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Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

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  • dirk@smra.co.uk
    ... of ... of ... without ... to ... use locals) ... in ... university ... abroad, ... journeys. ... armament ... found ... Hi Keth, I am not exactly sure
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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      --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
      > Hi Dirk,
      > You wrote:
      >
      > >What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members
      of
      > >the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people
      of
      > >several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
      > >Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite,
      without
      > >any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
      > >been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known
      to
      > >have formed a large part of the population in these areas.
      >
      > I believe it was somewhat different. (but of course they also did
      use locals)
      > The young people in Norway often left home and travelled South.
      > Maybe to do mercenary service. They also learned about peoples and
      > trade routes that way. And they gained honour when they participated
      in
      > battles. Thus they could come home later with so to speak a
      "university
      > diploma" comparing with today, when young people are still sent
      abroad,
      > because that is considered valuable asset for the young.
      > Norway has a continual tradition of young men going on long
      journeys.
      > Just think that the Norwegian merchant fleet used to be the worlds
      > third. Only after USA and Britain. But pro capita it was the worlds
      > largest. It was alays the ocean, the ocean. Since time immemorial.
      >
      > The Heruls were known for their "velocitas" and their "light
      armament"
      > That is typical of a people coming from a mountainous country.
      > They never lived right by the sea's shore. Old houses are always
      found
      > somewhat uphill from the place where they had their boats.
      > And the boats was the "automobile" of those days.
      > It was still that way in W. Norway around 1950 or 60:
      > Far more people had a boat than a car. And they used the boat
      > for everything: fishing, shopping, going to church etc..
      > So they had very strong arms (all the rowing)
      > Also running home for the supper was maybe 10 minutes uphill.
      > So they had very stong legs. Those were the good soldiers.
      >
      > Just go to Switzerland or Austria, and you still find young
      > people in fantastic physical shape. It is the mountains
      > that make them so fit. (just like the Columbian cyclists
      > or the Ethiopian runners)



      Hi Keth,

      I am not exactly sure what you are arguing. The Danube/Panonnia Heruls
      were no mountain people and they did not live by the sea.
      Nevertheless, they may have been in good physical shape, although bone
      analysis ususally showed that people at these time died at around 40
      years and women a little earlier. They usually suffered mal-nutrition
      and/or severe/growth-impairing deceases at some stages in their lives.
      But how does that relate to a possible migration to Scandinavia?





      > >> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
      > Yes, this is the man who was king of several peoples in W.Norway.
      > See the Getica (in the beginning)


      No this is Roduulf, last king of the Heruls at the Danube. There was
      also a Thuringian king with that name. It seems to have been a popular
      name at the time.



      > >> > son:
      > >> > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
      > In Old Norse there is the corresponding name "Farþegn".
      > It means something like "SeaServant", hence has a meaning that
      > indicates a marine environment.
      >


      Fara, is a Germanic term attested for the Langobards and denoting a
      warrior group, somthing like a Hansa as far as I know. It is probably
      related to German 'Fahren', I suppose.




      > I have also been reading Eugippius, and there also found
      > many names on F. "Ferderuch" for example.
      > Also: "Feletheus", "Onoulf", "Flaccitheus", "Feva", "Giso".
      > Any ideas what they might nmean? Analogies etc?


      Some of the names like Feletheus, Feva etc. are those of Rugian kings
      near Passau. I don't know what their names mean. One Rugian
      king/prince -I think- was also called Fridrich, a name that is still
      very much in use today.


      best regards
      Dirk
    • dirk@smra.co.uk
      ... Hi again Keth and Troels, while Keth mentionend this Scandinavian king Roduulf who came to Theoderic, because he despised his homeland so much this seems
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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        > >> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
        > Yes, this is the man who was king of several peoples in W.Norway.
        > See the Getica (in the beginning)
        >

        Hi again Keth and Troels,

        while Keth mentionend this Scandinavian king Roduulf who came to
        Theoderic, because he despised his homeland so much this seems to
        underscore how desperate any Herulic prince must have been to migrate
        to Scandinavia. Don't get me wrong, I find Scandinavia most beautiful,
        but if 6th century people were getting reports about a country that
        was so awfull that even a king would leave it if he could that must
        have been a discouraging prospect for any Herulic tribesman who was
        accustomed to the milder climate of Pannonia and even the sub-tropical
        climate of the Black Sea. Remember, Jordanes/Cassiordorus had already
        described Scandinavia as a place were humans can hardly live and that
        was cruel even to beasts.

        cheers,

        Dirk
      • dirk@smra.co.uk
        ... Hi Troels, this last question of yours had escaped my attention. I am no expert, but there is nothing inherently Bavarian or Alamannic in the grave goods.
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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          --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:

          > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
          > Alamanni?
          >
          > Troels

          Hi Troels,

          this last question of yours had escaped my attention. I am no expert,
          but there is nothing inherently Bavarian or Alamannic in the grave
          goods. There are however, local variantions in fibula styles,
          pottery-shapes etc. which are associated with the one or the other
          group or sub-groups. Especially for the Bavarians who grew together
          from many different tribes and ethnic groups it is naturally difficult
          to inditfy anything typical Bavarian.

          I have mentioned the Phalheim horse warriors in Bavaria many times
          before. These people were dressed and equipped in exclusively East
          Germanic/Byzantine/Italian fashion and for a long time they had
          even been identified as Herul mercenaries. However, the archaeologist
          Wilfried Menghin re-interpreted them as Alamanns. As you know, a few
          fibulae cannot be used to identify ethnic shifts as trade and commerce
          will have dispersed local styles swiftly.

          cheers,

          Dirk
        • Troels Brandt
          Hi Dirk In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854, 4855, 4856 and 4857. First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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            Hi Dirk

            In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854,
            4855, 4856 and 4857.

            First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
            discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
            Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
            primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
            not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was a
            boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
            settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
            describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
            Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
            Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.

            The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
            for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
            about this Fara several times without getting his background
            confirmed. If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
            why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
            Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
            that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
            geneologies in the Norse "literature".

            Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
            sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
            information we have about the Heruls. I agree that the Heruls split
            up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married into
            another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
            to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
            still guesswork.

            I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do I
            find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
            rule in Phalheim?

            The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes even
            called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training -
            this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars earlier
            discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
            several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
            warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
            and old people - and how could they keep their own religion? Read my
            note 63 as you read note 32.

            We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich was
            a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
            was not identical to the king in Pannonia.

            We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
            Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
            anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
            Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
            do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
            do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
            the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
            their neighbours - including the Lombards! His information is
            confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
            Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
            to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
            Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
            Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in Thule,
            and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
            by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
            contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
            should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
            the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
            makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
            covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
            Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

            I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
            of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
            investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
            the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.

            Concerning our earlier mails about Harlingen a member from Germanic
            List has told, that the name in Netherland probably derive from a
            Frisian word and not from Heruls. This does not change the
            explanation of the Ostfrisian Harlinger Land, which I am still trying
            to check.

            Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
            Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
            neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
            dispised Edda-"literature"?

            Troels


            --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
            > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
            > > Hi Dirk
            > >
            > > I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
            > > webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy
            > regarding
            > > Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about
            > proof
            > > and sources regarding the geneology below?
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hi Troels,
            >
            > the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not
            > always identical or complete, but you will find bits of it in the
            > standard literature on the subject such as:
            >
            > Hartung, Wolfgang "Sueddeutschland in der fruhen Merowingerzeit.
            > Studien zu Gesellschaft, Herrschaft, Stammesbildung bei Alamannen
            und
            > Bajuwaren," Wiesbaden 1983
            >
            > some notes on the duke Fara are also in
            >
            > Eugen Ewig, "Die Merovinger und das Frankenreich",
            >
            > For a genealogy that is accessible on the internet, and which also
            has
            > virtually all of the family-tree presented below, see the 'British
            > Royal Geneologies' at:
            >
            > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~bct/public/genealogy/royal/#Barbarian
            >
            >
            > I know that you don't like the idea that members of the Herulic
            royal
            > house could have remained in the area, as you are normally keen to
            > argue that they migrated to Scandinavia. I suppose the possibly
            that
            > some of them stayed behind does not excluded the possibility that
            > others moved to Scandinavia.
            >
            > Looking at the 'usual' pattern when a people is defeated, it
            appears
            > to be that more often than not the defeated elite gets absorbed
            into
            > the new elites. This seems to hold true even for one-time mortal
            > enemies. For the victors it is probably good policy to pacify an
            area
            > with the help of the old elites, while at the same time removing
            the
            > thread of the old leaders becoming a 'rallying point' for
            resistance.
            > What is even more important, there were often pre-existing family
            > links between the ruling elites of the different tribes, that would
            > have facilitated the integration of the defeated elite. In fact,
            often
            > the victorious king sought to underscore the legitimacy of his rule
            by
            > marrying a princess or queen of the defeated people. (The Langobard
            > Wacho married a Gepidic women and later a Herulic princess with the
            > name Silinga. There daughters were married off to Frankish kings at
            > Cologne (Wisigarda's grave under the Cathedral of Cologne))
            >
            > For the defeated elite it must be the most daunting and desperate
            > thought to give up all pre-existing dynastic links and claims that
            > could support a continued power base in the area. What should also
            not
            > be underestimated is that many of the 'barbarian leaders' were
            > accustomed to a life-style in Roman villas in a fairly moderate
            > climate. To abandon all this consciously cannot have been the first
            > and preferred choice. Thus, if any of the Herulic princes could
            > establish himself in the local areas, with the help of powerful
            > relatives, preferably at a former Roman centre like Augsburg,
            Passau
            > or Wuerzburg he would probably have preferred this to the
            uncertainty
            > of a life in a remote northern country, which literally must have
            > seem like the end of the world to them. But again, some of them may
            > not have been able to establish themselves locally, an the trek to
            > Scandinavia was the only option for them.
            >
            > What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members
            of
            > the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people
            of
            > several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
            > Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite,
            without
            > any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
            > been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known
            to
            > have formed a large part of the population in these areas.
            >
            > cheers,
            >
            > Dirk
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > >
            > > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
            > > Alamanni?
            > >
            > > Troels
            > >
            > > --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hi Cory and Keth,
            > > >
            > > > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
            > > influences
            > > > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian
            ducal
            > > > house, the Agilofings.
            > > >
            > > > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree
            looks
            > > > something like this:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
            > > >
            > > > son:
            > > > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
            > > >
            > > > first son of Fara:
            > > > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
            > > > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
            > > >
            > > > second son of Fara:
            > > > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
            > > > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
            > > >
            > > > children of Garibald:
            > > > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic
            > Kings)
            > > > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died
            in
            > > > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son
            > was
            > > > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
            > > > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
            > > > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the
            complicated
            > > > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at
            > least
            > > a
            > > > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > cheers,
            > > >
            > > > Dirk
          • dirk@smra.co.uk
            ... 4854, ... a ... Hi Troels, sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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              --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
              > Hi Dirk
              >
              > In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851,
              4854,
              > 4855, 4856 and 4857.
              >
              > First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
              > discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
              > Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
              > primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
              > not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was
              a
              > boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
              > settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
              > describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
              > Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
              > Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.
              >


              Hi Troels,

              sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that
              some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that everything
              Germanic is Scandinavian, migrated from Scandinavia or back to
              Scandinavia. This does not even need to originate from 'bad'
              intentions, but since there is usually little opposition to these
              views from others, I seemed to end up pointing to the significance of
              other areas and peoples as well.

              In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
              borders for the study of Germanic history. However, I must admit the
              fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
              slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
              but that is resolved now :)



              > The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
              > for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
              > about this Fara several times without getting his background
              > confirmed.


              There are at least two Bavarian dukes with the name Fara. Both were
              'only' dukes of parts of Bavaria or dukes 'in' Bavaria as opposed to
              'of' Bavaria. At least that is my understanding.



              If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
              > why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
              > Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
              > that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
              > geneologies in the Norse "literature".


              The Agilofing genealogy is not derived from legends or sagas, but at
              any rate, the exact relationships among the dukes is not undisputed.
              I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a
              new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
              Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is one
              of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I know
              you don't agree, which is fine.




              > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
              > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
              > information we have about the Heruls.


              But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
              receives too little attention when people try to re-construct history
              on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use' of
              this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people like
              Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
              behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
              theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
              leads if sources are scarce.

              I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
              events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else around
              it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability and
              intentions of the authors of the sources.




              > I agree that the Heruls split
              > up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married
              into
              > another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
              > to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
              > still guesswork.

              >
              > I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do
              I
              > find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
              > rule in Phalheim?


              I am not aware that any particular area is assigned to Fara, but that
              could be my ignorance. Fara II ruled in North Bavaria around Wuerzburg
              as far as I know. According to the genealogy Fara I decendents became
              dukes of all Bavaria in the form of Garibald I and Sindualt's son
              Tassilo. I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
              Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but shall
              try to dig it up again.





              >
              > The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes
              even
              > called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training
              -
              > this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars
              earlier
              > discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
              > several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
              > warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
              > and old people - and how could they keep their own religion?


              I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
              Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of ruling
              families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube Suevi,
              Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.

              There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall in
              Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire. After a
              while they integrated in the local population and service along the
              Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
              formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with the
              decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
              chieftain-families originating from former army service placing there
              head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.

              The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
              Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
              lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It is
              possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
              that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


              Read my
              > note 63 as you read note 32.
              >
              > We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich
              was
              > a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
              > was not identical to the king in Pannonia.
              >
              > We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
              > Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
              > anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
              > Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
              > do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
              > do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
              > the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
              > their neighbours - including the Lombards!



              There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled over
              a large majority. I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
              your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be seen
              as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
              people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?



              His information is
              > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
              > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
              > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
              > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
              > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
              Thule,
              > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
              > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
              > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
              > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
              > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
              > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
              > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
              > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).


              In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
              reliability of Procopius.




              > I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
              > of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
              > investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
              > the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.



              That would really be of interest to me. These Brennones or Brents were
              a barely romanised Celtic people in Tyrol that was renowned for its
              'wildness' even in the sevenths and eights century.



              >
              > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
              > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
              > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
              > dispised Edda-"literature"?


              What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not be
              further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use as
              historical source.


              cheers,

              Dirk
            • Troels Brandt
              Hi Dirk ... I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of which country you got your education in - even among professionals (10 years
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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                Hi Dirk

                --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                >
                .........
                > In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
                > borders for the study of Germanic history.

                I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of
                which country you got your education in - even among professionals
                (10 years ago archaeology more than history). There will always be a
                local element in the education and missing elements from other
                countries causing different points of view. Neither you or I are
                exceptions.

                > However, I must admit the
                > fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
                > slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
                > but that is resolved now :)


                I did not trust this information, and I don't regard it as important,
                that a person is mentioned in a geneology as a Herulian prince. We do
                not know how to use this information which could just be due to
                marriage or exile. My website does not pretend to contain all
                information about the Heruls.


                > I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send
                for a
                > new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
                > Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is
                one
                > of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I
                know
                > you don't agree, which is fine.
                >

                Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                between Andreas, you and me
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

                ........
                > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                common
                > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                > > information we have about the Heruls.
                >
                >
                > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                history
                > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
                of
                > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
                like
                > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                > leads if sources are scarce.
                >
                > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                around
                > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
                and
                > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                >

                I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
                of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected - I
                think we mix sources and testing tools.

                .......
                > I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
                > Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but
                shall
                > try to dig it up again.


                I have tried to search for "Phalheim", but found only one message at
                Germanic List.

                ........
                > I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
                > Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of
                ruling
                > families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube
                Suevi,
                > Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.


                Actually their kingdom was supposed to be north of Danube in Moravia,
                Wiener Viertel and Marchfeld.


                > There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall
                in
                > Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire.
                After a
                > while they integrated in the local population and service along the
                > Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
                > formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with
                the
                > decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
                > chieftain-families originating from former army service placing
                there
                > head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.
                >
                > The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
                > Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
                > lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It
                is
                > possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
                > that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


                We already heard about the Heruls in the 3rd century at the Black Sea
                and in Frisia. The first mercenaries were mentioned in the 4th
                century (probably Western Heruls) while the Eastern Heruls probably
                followed the Huns to Pannonia as the Ostrogoths. However it is
                natural that the mercenaries were mentioned more often than the
                people behind, which did not interest the Roman writers.

                >
                > There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled
                over
                > a large majority.


                Probably, but Procopius wrote " .. superior in number ..".


                > I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
                > your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be
                seen
                > as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
                > people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?


                I answered this below. If you want to hear my guess, I think they
                formed a small but strong army (1000-5000 warriors with family)
                followed by people they met on their way, and I expect they only
                formed a superior class in Scandinavia. This sounds nearly like your
                own theory about Pannonia, mentioned above - but the explanation is
                only a guess.

                .......
                >
                > His information is
                > > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
                > > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no
                reason
                > > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless
                the
                > > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of
                Justinian.
                > > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
                > Thule,
                > > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to
                Illyria
                > > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The
                last
                > > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
                > > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story
                about
                > > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
                > > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
                > > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier
                discussed
                > > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

                >
                > In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
                > reliability of Procopius.


                Maybe this is your view, but then I would not even mention Fara if I
                were you.

                ........
                > >
                > > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
                > > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
                > > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
                > > dispised Edda-"literature"?
                >
                >
                > What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not
                be
                > further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use
                as
                > historical source.
                >

                I did not necessarily refer to you.

                Kindly regards
                Troels
              • jpisc98357@aol.com
                In a message dated 8/7/01 4:55:37 AM Central Daylight Time, dirk@smra.co.uk ... Best regards, John Piscopo http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com PO Box 137 Western
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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                  In a message dated 8/7/01 4:55:37 AM Central Daylight Time, dirk@...
                  > Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a new king from Thule when there
                  > were likely several members of the Herulic dynasty around in close
                  > proximity, I don't know. But it is one of these reports that I personally
                  > find improbable anyway, but I know you don't agree, which is fine.
                  >
                  > Dear Dirk,
                  >
                  > While members of the Royal Family of the Heruls may have been around
                  > there might not have been one of age and experience to serve as War Lord in
                  > a time when one was desperately needed. Military necessity may have
                  > trumped the convenience of a local child or incompetent. Assume a council
                  > of chiefs with the decision making power to choose the new War Lord, with
                  > enemies on all frontiers they might have asked a remote royal relative to
                  >

                  Best regards, John Piscopo
                  http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com
                  PO Box 137
                  Western Springs, IL 60558-0137
                  (708)246-7111


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • dirk@smra.co.uk
                  ... Hi Troels, saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read Procopius and to
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 8, 2001
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                    >
                    > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                    > between Andreas, you and me
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                    > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

                    Hi Troels,

                    saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
                    common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read Procopius
                    and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
                    all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
                    also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have used.
                    You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
                    vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For example
                    some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
                    Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius could
                    have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a distorted
                    picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
                    some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
                    from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his informers
                    is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
                    not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
                    actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
                    interpretations must be considered.









                    > ........
                    > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                    > common
                    > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                    > > > information we have about the Heruls.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                    > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                    > history
                    > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
                    > of
                    > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
                    > like
                    > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                    > > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                    > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                    > > leads if sources are scarce.
                    > >
                    > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                    > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                    > around
                    > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
                    > and
                    > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                    > >
                    >
                    > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                    > history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
                    > of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected -
                    I
                    > think we mix sources and testing tools.


                    Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
                    history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
                    impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
                    events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why he
                    may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
                    expected instead of blindly believing his every word.

                    cheers,

                    Dirk
                  • Troels Brandt
                    Hi Dirk I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago. When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron, Ellegaard
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 8, 2001
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                      Hi Dirk

                      I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago.

                      When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron,
                      Ellegaard e.t.c. - just like you - and some Danish literature too. I
                      was really surprised when I afterwards read a translation of
                      Procopius' own text. I am sure I had not made so many mistakes in the
                      beginning, if I had first read Procopius, then the other authors,
                      then the comparable sources and then Procopius again.

                      My advise is: Don't do the same mistake as I did. I am glad that only
                      a few people heard about my preliminary results based on the indirect
                      sources alone.

                      Troels


                      --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                      > > between Andreas, you and me
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                      > > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.
                      >
                      > Hi Troels,
                      >
                      > saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
                      > common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read
                      Procopius
                      > and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
                      > all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
                      > also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have
                      used.
                      > You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
                      > vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For
                      example
                      > some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
                      > Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius
                      could
                      > have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a
                      distorted
                      > picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
                      > some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
                      > from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his
                      informers
                      > is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
                      > not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
                      > actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
                      > interpretations must be considered.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > > ........
                      > > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                      > > common
                      > > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                      > > > > information we have about the Heruls.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                      > > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                      > > history
                      > > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources.
                      Actual 'use'
                      > > of
                      > > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to
                      people
                      > > like
                      > > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                      > > > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call
                      it
                      > > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the
                      best
                      > > > leads if sources are scarce.
                      > > >
                      > > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                      > > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                      > > around
                      > > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the
                      reliability
                      > > and
                      > > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                      > > history based on our expectations according to common sense
                      instead
                      > > of using the sources we have - even when the result is
                      unexpected -
                      > I
                      > > think we mix sources and testing tools.
                      >
                      >
                      > Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
                      > history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
                      > impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
                      > events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why
                      he
                      > may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
                      > expected instead of blindly believing his every word.
                      >
                      > cheers,
                      >
                      > Dirk
                    • dirk@smra.co.uk
                      Hi Troells, one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the name of the Herulic king Datius , who according to Procopius travelled from
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                        Hi Troells,

                        one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the
                        name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                        travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                        likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given to
                        an otherwise unknown king?

                        It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share a
                        name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop St
                        Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of the
                        time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                        was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                        Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his name
                        might have been an important political message at the time. This is of
                        course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                        i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.


                        thanks
                        Dirk
                      • keth@online.no
                        Hi Dirk, I saw it mentioned in one of the books two days ago, that Datius may have been the same legendary name as occurs in Saxo Grammaticus. But there it
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                          Hi Dirk,
                          I saw it mentioned in one of the books two days ago, that
                          "Datius" may have been the same legendary name as occurs
                          in Saxo Grammaticus. But there it was king "Dan". (was
                          it in Menghin? Am not sure any more)

                          Keth


                          >Hi Troells,
                          >
                          >one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the
                          >name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                          >travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                          >likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given to
                          >an otherwise unknown king?
                          >
                          >It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share a
                          >name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop St
                          >Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of the
                          > time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                          >was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                          >Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his name
                          >might have been an important political message at the time. This is of
                          >course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                          >i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.
                          >
                          >
                          >thanks
                          >Dirk
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                          >
                          >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        • Troels Brandt
                          Hi Dirk I don t have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to return in the
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                            Hi Dirk

                            I don't have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about
                            the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to return
                            in the weekend.

                            However I remember a discussion about a connection to Danus (Dane or
                            Dan, which was a common royal name in the Danish cronicles) - and
                            this could again lead to the discussion Dania/Dacia, which you
                            mention.

                            The first candidate - whom he succeeded - died by a disease among the
                            Danes, so there might even be a connection there. Datius probably
                            died in Dacia, but that was after Procopius wrote the name.

                            I have also seen a connection mentioned to one of the first Svea-
                            kings in Ynglingatal, Dag (=Day).

                            If we remove the -us or -ius, the name is very short. I believe
                            misunderstandings in such cases are likely, and also the combination
                            is probable in many languages.

                            However Datius expelled the Herulian general Suartuas. I am sure he
                            remembered his name and Procopius probably listened to Suartuas. I
                            don't think he was mixed up with or got his name from a Milanese
                            bishop.

                            Troels





                            --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                            > Hi Troells,
                            >
                            > one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of
                            the
                            > name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                            > travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                            > likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given
                            to
                            > an otherwise unknown king?
                            >
                            > It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share
                            a
                            > name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop
                            St
                            > Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of
                            the
                            > time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                            > was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                            > Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his
                            name
                            > might have been an important political message at the time. This is
                            of
                            > course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                            > i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.
                            >
                            >
                            > thanks
                            > Dirk
                          • dirk@smra.co.uk
                            ... return ... the ... Hi Troels, that was not really what I meant, but anyway, here is the promised URL to an article by Menghin, in which he re-interprets
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 10, 2001
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                              --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                              > Hi Dirk
                              >
                              > I don't have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about
                              > the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to
                              return
                              > in the weekend.
                              >
                              > However I remember a discussion about a connection to Danus (Dane or
                              > Dan, which was a common royal name in the Danish cronicles) - and
                              > this could again lead to the discussion Dania/Dacia, which you
                              > mention.
                              >
                              > The first candidate - whom he succeeded - died by a disease among
                              the
                              > Danes, so there might even be a connection there. Datius probably
                              > died in Dacia, but that was after Procopius wrote the name.
                              >
                              > I have also seen a connection mentioned to one of the first Svea-
                              > kings in Ynglingatal, Dag (=Day).
                              >
                              > If we remove the -us or -ius, the name is very short. I believe
                              > misunderstandings in such cases are likely, and also the combination
                              > is probable in many languages.
                              >
                              > However Datius expelled the Herulian general Suartuas. I am sure he
                              > remembered his name and Procopius probably listened to Suartuas. I
                              > don't think he was mixed up with or got his name from a Milanese
                              > bishop.
                              >
                              > Troels



                              Hi Troels,

                              that was not really what I meant, but anyway, here is the promised URL
                              to an article by Menghin, in which he re-interprets the Phalheim
                              horsemen as Alamannic noblemen.

                              http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/pfahl.htm

                              The site is difficult to read, but other articles are also of
                              interest. BTW, I have heard that the catalog of the recent exhibition
                              of the Phalheim horse warriors in the Germanische National
                              Museum in Nuremberg, stresses the East Germanic/Byzantine nature of
                              their equipment more than Menghin did.

                              cheers,
                              Dirk


                              PS You mentioned the Varnies, or better Varni in an earlier message.
                              As far as I know not much is known about them. They were closely
                              associated with the Thuringians and may actually have been part of the
                              Thuringians or became part of the Thuringian kingdom as it expanded
                              north-westwards. Together with the Western Heruls, the Varni (and
                              Thuringians) were allied with the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. Apparently
                              , Visigothic kings like Euric, but also Theoderic the Great, sought
                              their alliance as counter-balance against the Franks. A Varnian with
                              the name Agiwulf reached a high-ranking position at the Visigothic
                              court and was one-time duke of the formerly Suevic areas of north-west
                              Spain. Like the Western Heruls, the Varni seemed to have had some
                              sort of minor kingdom at the Lower Rhine area. I don't know whether or
                              not the river and town name Warnow and the town name Warnemuende (at
                              the Baltic Sea) have anything to do with the Varni, but I think it is
                              rather unlikely.
                            • Troels Brandt
                              Hi Dirk Thanks for the information about Phalheim. I have not found my original note about the Brents, which had something to do with Paulus Diaconus, but
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 12, 2001
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                                Hi Dirk

                                Thanks for the information about Phalheim.

                                I have not found my original note about the Brents, which had
                                something to do with Paulus Diaconus, but anyway I can refer you to
                                Ludwig Schmidt. In his "Die Ostgermanen" you can – at least in my
                                version - at page 558 (Die Gepiden, Taifalen, Heruler) read about
                                this Sinduald.

                                Regarding Fara I had some progress – also reading Schmidt again – as
                                300 Heruls joined the Persian War in 530 with an officer named Fara
                                (Source: Procopius' Persian Wars) and around 534 this Fara commanded
                                400 Heruls against the Vandals. He might be the Herulian prince (or a
                                relative) dying in 535 in Bavaria – making (if correct) this dynasty
                                a part of the Herulian mercenaries. In this way he belonged to the
                                group crossing the Danube and settling in Illyria in 512 (around
                                Singidudum) – opposite the royal group leaving earlier for
                                Scandinavia. The Illyrian group was split several times after 512,
                                and some of their nobles may have joined other people like Sinduald
                                and maybe Fara. However we can't be sure we are talking about the
                                same Fara.

                                Ludwig Schmidt had also noticed Harlinger Land, Herilungoburg and
                                some other place names containing Harl-. He doubted there was a
                                connection to the Heruls, but as he did not mention "your" old
                                versions of Harlingen he possibly missed a point. He combined the
                                names with the Harlungen dynasty. I am still searching for the
                                Harlingen-source.

                                After what I have read the Varnies lived in the Mecklenburg area.
                                Later they went southwest ending as a part of the Saxons. However I
                                have never been interested in the Varnies as you have been interested
                                in the Saxons so you probably know better.

                                Troels
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