can not take
                              it seriously.
                              The Veneti of the modern Veneto/Venezia region were not Slavs and
                              became relatively early romanized. There were no Slavs in the area
                              before the "ordinary" great slavic migration.

                              Francisc


                              --- In gothic-l@y..., "Sigmund" <sigmund@a...> wrote:
                              > Thank you so very much, Francisc,
                              >
                              > Glad you took your time. Your answer was highly elucidating and gave
                              me
                              > a prompt answer to my questions, and much of it was welcome news to
                              me.
                              >
                              > You probably know that modern days' Slovenian claim to be
                              descendants of
                              > non-Pripjat slavs, having migrated to this area north-east of Italy
                              long before
                              > the "ordinary" great slavic migrations and living alongside with
                              celtic tribes?
                              > I don't know what evidence they have for it and it is of course less
                              than
                              > tangential here in this forum, but I came to think of it when you
                              referred to
                              > "(probably Illyrian) tribe of the Veneti (the name is also connected
                              with the
                              > name of the region Venetia, now Venezia in NE Italy".
                              >
                              >
                              > Sclavus tue,
                              >
                              > Sigmund
                              > PS Glad you disregarded my anachronistic treatment of Jordanes. More
                              on
                              > that in my reply to Andreas Schwarcz. DS
                              >
                            • andreas.schwarcz@univie.ac.at
                              Dear Dirk, yes, I think the case of the Hevelli is similar. The oldest source mentioning them is the Bavarian Geographer ca.845 AD, who calls them Hehfeldi.
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 6, 2001
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                                Dear Dirk,
                                yes, I think the case of the Hevelli is similar. The oldest source
                                mentioning them is the Bavarian Geographer ca.845 AD, who calls
                                them Hehfeldi. Next are Widukind of Corvey, I, 35, "Sclavos, qui
                                dicuntur Hevelli" and Thietmar of Merseburg, IV, 29, "Stoderaniam
                                qui Heveldun dicuntur" and a charter of Otto I (MGH DO I 105) of
                                948 AD "provincia Heveldun". Their name is derived from the river
                                Havel, their proper slavic name seems to have been Stodor'ane.
                                There was a sanctuary of the god Triglav on the Harlungenberg near
                                Brandenburg and that may have had some influence on the
                                historizing misnaming of them as Heruli in the eleventh century.
                                But the citations with Hevelli or Heruli are clearly younger than the
                                ones cited above.
                                Kind regards
                                Andreas
                                Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                                Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
                                Universität Wien
                                Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
                                A-1010 Wien
                                Österreich
                                Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
                                Fax 0043/142-77/92-72
                              • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                ... the ... Hello Andreas, that seems plausible. I am surprised though that the name Heruli was still known after some 600 years afer they ceized to exist. Or
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 7, 2001
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                                  --- In gothic-l@y..., andreas.schwarcz@u... wrote:
                                  > Dear Dirk,
                                  > yes, I think the case of the Hevelli is similar. The oldest source
                                  > mentioning them is the Bavarian Geographer ca.845 AD, who calls
                                  > them Hehfeldi. Next are Widukind of Corvey, I, 35, "Sclavos, qui
                                  > dicuntur Hevelli" and Thietmar of Merseburg, IV, 29, "Stoderaniam
                                  > qui Heveldun dicuntur" and a charter of Otto I (MGH DO I 105) of
                                  > 948 AD "provincia Heveldun". Their name is derived from the river
                                  > Havel, their proper slavic name seems to have been Stodor'ane.
                                  > There was a sanctuary of the god Triglav on the Harlungenberg near
                                  > Brandenburg and that may have had some influence on the
                                  > historizing misnaming of them as Heruli in the eleventh century.
                                  > But the citations with Hevelli or Heruli are clearly younger than
                                  the
                                  > ones cited above.
                                  > Kind regards
                                  > Andreas


                                  Hello Andreas,

                                  that seems plausible. I am surprised though that the name Heruli was
                                  still known after some 600 years afer they ceized to exist. Or from
                                  another point of view, I am surpised that people like Helmold and/or
                                  Adam were so familiar with ancient authors like Procopius. But I
                                  agree, the placename Harlungenberge may have given them the idea of
                                  linking the Heveller/Heveldi (which was the German name for the
                                  Stodorane, i.e. Havel-dweller) with the Heruli.

                                  It makes one wonder to what extent ancient authors like Procopius,
                                  Jordanes, or even Ptolemy have slipped tribal names and events into
                                  their narratives only to show their familiarity with older sources.

                                  cheers,
                                  Dirk
                                • andreas.schwarcz@univie.ac.at
                                  Dear Oskar, on the whole I agree with Dirk on the Heruli or (philologically better) Eruli. I do not know any single book or monography on the Eruli either, but
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 7, 2001
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                                    Dear Oskar,
                                    on the whole I agree with Dirk on the Heruli or (philologically better)
                                    Eruli. I do not know any single book or monography on the Eruli
                                    either, but the last and newest word on them is the article "Heruler"
                                    (philology by G.Neumann, language, history and archeology by
                                    M.Taylor) in Hoops. Reallexikon der germanischen
                                    Altertumswissenschaften 2nd ed., vol.14. Berlin, New York 1999,
                                    pp.468-474, where you will also find a long and exhaustive
                                    bibliography on them.
                                    Kind regards
                                    Andreas Schwarcz
                                    Ao.Univ.Prof.Dr.Andreas Schwarcz
                                    Institut für österreichische Geschichtsforschung
                                    Universität Wien
                                    Dr.Karl Lueger-Ring 1
                                    A-1010 Wien
                                    Österreich
                                    Tel.0043/1/42-77/272-16
                                    Fax 0043/142-77/92-72
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