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Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

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  • Troels Brandt
    Hi Dirk I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy regarding Jordanes, Paulus
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 3, 2001
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      Hi Dirk

      I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
      webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy regarding
      Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about proof
      and sources regarding the geneology below?

      Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
      Alamanni?

      Troels

      --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
      >
      > Hi Cory and Keth,
      >
      > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
      influences
      > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian ducal
      > house, the Agilofings.
      >
      > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree looks
      > something like this:
      >
      >
      > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
      >
      > son:
      > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
      >
      > first son of Fara:
      > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
      > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
      >
      > second son of Fara:
      > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
      > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
      >
      > children of Garibald:
      > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic Kings)
      > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
      >
      >
      >
      > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died in
      > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son was
      > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
      >
      >
      > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
      > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
      > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the complicated
      > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at least
      a
      > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
      >
      >
      > cheers,
      >
      > Dirk
    • dirk@smra.co.uk
      ... regarding ... proof ... Hi Troels, the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not always identical or complete, but you will find bits
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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        --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
        > Hi Dirk
        >
        > I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
        > webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy
        regarding
        > Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about
        proof
        > and sources regarding the geneology below?





        Hi Troels,

        the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not
        always identical or complete, but you will find bits of it in the
        standard literature on the subject such as:

        Hartung, Wolfgang "Sueddeutschland in der fruhen Merowingerzeit.
        Studien zu Gesellschaft, Herrschaft, Stammesbildung bei Alamannen und
        Bajuwaren," Wiesbaden 1983

        some notes on the duke Fara are also in

        Eugen Ewig, "Die Merovinger und das Frankenreich",

        For a genealogy that is accessible on the internet, and which also has
        virtually all of the family-tree presented below, see the 'British
        Royal Geneologies' at:

        http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~bct/public/genealogy/royal/#Barbarian


        I know that you don't like the idea that members of the Herulic royal
        house could have remained in the area, as you are normally keen to
        argue that they migrated to Scandinavia. I suppose the possibly that
        some of them stayed behind does not excluded the possibility that
        others moved to Scandinavia.

        Looking at the 'usual' pattern when a people is defeated, it appears
        to be that more often than not the defeated elite gets absorbed into
        the new elites. This seems to hold true even for one-time mortal
        enemies. For the victors it is probably good policy to pacify an area
        with the help of the old elites, while at the same time removing the
        thread of the old leaders becoming a 'rallying point' for resistance.
        What is even more important, there were often pre-existing family
        links between the ruling elites of the different tribes, that would
        have facilitated the integration of the defeated elite. In fact, often
        the victorious king sought to underscore the legitimacy of his rule by
        marrying a princess or queen of the defeated people. (The Langobard
        Wacho married a Gepidic women and later a Herulic princess with the
        name Silinga. There daughters were married off to Frankish kings at
        Cologne (Wisigarda's grave under the Cathedral of Cologne))

        For the defeated elite it must be the most daunting and desperate
        thought to give up all pre-existing dynastic links and claims that
        could support a continued power base in the area. What should also not
        be underestimated is that many of the 'barbarian leaders' were
        accustomed to a life-style in Roman villas in a fairly moderate
        climate. To abandon all this consciously cannot have been the first
        and preferred choice. Thus, if any of the Herulic princes could
        establish himself in the local areas, with the help of powerful
        relatives, preferably at a former Roman centre like Augsburg, Passau
        or Wuerzburg he would probably have preferred this to the uncertainty
        of a life in a remote northern country, which literally must have
        seem like the end of the world to them. But again, some of them may
        not have been able to establish themselves locally, an the trek to
        Scandinavia was the only option for them.

        What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members of
        the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people of
        several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
        Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite, without
        any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
        been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known to
        have formed a large part of the population in these areas.

        cheers,

        Dirk














        >
        > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
        > Alamanni?
        >
        > Troels
        >
        > --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Cory and Keth,
        > >
        > > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
        > influences
        > > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian ducal
        > > house, the Agilofings.
        > >
        > > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree looks
        > > something like this:
        > >
        > >
        > > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
        > >
        > > son:
        > > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
        > >
        > > first son of Fara:
        > > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
        > > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
        > >
        > > second son of Fara:
        > > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
        > > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
        > >
        > > children of Garibald:
        > > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic
        Kings)
        > > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died in
        > > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son
        was
        > > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
        > >
        > >
        > > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
        > > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
        > > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the complicated
        > > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at
        least
        > a
        > > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
        > >
        > >
        > > cheers,
        > >
        > > Dirk
      • keth@online.no
        Hi Dirk, ... I believe it was somewhat different. (but of course they also did use locals) The young people in Norway often left home and travelled South.
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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          Hi Dirk,
          You wrote:

          >What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members of
          >the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people of
          >several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
          >Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite, without
          >any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
          >been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known to
          >have formed a large part of the population in these areas.

          I believe it was somewhat different. (but of course they also did use locals)
          The young people in Norway often left home and travelled South.
          Maybe to do mercenary service. They also learned about peoples and
          trade routes that way. And they gained honour when they participated in
          battles. Thus they could come home later with so to speak a "university
          diploma" comparing with today, when young people are still sent abroad,
          because that is considered valuable asset for the young.
          Norway has a continual tradition of young men going on long journeys.
          Just think that the Norwegian merchant fleet used to be the worlds
          third. Only after USA and Britain. But pro capita it was the worlds
          largest. It was alays the ocean, the ocean. Since time immemorial.

          The Heruls were known for their "velocitas" and their "light armament"
          That is typical of a people coming from a mountainous country.
          They never lived right by the sea's shore. Old houses are always found
          somewhat uphill from the place where they had their boats.
          And the boats was the "automobile" of those days.
          It was still that way in W. Norway around 1950 or 60:
          Far more people had a boat than a car. And they used the boat
          for everything: fishing, shopping, going to church etc..
          So they had very strong arms (all the rowing)
          Also running home for the supper was maybe 10 minutes uphill.
          So they had very stong legs. Those were the good soldiers.

          Just go to Switzerland or Austria, and you still find young
          people in fantastic physical shape. It is the mountains
          that make them so fit. (just like the Columbian cyclists
          or the Ethiopian runners)


          >> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
          Yes, this is the man who was king of several peoples in W.Norway.
          See the Getica (in the beginning)

          >> > son:
          >> > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
          In Old Norse there is the corresponding name "Farþegn".
          It means something like "SeaServant", hence has a meaning that
          indicates a marine environment.



          I have also been reading Eugippius, and there also found
          many names on F. "Ferderuch" for example.
          Also: "Feletheus", "Onoulf", "Flaccitheus", "Feva", "Giso".
          Any ideas what they might nmean? Analogies etc?

          >> > first son of Fara:
          >> > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
          >> > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria

          With best regards
          Keth
        • dirk@smra.co.uk
          ... of ... of ... without ... to ... use locals) ... in ... university ... abroad, ... journeys. ... armament ... found ... Hi Keth, I am not exactly sure
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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            --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
            > Hi Dirk,
            > You wrote:
            >
            > >What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members
            of
            > >the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people
            of
            > >several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
            > >Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite,
            without
            > >any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
            > >been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known
            to
            > >have formed a large part of the population in these areas.
            >
            > I believe it was somewhat different. (but of course they also did
            use locals)
            > The young people in Norway often left home and travelled South.
            > Maybe to do mercenary service. They also learned about peoples and
            > trade routes that way. And they gained honour when they participated
            in
            > battles. Thus they could come home later with so to speak a
            "university
            > diploma" comparing with today, when young people are still sent
            abroad,
            > because that is considered valuable asset for the young.
            > Norway has a continual tradition of young men going on long
            journeys.
            > Just think that the Norwegian merchant fleet used to be the worlds
            > third. Only after USA and Britain. But pro capita it was the worlds
            > largest. It was alays the ocean, the ocean. Since time immemorial.
            >
            > The Heruls were known for their "velocitas" and their "light
            armament"
            > That is typical of a people coming from a mountainous country.
            > They never lived right by the sea's shore. Old houses are always
            found
            > somewhat uphill from the place where they had their boats.
            > And the boats was the "automobile" of those days.
            > It was still that way in W. Norway around 1950 or 60:
            > Far more people had a boat than a car. And they used the boat
            > for everything: fishing, shopping, going to church etc..
            > So they had very strong arms (all the rowing)
            > Also running home for the supper was maybe 10 minutes uphill.
            > So they had very stong legs. Those were the good soldiers.
            >
            > Just go to Switzerland or Austria, and you still find young
            > people in fantastic physical shape. It is the mountains
            > that make them so fit. (just like the Columbian cyclists
            > or the Ethiopian runners)



            Hi Keth,

            I am not exactly sure what you are arguing. The Danube/Panonnia Heruls
            were no mountain people and they did not live by the sea.
            Nevertheless, they may have been in good physical shape, although bone
            analysis ususally showed that people at these time died at around 40
            years and women a little earlier. They usually suffered mal-nutrition
            and/or severe/growth-impairing deceases at some stages in their lives.
            But how does that relate to a possible migration to Scandinavia?





            > >> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
            > Yes, this is the man who was king of several peoples in W.Norway.
            > See the Getica (in the beginning)


            No this is Roduulf, last king of the Heruls at the Danube. There was
            also a Thuringian king with that name. It seems to have been a popular
            name at the time.



            > >> > son:
            > >> > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
            > In Old Norse there is the corresponding name "Farþegn".
            > It means something like "SeaServant", hence has a meaning that
            > indicates a marine environment.
            >


            Fara, is a Germanic term attested for the Langobards and denoting a
            warrior group, somthing like a Hansa as far as I know. It is probably
            related to German 'Fahren', I suppose.




            > I have also been reading Eugippius, and there also found
            > many names on F. "Ferderuch" for example.
            > Also: "Feletheus", "Onoulf", "Flaccitheus", "Feva", "Giso".
            > Any ideas what they might nmean? Analogies etc?


            Some of the names like Feletheus, Feva etc. are those of Rugian kings
            near Passau. I don't know what their names mean. One Rugian
            king/prince -I think- was also called Fridrich, a name that is still
            very much in use today.


            best regards
            Dirk
          • dirk@smra.co.uk
            ... Hi again Keth and Troels, while Keth mentionend this Scandinavian king Roduulf who came to Theoderic, because he despised his homeland so much this seems
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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              > >> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
              > Yes, this is the man who was king of several peoples in W.Norway.
              > See the Getica (in the beginning)
              >

              Hi again Keth and Troels,

              while Keth mentionend this Scandinavian king Roduulf who came to
              Theoderic, because he despised his homeland so much this seems to
              underscore how desperate any Herulic prince must have been to migrate
              to Scandinavia. Don't get me wrong, I find Scandinavia most beautiful,
              but if 6th century people were getting reports about a country that
              was so awfull that even a king would leave it if he could that must
              have been a discouraging prospect for any Herulic tribesman who was
              accustomed to the milder climate of Pannonia and even the sub-tropical
              climate of the Black Sea. Remember, Jordanes/Cassiordorus had already
              described Scandinavia as a place were humans can hardly live and that
              was cruel even to beasts.

              cheers,

              Dirk
            • dirk@smra.co.uk
              ... Hi Troels, this last question of yours had escaped my attention. I am no expert, but there is nothing inherently Bavarian or Alamannic in the grave goods.
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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                --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:

                > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
                > Alamanni?
                >
                > Troels

                Hi Troels,

                this last question of yours had escaped my attention. I am no expert,
                but there is nothing inherently Bavarian or Alamannic in the grave
                goods. There are however, local variantions in fibula styles,
                pottery-shapes etc. which are associated with the one or the other
                group or sub-groups. Especially for the Bavarians who grew together
                from many different tribes and ethnic groups it is naturally difficult
                to inditfy anything typical Bavarian.

                I have mentioned the Phalheim horse warriors in Bavaria many times
                before. These people were dressed and equipped in exclusively East
                Germanic/Byzantine/Italian fashion and for a long time they had
                even been identified as Herul mercenaries. However, the archaeologist
                Wilfried Menghin re-interpreted them as Alamanns. As you know, a few
                fibulae cannot be used to identify ethnic shifts as trade and commerce
                will have dispersed local styles swiftly.

                cheers,

                Dirk
              • Troels Brandt
                Hi Dirk In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854, 4855, 4856 and 4857. First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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                  Hi Dirk

                  In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854,
                  4855, 4856 and 4857.

                  First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
                  discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
                  Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
                  primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
                  not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was a
                  boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
                  settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
                  describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
                  Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
                  Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.

                  The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
                  for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
                  about this Fara several times without getting his background
                  confirmed. If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
                  why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
                  Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
                  that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
                  geneologies in the Norse "literature".

                  Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
                  sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                  information we have about the Heruls. I agree that the Heruls split
                  up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married into
                  another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
                  to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
                  still guesswork.

                  I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do I
                  find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
                  rule in Phalheim?

                  The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes even
                  called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training -
                  this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars earlier
                  discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
                  several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
                  warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
                  and old people - and how could they keep their own religion? Read my
                  note 63 as you read note 32.

                  We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich was
                  a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
                  was not identical to the king in Pannonia.

                  We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
                  Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
                  anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
                  Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
                  do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
                  do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
                  the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
                  their neighbours - including the Lombards! His information is
                  confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
                  Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
                  to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
                  Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
                  Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in Thule,
                  and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
                  by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
                  contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
                  should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
                  the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
                  makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
                  covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
                  Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

                  I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
                  of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
                  investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
                  the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.

                  Concerning our earlier mails about Harlingen a member from Germanic
                  List has told, that the name in Netherland probably derive from a
                  Frisian word and not from Heruls. This does not change the
                  explanation of the Ostfrisian Harlinger Land, which I am still trying
                  to check.

                  Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
                  Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
                  neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
                  dispised Edda-"literature"?

                  Troels


                  --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                  > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                  > > Hi Dirk
                  > >
                  > > I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
                  > > webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy
                  > regarding
                  > > Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about
                  > proof
                  > > and sources regarding the geneology below?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Troels,
                  >
                  > the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not
                  > always identical or complete, but you will find bits of it in the
                  > standard literature on the subject such as:
                  >
                  > Hartung, Wolfgang "Sueddeutschland in der fruhen Merowingerzeit.
                  > Studien zu Gesellschaft, Herrschaft, Stammesbildung bei Alamannen
                  und
                  > Bajuwaren," Wiesbaden 1983
                  >
                  > some notes on the duke Fara are also in
                  >
                  > Eugen Ewig, "Die Merovinger und das Frankenreich",
                  >
                  > For a genealogy that is accessible on the internet, and which also
                  has
                  > virtually all of the family-tree presented below, see the 'British
                  > Royal Geneologies' at:
                  >
                  > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~bct/public/genealogy/royal/#Barbarian
                  >
                  >
                  > I know that you don't like the idea that members of the Herulic
                  royal
                  > house could have remained in the area, as you are normally keen to
                  > argue that they migrated to Scandinavia. I suppose the possibly
                  that
                  > some of them stayed behind does not excluded the possibility that
                  > others moved to Scandinavia.
                  >
                  > Looking at the 'usual' pattern when a people is defeated, it
                  appears
                  > to be that more often than not the defeated elite gets absorbed
                  into
                  > the new elites. This seems to hold true even for one-time mortal
                  > enemies. For the victors it is probably good policy to pacify an
                  area
                  > with the help of the old elites, while at the same time removing
                  the
                  > thread of the old leaders becoming a 'rallying point' for
                  resistance.
                  > What is even more important, there were often pre-existing family
                  > links between the ruling elites of the different tribes, that would
                  > have facilitated the integration of the defeated elite. In fact,
                  often
                  > the victorious king sought to underscore the legitimacy of his rule
                  by
                  > marrying a princess or queen of the defeated people. (The Langobard
                  > Wacho married a Gepidic women and later a Herulic princess with the
                  > name Silinga. There daughters were married off to Frankish kings at
                  > Cologne (Wisigarda's grave under the Cathedral of Cologne))
                  >
                  > For the defeated elite it must be the most daunting and desperate
                  > thought to give up all pre-existing dynastic links and claims that
                  > could support a continued power base in the area. What should also
                  not
                  > be underestimated is that many of the 'barbarian leaders' were
                  > accustomed to a life-style in Roman villas in a fairly moderate
                  > climate. To abandon all this consciously cannot have been the first
                  > and preferred choice. Thus, if any of the Herulic princes could
                  > establish himself in the local areas, with the help of powerful
                  > relatives, preferably at a former Roman centre like Augsburg,
                  Passau
                  > or Wuerzburg he would probably have preferred this to the
                  uncertainty
                  > of a life in a remote northern country, which literally must have
                  > seem like the end of the world to them. But again, some of them may
                  > not have been able to establish themselves locally, an the trek to
                  > Scandinavia was the only option for them.
                  >
                  > What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members
                  of
                  > the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people
                  of
                  > several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
                  > Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite,
                  without
                  > any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
                  > been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known
                  to
                  > have formed a large part of the population in these areas.
                  >
                  > cheers,
                  >
                  > Dirk
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
                  > > Alamanni?
                  > >
                  > > Troels
                  > >
                  > > --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Cory and Keth,
                  > > >
                  > > > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
                  > > influences
                  > > > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian
                  ducal
                  > > > house, the Agilofings.
                  > > >
                  > > > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree
                  looks
                  > > > something like this:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
                  > > >
                  > > > son:
                  > > > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
                  > > >
                  > > > first son of Fara:
                  > > > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
                  > > > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
                  > > >
                  > > > second son of Fara:
                  > > > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
                  > > > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
                  > > >
                  > > > children of Garibald:
                  > > > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic
                  > Kings)
                  > > > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died
                  in
                  > > > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son
                  > was
                  > > > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
                  > > > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
                  > > > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the
                  complicated
                  > > > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at
                  > least
                  > > a
                  > > > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > cheers,
                  > > >
                  > > > Dirk
                • dirk@smra.co.uk
                  ... 4854, ... a ... Hi Troels, sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                    > Hi Dirk
                    >
                    > In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851,
                    4854,
                    > 4855, 4856 and 4857.
                    >
                    > First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
                    > discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
                    > Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
                    > primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
                    > not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was
                    a
                    > boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
                    > settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
                    > describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
                    > Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
                    > Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.
                    >


                    Hi Troels,

                    sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that
                    some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that everything
                    Germanic is Scandinavian, migrated from Scandinavia or back to
                    Scandinavia. This does not even need to originate from 'bad'
                    intentions, but since there is usually little opposition to these
                    views from others, I seemed to end up pointing to the significance of
                    other areas and peoples as well.

                    In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
                    borders for the study of Germanic history. However, I must admit the
                    fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
                    slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
                    but that is resolved now :)



                    > The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
                    > for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
                    > about this Fara several times without getting his background
                    > confirmed.


                    There are at least two Bavarian dukes with the name Fara. Both were
                    'only' dukes of parts of Bavaria or dukes 'in' Bavaria as opposed to
                    'of' Bavaria. At least that is my understanding.



                    If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
                    > why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
                    > Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
                    > that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
                    > geneologies in the Norse "literature".


                    The Agilofing genealogy is not derived from legends or sagas, but at
                    any rate, the exact relationships among the dukes is not undisputed.
                    I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a
                    new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
                    Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is one
                    of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I know
                    you don't agree, which is fine.




                    > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
                    > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                    > information we have about the Heruls.


                    But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                    receives too little attention when people try to re-construct history
                    on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use' of
                    this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people like
                    Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                    behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                    theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                    leads if sources are scarce.

                    I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                    events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else around
                    it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability and
                    intentions of the authors of the sources.




                    > I agree that the Heruls split
                    > up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married
                    into
                    > another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
                    > to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
                    > still guesswork.

                    >
                    > I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do
                    I
                    > find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
                    > rule in Phalheim?


                    I am not aware that any particular area is assigned to Fara, but that
                    could be my ignorance. Fara II ruled in North Bavaria around Wuerzburg
                    as far as I know. According to the genealogy Fara I decendents became
                    dukes of all Bavaria in the form of Garibald I and Sindualt's son
                    Tassilo. I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
                    Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but shall
                    try to dig it up again.





                    >
                    > The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes
                    even
                    > called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training
                    -
                    > this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars
                    earlier
                    > discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
                    > several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
                    > warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
                    > and old people - and how could they keep their own religion?


                    I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
                    Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of ruling
                    families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube Suevi,
                    Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.

                    There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall in
                    Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire. After a
                    while they integrated in the local population and service along the
                    Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
                    formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with the
                    decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
                    chieftain-families originating from former army service placing there
                    head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.

                    The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
                    Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
                    lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It is
                    possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
                    that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


                    Read my
                    > note 63 as you read note 32.
                    >
                    > We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich
                    was
                    > a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
                    > was not identical to the king in Pannonia.
                    >
                    > We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
                    > Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
                    > anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
                    > Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
                    > do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
                    > do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
                    > the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
                    > their neighbours - including the Lombards!



                    There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled over
                    a large majority. I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
                    your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be seen
                    as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
                    people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?



                    His information is
                    > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
                    > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
                    > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
                    > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
                    > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
                    Thule,
                    > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
                    > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
                    > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
                    > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
                    > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
                    > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
                    > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
                    > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).


                    In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
                    reliability of Procopius.




                    > I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
                    > of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
                    > investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
                    > the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.



                    That would really be of interest to me. These Brennones or Brents were
                    a barely romanised Celtic people in Tyrol that was renowned for its
                    'wildness' even in the sevenths and eights century.



                    >
                    > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
                    > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
                    > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
                    > dispised Edda-"literature"?


                    What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not be
                    further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use as
                    historical source.


                    cheers,

                    Dirk
                  • Troels Brandt
                    Hi Dirk ... I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of which country you got your education in - even among professionals (10 years
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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                      Hi Dirk

                      --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                      > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                      >
                      .........
                      > In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
                      > borders for the study of Germanic history.

                      I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of
                      which country you got your education in - even among professionals
                      (10 years ago archaeology more than history). There will always be a
                      local element in the education and missing elements from other
                      countries causing different points of view. Neither you or I are
                      exceptions.

                      > However, I must admit the
                      > fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
                      > slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
                      > but that is resolved now :)


                      I did not trust this information, and I don't regard it as important,
                      that a person is mentioned in a geneology as a Herulian prince. We do
                      not know how to use this information which could just be due to
                      marriage or exile. My website does not pretend to contain all
                      information about the Heruls.


                      > I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send
                      for a
                      > new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
                      > Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is
                      one
                      > of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I
                      know
                      > you don't agree, which is fine.
                      >

                      Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                      between Andreas, you and me
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                      - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

                      ........
                      > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                      common
                      > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                      > > information we have about the Heruls.
                      >
                      >
                      > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                      > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                      history
                      > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
                      of
                      > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
                      like
                      > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                      > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                      > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                      > leads if sources are scarce.
                      >
                      > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                      > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                      around
                      > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
                      and
                      > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                      >

                      I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                      history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
                      of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected - I
                      think we mix sources and testing tools.

                      .......
                      > I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
                      > Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but
                      shall
                      > try to dig it up again.


                      I have tried to search for "Phalheim", but found only one message at
                      Germanic List.

                      ........
                      > I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
                      > Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of
                      ruling
                      > families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube
                      Suevi,
                      > Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.


                      Actually their kingdom was supposed to be north of Danube in Moravia,
                      Wiener Viertel and Marchfeld.


                      > There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall
                      in
                      > Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire.
                      After a
                      > while they integrated in the local population and service along the
                      > Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
                      > formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with
                      the
                      > decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
                      > chieftain-families originating from former army service placing
                      there
                      > head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.
                      >
                      > The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
                      > Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
                      > lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It
                      is
                      > possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
                      > that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


                      We already heard about the Heruls in the 3rd century at the Black Sea
                      and in Frisia. The first mercenaries were mentioned in the 4th
                      century (probably Western Heruls) while the Eastern Heruls probably
                      followed the Huns to Pannonia as the Ostrogoths. However it is
                      natural that the mercenaries were mentioned more often than the
                      people behind, which did not interest the Roman writers.

                      >
                      > There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled
                      over
                      > a large majority.


                      Probably, but Procopius wrote " .. superior in number ..".


                      > I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
                      > your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be
                      seen
                      > as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
                      > people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?


                      I answered this below. If you want to hear my guess, I think they
                      formed a small but strong army (1000-5000 warriors with family)
                      followed by people they met on their way, and I expect they only
                      formed a superior class in Scandinavia. This sounds nearly like your
                      own theory about Pannonia, mentioned above - but the explanation is
                      only a guess.

                      .......
                      >
                      > His information is
                      > > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
                      > > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no
                      reason
                      > > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless
                      the
                      > > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of
                      Justinian.
                      > > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
                      > Thule,
                      > > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to
                      Illyria
                      > > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The
                      last
                      > > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
                      > > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story
                      about
                      > > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
                      > > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
                      > > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier
                      discussed
                      > > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

                      >
                      > In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
                      > reliability of Procopius.


                      Maybe this is your view, but then I would not even mention Fara if I
                      were you.

                      ........
                      > >
                      > > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
                      > > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
                      > > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
                      > > dispised Edda-"literature"?
                      >
                      >
                      > What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not
                      be
                      > further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use
                      as
                      > historical source.
                      >

                      I did not necessarily refer to you.

                      Kindly regards
                      Troels
                    • jpisc98357@aol.com
                      In a message dated 8/7/01 4:55:37 AM Central Daylight Time, dirk@smra.co.uk ... Best regards, John Piscopo http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com PO Box 137 Western
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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                        In a message dated 8/7/01 4:55:37 AM Central Daylight Time, dirk@...
                        > Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a new king from Thule when there
                        > were likely several members of the Herulic dynasty around in close
                        > proximity, I don't know. But it is one of these reports that I personally
                        > find improbable anyway, but I know you don't agree, which is fine.
                        >
                        > Dear Dirk,
                        >
                        > While members of the Royal Family of the Heruls may have been around
                        > there might not have been one of age and experience to serve as War Lord in
                        > a time when one was desperately needed. Military necessity may have
                        > trumped the convenience of a local child or incompetent. Assume a council
                        > of chiefs with the decision making power to choose the new War Lord, with
                        > enemies on all frontiers they might have asked a remote royal relative to
                        >

                        Best regards, John Piscopo
                        http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com
                        PO Box 137
                        Western Springs, IL 60558-0137
                        (708)246-7111


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • dirk@smra.co.uk
                        ... Hi Troels, saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read Procopius and to
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 8, 2001
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                          >
                          > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                          > between Andreas, you and me
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                          > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

                          Hi Troels,

                          saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
                          common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read Procopius
                          and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
                          all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
                          also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have used.
                          You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
                          vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For example
                          some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
                          Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius could
                          have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a distorted
                          picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
                          some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
                          from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his informers
                          is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
                          not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
                          actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
                          interpretations must be considered.









                          > ........
                          > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                          > common
                          > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                          > > > information we have about the Heruls.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                          > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                          > history
                          > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
                          > of
                          > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
                          > like
                          > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                          > > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                          > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                          > > leads if sources are scarce.
                          > >
                          > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                          > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                          > around
                          > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
                          > and
                          > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                          > >
                          >
                          > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                          > history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
                          > of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected -
                          I
                          > think we mix sources and testing tools.


                          Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
                          history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
                          impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
                          events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why he
                          may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
                          expected instead of blindly believing his every word.

                          cheers,

                          Dirk
                        • Troels Brandt
                          Hi Dirk I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago. When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron, Ellegaard
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 8, 2001
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                            Hi Dirk

                            I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago.

                            When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron,
                            Ellegaard e.t.c. - just like you - and some Danish literature too. I
                            was really surprised when I afterwards read a translation of
                            Procopius' own text. I am sure I had not made so many mistakes in the
                            beginning, if I had first read Procopius, then the other authors,
                            then the comparable sources and then Procopius again.

                            My advise is: Don't do the same mistake as I did. I am glad that only
                            a few people heard about my preliminary results based on the indirect
                            sources alone.

                            Troels


                            --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                            >
                            > >
                            > > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                            > > between Andreas, you and me
                            > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                            > > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.
                            >
                            > Hi Troels,
                            >
                            > saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
                            > common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read
                            Procopius
                            > and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
                            > all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
                            > also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have
                            used.
                            > You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
                            > vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For
                            example
                            > some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
                            > Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius
                            could
                            > have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a
                            distorted
                            > picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
                            > some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
                            > from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his
                            informers
                            > is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
                            > not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
                            > actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
                            > interpretations must be considered.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > ........
                            > > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                            > > common
                            > > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                            > > > > information we have about the Heruls.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                            > > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                            > > history
                            > > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources.
                            Actual 'use'
                            > > of
                            > > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to
                            people
                            > > like
                            > > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                            > > > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call
                            it
                            > > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the
                            best
                            > > > leads if sources are scarce.
                            > > >
                            > > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                            > > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                            > > around
                            > > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the
                            reliability
                            > > and
                            > > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                            > > history based on our expectations according to common sense
                            instead
                            > > of using the sources we have - even when the result is
                            unexpected -
                            > I
                            > > think we mix sources and testing tools.
                            >
                            >
                            > Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
                            > history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
                            > impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
                            > events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why
                            he
                            > may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
                            > expected instead of blindly believing his every word.
                            >
                            > cheers,
                            >
                            > Dirk
                          • dirk@smra.co.uk
                            Hi Troells, one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the name of the Herulic king Datius , who according to Procopius travelled from
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                              Hi Troells,

                              one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the
                              name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                              travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                              likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given to
                              an otherwise unknown king?

                              It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share a
                              name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop St
                              Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of the
                              time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                              was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                              Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his name
                              might have been an important political message at the time. This is of
                              course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                              i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.


                              thanks
                              Dirk
                            • keth@online.no
                              Hi Dirk, I saw it mentioned in one of the books two days ago, that Datius may have been the same legendary name as occurs in Saxo Grammaticus. But there it
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                                Hi Dirk,
                                I saw it mentioned in one of the books two days ago, that
                                "Datius" may have been the same legendary name as occurs
                                in Saxo Grammaticus. But there it was king "Dan". (was
                                it in Menghin? Am not sure any more)

                                Keth


                                >Hi Troells,
                                >
                                >one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the
                                >name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                                >travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                                >likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given to
                                >an otherwise unknown king?
                                >
                                >It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share a
                                >name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop St
                                >Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of the
                                > time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                                >was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                                >Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his name
                                >might have been an important political message at the time. This is of
                                >course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                                >i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.
                                >
                                >
                                >thanks
                                >Dirk
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                >
                                >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              • Troels Brandt
                                Hi Dirk I don t have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to return in the
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                                  Hi Dirk

                                  I don't have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about
                                  the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to return
                                  in the weekend.

                                  However I remember a discussion about a connection to Danus (Dane or
                                  Dan, which was a common royal name in the Danish cronicles) - and
                                  this could again lead to the discussion Dania/Dacia, which you
                                  mention.

                                  The first candidate - whom he succeeded - died by a disease among the
                                  Danes, so there might even be a connection there. Datius probably
                                  died in Dacia, but that was after Procopius wrote the name.

                                  I have also seen a connection mentioned to one of the first Svea-
                                  kings in Ynglingatal, Dag (=Day).

                                  If we remove the -us or -ius, the name is very short. I believe
                                  misunderstandings in such cases are likely, and also the combination
                                  is probable in many languages.

                                  However Datius expelled the Herulian general Suartuas. I am sure he
                                  remembered his name and Procopius probably listened to Suartuas. I
                                  don't think he was mixed up with or got his name from a Milanese
                                  bishop.

                                  Troels





                                  --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                                  > Hi Troells,
                                  >
                                  > one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of
                                  the
                                  > name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                                  > travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                                  > likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given
                                  to
                                  > an otherwise unknown king?
                                  >
                                  > It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share
                                  a
                                  > name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop
                                  St
                                  > Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of
                                  the
                                  > time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                                  > was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                                  > Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his
                                  name
                                  > might have been an important political message at the time. This is
                                  of
                                  > course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                                  > i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > thanks
                                  > Dirk
                                • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                  ... return ... the ... Hi Troels, that was not really what I meant, but anyway, here is the promised URL to an article by Menghin, in which he re-interprets
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 10, 2001
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                                    --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                                    > Hi Dirk
                                    >
                                    > I don't have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about
                                    > the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to
                                    return
                                    > in the weekend.
                                    >
                                    > However I remember a discussion about a connection to Danus (Dane or
                                    > Dan, which was a common royal name in the Danish cronicles) - and
                                    > this could again lead to the discussion Dania/Dacia, which you
                                    > mention.
                                    >
                                    > The first candidate - whom he succeeded - died by a disease among
                                    the
                                    > Danes, so there might even be a connection there. Datius probably
                                    > died in Dacia, but that was after Procopius wrote the name.
                                    >
                                    > I have also seen a connection mentioned to one of the first Svea-
                                    > kings in Ynglingatal, Dag (=Day).
                                    >
                                    > If we remove the -us or -ius, the name is very short. I believe
                                    > misunderstandings in such cases are likely, and also the combination
                                    > is probable in many languages.
                                    >
                                    > However Datius expelled the Herulian general Suartuas. I am sure he
                                    > remembered his name and Procopius probably listened to Suartuas. I
                                    > don't think he was mixed up with or got his name from a Milanese
                                    > bishop.
                                    >
                                    > Troels



                                    Hi Troels,

                                    that was not really what I meant, but anyway, here is the promised URL
                                    to an article by Menghin, in which he re-interprets the Phalheim
                                    horsemen as Alamannic noblemen.

                                    http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/pfahl.htm

                                    The site is difficult to read, but other articles are also of
                                    interest. BTW, I have heard that the catalog of the recent exhibition
                                    of the Phalheim horse warriors in the Germanische National
                                    Museum in Nuremberg, stresses the East Germanic/Byzantine nature of
                                    their equipment more than Menghin did.

                                    cheers,
                                    Dirk


                                    PS You mentioned the Varnies, or better Varni in an earlier message.
                                    As far as I know not much is known about them. They were closely
                                    associated with the Thuringians and may actually have been part of the
                                    Thuringians or became part of the Thuringian kingdom as it expanded
                                    north-westwards. Together with the Western Heruls, the Varni (and
                                    Thuringians) were allied with the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. Apparently
                                    , Visigothic kings like Euric, but also Theoderic the Great, sought
                                    their alliance as counter-balance against the Franks. A Varnian with
                                    the name Agiwulf reached a high-ranking position at the Visigothic
                                    court and was one-time duke of the formerly Suevic areas of north-west
                                    Spain. Like the Western Heruls, the Varni seemed to have had some
                                    sort of minor kingdom at the Lower Rhine area. I don't know whether or
                                    not the river and town name Warnow and the town name Warnemuende (at
                                    the Baltic Sea) have anything to do with the Varni, but I think it is
                                    rather unlikely.
                                  • Troels Brandt
                                    Hi Dirk Thanks for the information about Phalheim. I have not found my original note about the Brents, which had something to do with Paulus Diaconus, but
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 12, 2001
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                                      Hi Dirk

                                      Thanks for the information about Phalheim.

                                      I have not found my original note about the Brents, which had
                                      something to do with Paulus Diaconus, but anyway I can refer you to
                                      Ludwig Schmidt. In his "Die Ostgermanen" you can – at least in my
                                      version - at page 558 (Die Gepiden, Taifalen, Heruler) read about
                                      this Sinduald.

                                      Regarding Fara I had some progress – also reading Schmidt again – as
                                      300 Heruls joined the Persian War in 530 with an officer named Fara
                                      (Source: Procopius' Persian Wars) and around 534 this Fara commanded
                                      400 Heruls against the Vandals. He might be the Herulian prince (or a
                                      relative) dying in 535 in Bavaria – making (if correct) this dynasty
                                      a part of the Herulian mercenaries. In this way he belonged to the
                                      group crossing the Danube and settling in Illyria in 512 (around
                                      Singidudum) – opposite the royal group leaving earlier for
                                      Scandinavia. The Illyrian group was split several times after 512,
                                      and some of their nobles may have joined other people like Sinduald
                                      and maybe Fara. However we can't be sure we are talking about the
                                      same Fara.

                                      Ludwig Schmidt had also noticed Harlinger Land, Herilungoburg and
                                      some other place names containing Harl-. He doubted there was a
                                      connection to the Heruls, but as he did not mention "your" old
                                      versions of Harlingen he possibly missed a point. He combined the
                                      names with the Harlungen dynasty. I am still searching for the
                                      Harlingen-source.

                                      After what I have read the Varnies lived in the Mecklenburg area.
                                      Later they went southwest ending as a part of the Saxons. However I
                                      have never been interested in the Varnies as you have been interested
                                      in the Saxons so you probably know better.

                                      Troels
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