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Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

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  • dirk@smra.co.uk
    ... Hi Troels, this last question of yours had escaped my attention. I am no expert, but there is nothing inherently Bavarian or Alamannic in the grave goods.
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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      --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:

      > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
      > Alamanni?
      >
      > Troels

      Hi Troels,

      this last question of yours had escaped my attention. I am no expert,
      but there is nothing inherently Bavarian or Alamannic in the grave
      goods. There are however, local variantions in fibula styles,
      pottery-shapes etc. which are associated with the one or the other
      group or sub-groups. Especially for the Bavarians who grew together
      from many different tribes and ethnic groups it is naturally difficult
      to inditfy anything typical Bavarian.

      I have mentioned the Phalheim horse warriors in Bavaria many times
      before. These people were dressed and equipped in exclusively East
      Germanic/Byzantine/Italian fashion and for a long time they had
      even been identified as Herul mercenaries. However, the archaeologist
      Wilfried Menghin re-interpreted them as Alamanns. As you know, a few
      fibulae cannot be used to identify ethnic shifts as trade and commerce
      will have dispersed local styles swiftly.

      cheers,

      Dirk
    • Troels Brandt
      Hi Dirk In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854, 4855, 4856 and 4857. First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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        Hi Dirk

        In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854,
        4855, 4856 and 4857.

        First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
        discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
        Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
        primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
        not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was a
        boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
        settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
        describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
        Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
        Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.

        The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
        for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
        about this Fara several times without getting his background
        confirmed. If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
        why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
        Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
        that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
        geneologies in the Norse "literature".

        Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
        sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
        information we have about the Heruls. I agree that the Heruls split
        up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married into
        another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
        to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
        still guesswork.

        I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do I
        find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
        rule in Phalheim?

        The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes even
        called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training -
        this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars earlier
        discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
        several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
        warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
        and old people - and how could they keep their own religion? Read my
        note 63 as you read note 32.

        We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich was
        a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
        was not identical to the king in Pannonia.

        We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
        Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
        anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
        Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
        do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
        do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
        the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
        their neighbours - including the Lombards! His information is
        confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
        Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
        to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
        Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
        Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in Thule,
        and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
        by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
        contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
        should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
        the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
        makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
        covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
        Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

        I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
        of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
        investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
        the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.

        Concerning our earlier mails about Harlingen a member from Germanic
        List has told, that the name in Netherland probably derive from a
        Frisian word and not from Heruls. This does not change the
        explanation of the Ostfrisian Harlinger Land, which I am still trying
        to check.

        Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
        Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
        neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
        dispised Edda-"literature"?

        Troels


        --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
        > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
        > > Hi Dirk
        > >
        > > I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
        > > webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy
        > regarding
        > > Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about
        > proof
        > > and sources regarding the geneology below?
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Hi Troels,
        >
        > the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not
        > always identical or complete, but you will find bits of it in the
        > standard literature on the subject such as:
        >
        > Hartung, Wolfgang "Sueddeutschland in der fruhen Merowingerzeit.
        > Studien zu Gesellschaft, Herrschaft, Stammesbildung bei Alamannen
        und
        > Bajuwaren," Wiesbaden 1983
        >
        > some notes on the duke Fara are also in
        >
        > Eugen Ewig, "Die Merovinger und das Frankenreich",
        >
        > For a genealogy that is accessible on the internet, and which also
        has
        > virtually all of the family-tree presented below, see the 'British
        > Royal Geneologies' at:
        >
        > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~bct/public/genealogy/royal/#Barbarian
        >
        >
        > I know that you don't like the idea that members of the Herulic
        royal
        > house could have remained in the area, as you are normally keen to
        > argue that they migrated to Scandinavia. I suppose the possibly
        that
        > some of them stayed behind does not excluded the possibility that
        > others moved to Scandinavia.
        >
        > Looking at the 'usual' pattern when a people is defeated, it
        appears
        > to be that more often than not the defeated elite gets absorbed
        into
        > the new elites. This seems to hold true even for one-time mortal
        > enemies. For the victors it is probably good policy to pacify an
        area
        > with the help of the old elites, while at the same time removing
        the
        > thread of the old leaders becoming a 'rallying point' for
        resistance.
        > What is even more important, there were often pre-existing family
        > links between the ruling elites of the different tribes, that would
        > have facilitated the integration of the defeated elite. In fact,
        often
        > the victorious king sought to underscore the legitimacy of his rule
        by
        > marrying a princess or queen of the defeated people. (The Langobard
        > Wacho married a Gepidic women and later a Herulic princess with the
        > name Silinga. There daughters were married off to Frankish kings at
        > Cologne (Wisigarda's grave under the Cathedral of Cologne))
        >
        > For the defeated elite it must be the most daunting and desperate
        > thought to give up all pre-existing dynastic links and claims that
        > could support a continued power base in the area. What should also
        not
        > be underestimated is that many of the 'barbarian leaders' were
        > accustomed to a life-style in Roman villas in a fairly moderate
        > climate. To abandon all this consciously cannot have been the first
        > and preferred choice. Thus, if any of the Herulic princes could
        > establish himself in the local areas, with the help of powerful
        > relatives, preferably at a former Roman centre like Augsburg,
        Passau
        > or Wuerzburg he would probably have preferred this to the
        uncertainty
        > of a life in a remote northern country, which literally must have
        > seem like the end of the world to them. But again, some of them may
        > not have been able to establish themselves locally, an the trek to
        > Scandinavia was the only option for them.
        >
        > What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members
        of
        > the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people
        of
        > several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
        > Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite,
        without
        > any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
        > been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known
        to
        > have formed a large part of the population in these areas.
        >
        > cheers,
        >
        > Dirk
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
        > > Alamanni?
        > >
        > > Troels
        > >
        > > --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hi Cory and Keth,
        > > >
        > > > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
        > > influences
        > > > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian
        ducal
        > > > house, the Agilofings.
        > > >
        > > > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree
        looks
        > > > something like this:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
        > > >
        > > > son:
        > > > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
        > > >
        > > > first son of Fara:
        > > > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
        > > > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
        > > >
        > > > second son of Fara:
        > > > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
        > > > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
        > > >
        > > > children of Garibald:
        > > > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic
        > Kings)
        > > > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died
        in
        > > > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son
        > was
        > > > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
        > > > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
        > > > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the
        complicated
        > > > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at
        > least
        > > a
        > > > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > cheers,
        > > >
        > > > Dirk
      • dirk@smra.co.uk
        ... 4854, ... a ... Hi Troels, sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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          --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
          > Hi Dirk
          >
          > In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851,
          4854,
          > 4855, 4856 and 4857.
          >
          > First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
          > discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
          > Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
          > primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
          > not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was
          a
          > boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
          > settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
          > describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
          > Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
          > Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.
          >


          Hi Troels,

          sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that
          some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that everything
          Germanic is Scandinavian, migrated from Scandinavia or back to
          Scandinavia. This does not even need to originate from 'bad'
          intentions, but since there is usually little opposition to these
          views from others, I seemed to end up pointing to the significance of
          other areas and peoples as well.

          In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
          borders for the study of Germanic history. However, I must admit the
          fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
          slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
          but that is resolved now :)



          > The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
          > for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
          > about this Fara several times without getting his background
          > confirmed.


          There are at least two Bavarian dukes with the name Fara. Both were
          'only' dukes of parts of Bavaria or dukes 'in' Bavaria as opposed to
          'of' Bavaria. At least that is my understanding.



          If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
          > why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
          > Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
          > that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
          > geneologies in the Norse "literature".


          The Agilofing genealogy is not derived from legends or sagas, but at
          any rate, the exact relationships among the dukes is not undisputed.
          I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a
          new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
          Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is one
          of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I know
          you don't agree, which is fine.




          > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
          > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
          > information we have about the Heruls.


          But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
          receives too little attention when people try to re-construct history
          on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use' of
          this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people like
          Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
          behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
          theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
          leads if sources are scarce.

          I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
          events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else around
          it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability and
          intentions of the authors of the sources.




          > I agree that the Heruls split
          > up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married
          into
          > another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
          > to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
          > still guesswork.

          >
          > I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do
          I
          > find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
          > rule in Phalheim?


          I am not aware that any particular area is assigned to Fara, but that
          could be my ignorance. Fara II ruled in North Bavaria around Wuerzburg
          as far as I know. According to the genealogy Fara I decendents became
          dukes of all Bavaria in the form of Garibald I and Sindualt's son
          Tassilo. I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
          Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but shall
          try to dig it up again.





          >
          > The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes
          even
          > called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training
          -
          > this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars
          earlier
          > discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
          > several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
          > warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
          > and old people - and how could they keep their own religion?


          I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
          Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of ruling
          families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube Suevi,
          Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.

          There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall in
          Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire. After a
          while they integrated in the local population and service along the
          Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
          formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with the
          decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
          chieftain-families originating from former army service placing there
          head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.

          The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
          Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
          lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It is
          possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
          that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


          Read my
          > note 63 as you read note 32.
          >
          > We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich
          was
          > a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
          > was not identical to the king in Pannonia.
          >
          > We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
          > Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
          > anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
          > Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
          > do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
          > do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
          > the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
          > their neighbours - including the Lombards!



          There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled over
          a large majority. I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
          your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be seen
          as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
          people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?



          His information is
          > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
          > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
          > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
          > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
          > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
          Thule,
          > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
          > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
          > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
          > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
          > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
          > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
          > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
          > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).


          In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
          reliability of Procopius.




          > I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
          > of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
          > investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
          > the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.



          That would really be of interest to me. These Brennones or Brents were
          a barely romanised Celtic people in Tyrol that was renowned for its
          'wildness' even in the sevenths and eights century.



          >
          > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
          > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
          > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
          > dispised Edda-"literature"?


          What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not be
          further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use as
          historical source.


          cheers,

          Dirk
        • Troels Brandt
          Hi Dirk ... I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of which country you got your education in - even among professionals (10 years
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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            Hi Dirk

            --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
            > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
            >
            .........
            > In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
            > borders for the study of Germanic history.

            I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of
            which country you got your education in - even among professionals
            (10 years ago archaeology more than history). There will always be a
            local element in the education and missing elements from other
            countries causing different points of view. Neither you or I are
            exceptions.

            > However, I must admit the
            > fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
            > slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
            > but that is resolved now :)


            I did not trust this information, and I don't regard it as important,
            that a person is mentioned in a geneology as a Herulian prince. We do
            not know how to use this information which could just be due to
            marriage or exile. My website does not pretend to contain all
            information about the Heruls.


            > I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send
            for a
            > new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
            > Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is
            one
            > of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I
            know
            > you don't agree, which is fine.
            >

            Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
            between Andreas, you and me
            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
            - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

            ........
            > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
            common
            > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
            > > information we have about the Heruls.
            >
            >
            > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
            > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
            history
            > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
            of
            > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
            like
            > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
            > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
            > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
            > leads if sources are scarce.
            >
            > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
            > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
            around
            > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
            and
            > intentions of the authors of the sources.
            >

            I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
            history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
            of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected - I
            think we mix sources and testing tools.

            .......
            > I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
            > Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but
            shall
            > try to dig it up again.


            I have tried to search for "Phalheim", but found only one message at
            Germanic List.

            ........
            > I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
            > Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of
            ruling
            > families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube
            Suevi,
            > Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.


            Actually their kingdom was supposed to be north of Danube in Moravia,
            Wiener Viertel and Marchfeld.


            > There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall
            in
            > Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire.
            After a
            > while they integrated in the local population and service along the
            > Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
            > formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with
            the
            > decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
            > chieftain-families originating from former army service placing
            there
            > head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.
            >
            > The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
            > Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
            > lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It
            is
            > possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
            > that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


            We already heard about the Heruls in the 3rd century at the Black Sea
            and in Frisia. The first mercenaries were mentioned in the 4th
            century (probably Western Heruls) while the Eastern Heruls probably
            followed the Huns to Pannonia as the Ostrogoths. However it is
            natural that the mercenaries were mentioned more often than the
            people behind, which did not interest the Roman writers.

            >
            > There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled
            over
            > a large majority.


            Probably, but Procopius wrote " .. superior in number ..".


            > I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
            > your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be
            seen
            > as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
            > people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?


            I answered this below. If you want to hear my guess, I think they
            formed a small but strong army (1000-5000 warriors with family)
            followed by people they met on their way, and I expect they only
            formed a superior class in Scandinavia. This sounds nearly like your
            own theory about Pannonia, mentioned above - but the explanation is
            only a guess.

            .......
            >
            > His information is
            > > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
            > > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no
            reason
            > > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless
            the
            > > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of
            Justinian.
            > > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
            > Thule,
            > > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to
            Illyria
            > > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The
            last
            > > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
            > > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story
            about
            > > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
            > > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
            > > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier
            discussed
            > > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

            >
            > In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
            > reliability of Procopius.


            Maybe this is your view, but then I would not even mention Fara if I
            were you.

            ........
            > >
            > > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
            > > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
            > > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
            > > dispised Edda-"literature"?
            >
            >
            > What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not
            be
            > further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use
            as
            > historical source.
            >

            I did not necessarily refer to you.

            Kindly regards
            Troels
          • jpisc98357@aol.com
            In a message dated 8/7/01 4:55:37 AM Central Daylight Time, dirk@smra.co.uk ... Best regards, John Piscopo http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com PO Box 137 Western
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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              In a message dated 8/7/01 4:55:37 AM Central Daylight Time, dirk@...
              > Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a new king from Thule when there
              > were likely several members of the Herulic dynasty around in close
              > proximity, I don't know. But it is one of these reports that I personally
              > find improbable anyway, but I know you don't agree, which is fine.
              >
              > Dear Dirk,
              >
              > While members of the Royal Family of the Heruls may have been around
              > there might not have been one of age and experience to serve as War Lord in
              > a time when one was desperately needed. Military necessity may have
              > trumped the convenience of a local child or incompetent. Assume a council
              > of chiefs with the decision making power to choose the new War Lord, with
              > enemies on all frontiers they might have asked a remote royal relative to
              >

              Best regards, John Piscopo
              http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com
              PO Box 137
              Western Springs, IL 60558-0137
              (708)246-7111


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • dirk@smra.co.uk
              ... Hi Troels, saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read Procopius and to
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 8, 2001
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                >
                > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                > between Andreas, you and me
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

                Hi Troels,

                saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
                common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read Procopius
                and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
                all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
                also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have used.
                You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
                vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For example
                some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
                Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius could
                have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a distorted
                picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
                some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
                from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his informers
                is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
                not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
                actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
                interpretations must be considered.









                > ........
                > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                > common
                > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                > > > information we have about the Heruls.
                > >
                > >
                > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                > history
                > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
                > of
                > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
                > like
                > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                > > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                > > leads if sources are scarce.
                > >
                > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                > around
                > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
                > and
                > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                > >
                >
                > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                > history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
                > of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected -
                I
                > think we mix sources and testing tools.


                Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
                history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
                impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
                events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why he
                may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
                expected instead of blindly believing his every word.

                cheers,

                Dirk
              • Troels Brandt
                Hi Dirk I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago. When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron, Ellegaard
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 8, 2001
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                  Hi Dirk

                  I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago.

                  When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron,
                  Ellegaard e.t.c. - just like you - and some Danish literature too. I
                  was really surprised when I afterwards read a translation of
                  Procopius' own text. I am sure I had not made so many mistakes in the
                  beginning, if I had first read Procopius, then the other authors,
                  then the comparable sources and then Procopius again.

                  My advise is: Don't do the same mistake as I did. I am glad that only
                  a few people heard about my preliminary results based on the indirect
                  sources alone.

                  Troels


                  --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                  > > between Andreas, you and me
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                  > > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.
                  >
                  > Hi Troels,
                  >
                  > saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
                  > common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read
                  Procopius
                  > and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
                  > all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
                  > also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have
                  used.
                  > You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
                  > vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For
                  example
                  > some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
                  > Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius
                  could
                  > have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a
                  distorted
                  > picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
                  > some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
                  > from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his
                  informers
                  > is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
                  > not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
                  > actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
                  > interpretations must be considered.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > ........
                  > > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                  > > common
                  > > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                  > > > > information we have about the Heruls.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                  > > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                  > > history
                  > > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources.
                  Actual 'use'
                  > > of
                  > > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to
                  people
                  > > like
                  > > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                  > > > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call
                  it
                  > > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the
                  best
                  > > > leads if sources are scarce.
                  > > >
                  > > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                  > > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                  > > around
                  > > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the
                  reliability
                  > > and
                  > > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                  > > history based on our expectations according to common sense
                  instead
                  > > of using the sources we have - even when the result is
                  unexpected -
                  > I
                  > > think we mix sources and testing tools.
                  >
                  >
                  > Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
                  > history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
                  > impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
                  > events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why
                  he
                  > may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
                  > expected instead of blindly believing his every word.
                  >
                  > cheers,
                  >
                  > Dirk
                • dirk@smra.co.uk
                  Hi Troells, one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the name of the Herulic king Datius , who according to Procopius travelled from
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                    Hi Troells,

                    one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the
                    name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                    travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                    likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given to
                    an otherwise unknown king?

                    It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share a
                    name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop St
                    Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of the
                    time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                    was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                    Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his name
                    might have been an important political message at the time. This is of
                    course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                    i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.


                    thanks
                    Dirk
                  • keth@online.no
                    Hi Dirk, I saw it mentioned in one of the books two days ago, that Datius may have been the same legendary name as occurs in Saxo Grammaticus. But there it
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                      Hi Dirk,
                      I saw it mentioned in one of the books two days ago, that
                      "Datius" may have been the same legendary name as occurs
                      in Saxo Grammaticus. But there it was king "Dan". (was
                      it in Menghin? Am not sure any more)

                      Keth


                      >Hi Troells,
                      >
                      >one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the
                      >name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                      >travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                      >likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given to
                      >an otherwise unknown king?
                      >
                      >It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share a
                      >name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop St
                      >Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of the
                      > time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                      >was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                      >Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his name
                      >might have been an important political message at the time. This is of
                      >course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                      >i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.
                      >
                      >
                      >thanks
                      >Dirk
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                      >
                      >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Troels Brandt
                      Hi Dirk I don t have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to return in the
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                        Hi Dirk

                        I don't have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about
                        the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to return
                        in the weekend.

                        However I remember a discussion about a connection to Danus (Dane or
                        Dan, which was a common royal name in the Danish cronicles) - and
                        this could again lead to the discussion Dania/Dacia, which you
                        mention.

                        The first candidate - whom he succeeded - died by a disease among the
                        Danes, so there might even be a connection there. Datius probably
                        died in Dacia, but that was after Procopius wrote the name.

                        I have also seen a connection mentioned to one of the first Svea-
                        kings in Ynglingatal, Dag (=Day).

                        If we remove the -us or -ius, the name is very short. I believe
                        misunderstandings in such cases are likely, and also the combination
                        is probable in many languages.

                        However Datius expelled the Herulian general Suartuas. I am sure he
                        remembered his name and Procopius probably listened to Suartuas. I
                        don't think he was mixed up with or got his name from a Milanese
                        bishop.

                        Troels





                        --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                        > Hi Troells,
                        >
                        > one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of
                        the
                        > name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                        > travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                        > likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given
                        to
                        > an otherwise unknown king?
                        >
                        > It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share
                        a
                        > name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop
                        St
                        > Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of
                        the
                        > time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                        > was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                        > Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his
                        name
                        > might have been an important political message at the time. This is
                        of
                        > course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                        > i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.
                        >
                        >
                        > thanks
                        > Dirk
                      • dirk@smra.co.uk
                        ... return ... the ... Hi Troels, that was not really what I meant, but anyway, here is the promised URL to an article by Menghin, in which he re-interprets
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 10, 2001
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                          --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                          > Hi Dirk
                          >
                          > I don't have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about
                          > the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to
                          return
                          > in the weekend.
                          >
                          > However I remember a discussion about a connection to Danus (Dane or
                          > Dan, which was a common royal name in the Danish cronicles) - and
                          > this could again lead to the discussion Dania/Dacia, which you
                          > mention.
                          >
                          > The first candidate - whom he succeeded - died by a disease among
                          the
                          > Danes, so there might even be a connection there. Datius probably
                          > died in Dacia, but that was after Procopius wrote the name.
                          >
                          > I have also seen a connection mentioned to one of the first Svea-
                          > kings in Ynglingatal, Dag (=Day).
                          >
                          > If we remove the -us or -ius, the name is very short. I believe
                          > misunderstandings in such cases are likely, and also the combination
                          > is probable in many languages.
                          >
                          > However Datius expelled the Herulian general Suartuas. I am sure he
                          > remembered his name and Procopius probably listened to Suartuas. I
                          > don't think he was mixed up with or got his name from a Milanese
                          > bishop.
                          >
                          > Troels



                          Hi Troels,

                          that was not really what I meant, but anyway, here is the promised URL
                          to an article by Menghin, in which he re-interprets the Phalheim
                          horsemen as Alamannic noblemen.

                          http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/pfahl.htm

                          The site is difficult to read, but other articles are also of
                          interest. BTW, I have heard that the catalog of the recent exhibition
                          of the Phalheim horse warriors in the Germanische National
                          Museum in Nuremberg, stresses the East Germanic/Byzantine nature of
                          their equipment more than Menghin did.

                          cheers,
                          Dirk


                          PS You mentioned the Varnies, or better Varni in an earlier message.
                          As far as I know not much is known about them. They were closely
                          associated with the Thuringians and may actually have been part of the
                          Thuringians or became part of the Thuringian kingdom as it expanded
                          north-westwards. Together with the Western Heruls, the Varni (and
                          Thuringians) were allied with the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. Apparently
                          , Visigothic kings like Euric, but also Theoderic the Great, sought
                          their alliance as counter-balance against the Franks. A Varnian with
                          the name Agiwulf reached a high-ranking position at the Visigothic
                          court and was one-time duke of the formerly Suevic areas of north-west
                          Spain. Like the Western Heruls, the Varni seemed to have had some
                          sort of minor kingdom at the Lower Rhine area. I don't know whether or
                          not the river and town name Warnow and the town name Warnemuende (at
                          the Baltic Sea) have anything to do with the Varni, but I think it is
                          rather unlikely.
                        • Troels Brandt
                          Hi Dirk Thanks for the information about Phalheim. I have not found my original note about the Brents, which had something to do with Paulus Diaconus, but
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 12, 2001
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                            Hi Dirk

                            Thanks for the information about Phalheim.

                            I have not found my original note about the Brents, which had
                            something to do with Paulus Diaconus, but anyway I can refer you to
                            Ludwig Schmidt. In his "Die Ostgermanen" you can – at least in my
                            version - at page 558 (Die Gepiden, Taifalen, Heruler) read about
                            this Sinduald.

                            Regarding Fara I had some progress – also reading Schmidt again – as
                            300 Heruls joined the Persian War in 530 with an officer named Fara
                            (Source: Procopius' Persian Wars) and around 534 this Fara commanded
                            400 Heruls against the Vandals. He might be the Herulian prince (or a
                            relative) dying in 535 in Bavaria – making (if correct) this dynasty
                            a part of the Herulian mercenaries. In this way he belonged to the
                            group crossing the Danube and settling in Illyria in 512 (around
                            Singidudum) – opposite the royal group leaving earlier for
                            Scandinavia. The Illyrian group was split several times after 512,
                            and some of their nobles may have joined other people like Sinduald
                            and maybe Fara. However we can't be sure we are talking about the
                            same Fara.

                            Ludwig Schmidt had also noticed Harlinger Land, Herilungoburg and
                            some other place names containing Harl-. He doubted there was a
                            connection to the Heruls, but as he did not mention "your" old
                            versions of Harlingen he possibly missed a point. He combined the
                            names with the Harlungen dynasty. I am still searching for the
                            Harlingen-source.

                            After what I have read the Varnies lived in the Mecklenburg area.
                            Later they went southwest ending as a part of the Saxons. However I
                            have never been interested in the Varnies as you have been interested
                            in the Saxons so you probably know better.

                            Troels
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