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Re: [gothic-l] Amali insignia

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  • M. Carver
    on 8/3/01 12:27 AM, Beril Haggman at mvk575b@tninet.se wrote: Athalaric and Amalaswintha Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don t know what pilos
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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      on 8/3/01 12:27 AM, Beril Haggman at mvk575b@... wrote:

      Athalaric and Amalaswintha

      Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
      know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
      cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
      Amalaswintha a tiara.


      Liddell and Scott say for Pilos from classical Greek sources:

      I wool or hair made into felt, used as a lining for helmets; for shoes. II
      anything made of felt, a felt skullcap like the modern fez. 2 a felt cloth.
      3 a felt cuirass.

      Matþaius


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • sunburst
      Hails Bertil! ... Interesting. Is the pilos reference from Jordanes Pilleatai, or is there another reference for such? I have seen a number of Gothic coins,
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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        Hails Bertil!

        >Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
        >know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
        >cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
        >Amalaswintha a tiara.


        Interesting. Is the pilos reference from Jordanes Pilleatai, or is there
        another reference for such? I have seen a number of Gothic coins, but none
        of the figures
        on them were wearing any type of felt hat (thanks Matthaiu!). Maybe Dirk
        would know if such a depiction exists?

        Albareiks
      • keth@online.no
        ... Could it be something like a Phrygian cap? I also have a picture of Amalaswinthas head, which is a bust made of smooth stone. She wears an ornament in her
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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          Matþaius wrote:

          >on 8/3/01 12:27 AM, Beril Haggman at mvk575b@... wrote:
          >
          >Athalaric and Amalaswintha
          >
          >Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
          >know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
          >cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
          >Amalaswintha a tiara.
          >
          >
          >Liddell and Scott say for Pilos from classical Greek sources:
          >
          >I wool or hair made into felt, used as a lining for helmets; for shoes. II
          >anything made of felt, a felt skullcap like the modern fez. 2 a felt cloth.
          >3 a felt cuirass.

          Could it be something like a Phrygian cap?

          I also have a picture of Amalaswinthas head, which is a bust
          made of smooth stone. She wears an ornament in her hair that
          looks like a chain and in the front there is something that looks
          like a little medallion with 3 little hangers attached too it.
          I also have a photo of a colden medallion that show Theoderic
          en face. "rex theodericv spivsprincis" the Latin text says.
          He wears Roman attire and holds up in his left hand somthing that
          looks like an apple, and on top of the apple is a little angel(?)
          holding what lookes like a plume and a diadem. The plume could
          be a quill for writing, and the diadem looks a bit like a Greek
          omega. Maybe these are the royal insignia that you were looking
          for? Apart from that there isn't much concrete symbolism, except
          for a kind of abstract art that seems to make a point of displaying
          not symbols, but rather ornaments. What I do see, however, is
          Theoderic's monogram on top of some capitels. (stone pillars)
          By ornamental I mean flowers and wavy bands and things like that.

          What you do find are the various bird forms, but they wouldn't
          be vultures, I don't think, because there are no such birds
          in Northern Europe, though there might be some in Iran (?)
          Then there are the many belt clasps and fibulae. But here
          to the decorative patterns are remarkably abstract. Definitely
          not symbolic in the sense of the later heraldic symbolism.
          Perhaps these were 12th century artists who represented
          Theoderic in the style of the artist's own century, which caused
          him to look like a 12th century knight with shield and lance?
          In that case heraldic symbols may have been added to the shield
          by the artist. But such symbols probably only represented
          the artist idea of what kind of "coat of arms" the legendary
          king might have used. I do see a star on one medallian from Spain,
          but from the context (Maria with Child) it is clear that it is
          the Star of Bethlehem. I do not recall seeing many stars in
          Germanic ornament/symbolism. Usually what you see, if you look
          closely, are sometimes serpents, one-headed and two-headed ones.
          Or other animals. Also many small concentric circles often
          stamped on combs and ornaments such as belt buckles. Does any
          one know what they might have signified? Crescents I have seen
          as ornament/symbols in some cases, but not often. Crescent with
          star sounds like the Turkish flag to me.

          Best regards
          Keth
        • Beril Haggman
          Keth, So the question is if Amalaswintha was of of Amal royal blood? Probably yes as Ermanaric was Theoderic s forefather. But Albareiks is looking for Amali
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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            Keth,

            So the question is if Amalaswintha was of
            of Amal royal blood? Probably yes as
            Ermanaric was Theoderic's forefather.
            But Albareiks is looking for Amali insignia
            from an earlier time, before, I guess, Bysantian
            influence was becoming notecable.

            Older insignia (without details) are mentioned
            in _Getica_ in connection for instance once
            with King Tiudimir.

            Gothically

            Bertil

            Maybe these are the royal insignia that you were looking
            for?
          • dirk@smra.co.uk
            Hi Keth and the others, there is a depiction of a noble Roman women (believed to be Amalasuentha, but not certain) wearing this Phrygian Cap. I can positively
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 6, 2001
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              Hi Keth and the others,

              there is a depiction of a noble Roman women (believed to be
              Amalasuentha, but not certain) wearing this Phrygian Cap. I can
              positively say that there are no coins of any Ostrogothic ruler
              showing that type of head-gear. I remember that as a sign of royalty,
              an Ostrogothic king wore his hair unparted, but I am not sure about
              the exact source!

              The depiction of Theoderic on the gold medallion shows him holding a
              globe with the Roman goddess victory on top. Otherwise, his atire is
              that of a noble Roman. There is no depiction of Amalasuentha on any
              coin. Not even here name appears on a coin. There is also no portrait
              of Athalaricus. Theodahat was the first and only Ostrogothic rule to
              show his real, life-like portray on a coin. On these coins he is
              wearing what some people called a Spangenhelm, others despribed it as
              crown of Italy. He wears a large cross around his neck. Theodahatus is
              depicted as a slightly fat man, with neck-long hair and a moustache.
              The reverse is again the Roman Victory.

              On coins of Baduila, the king is presented in frontal view. The
              portrait is highly stylised, but a moustache is discernable on better
              specimines. Baduila also wears the 'Spangenhelm' (i.e. crown of
              Italy). None of the Ostrogothic coins show an Amal insignum of any
              type. However, as I said earlier, the Theodric monogramme seemed to
              have been used in that way on coins, artwork and documents.

              cheers,
              Dirk





              --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
              > Matþaius wrote:
              >
              > >on 8/3/01 12:27 AM, Beril Haggman at mvk575b@t... wrote:
              > >
              > >Athalaric and Amalaswintha
              > >
              > >Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
              > >know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
              > >cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
              > >Amalaswintha a tiara.
              > >
              > >
              > >Liddell and Scott say for Pilos from classical Greek sources:
              > >
              > >I wool or hair made into felt, used as a lining for helmets; for
              shoes. II
              > >anything made of felt, a felt skullcap like the modern fez. 2 a
              felt cloth.
              > >3 a felt cuirass.
              >
              > Could it be something like a Phrygian cap?
              >
              > I also have a picture of Amalaswinthas head, which is a bust
              > made of smooth stone. She wears an ornament in her hair that
              > looks like a chain and in the front there is something that looks
              > like a little medallion with 3 little hangers attached too it.
              > I also have a photo of a colden medallion that show Theoderic
              > en face. "rex theodericv spivsprincis" the Latin text says.
              > He wears Roman attire and holds up in his left hand somthing that
              > looks like an apple, and on top of the apple is a little angel(?)
              > holding what lookes like a plume and a diadem. The plume could
              > be a quill for writing, and the diadem looks a bit like a Greek
              > omega. Maybe these are the royal insignia that you were looking
              > for? Apart from that there isn't much concrete symbolism, except
              > for a kind of abstract art that seems to make a point of displaying
              > not symbols, but rather ornaments. What I do see, however, is
              > Theoderic's monogram on top of some capitels. (stone pillars)
              > By ornamental I mean flowers and wavy bands and things like that.
              >
              > What you do find are the various bird forms, but they wouldn't
              > be vultures, I don't think, because there are no such birds
              > in Northern Europe, though there might be some in Iran (?)
              > Then there are the many belt clasps and fibulae. But here
              > to the decorative patterns are remarkably abstract. Definitely
              > not symbolic in the sense of the later heraldic symbolism.
              > Perhaps these were 12th century artists who represented
              > Theoderic in the style of the artist's own century, which caused
              > him to look like a 12th century knight with shield and lance?
              > In that case heraldic symbols may have been added to the shield
              > by the artist. But such symbols probably only represented
              > the artist idea of what kind of "coat of arms" the legendary
              > king might have used. I do see a star on one medallian from Spain,
              > but from the context (Maria with Child) it is clear that it is
              > the Star of Bethlehem. I do not recall seeing many stars in
              > Germanic ornament/symbolism. Usually what you see, if you look
              > closely, are sometimes serpents, one-headed and two-headed ones.
              > Or other animals. Also many small concentric circles often
              > stamped on combs and ornaments such as belt buckles. Does any
              > one know what they might have signified? Crescents I have seen
              > as ornament/symbols in some cases, but not often. Crescent with
              > star sounds like the Turkish flag to me.
              >
              > Best regards
              > Keth
            • Francisc Czobor
              ... I have read somewhere that the bird-shaped fibulae of Goths and Gepids, representing birds of prey, are due to Iranic influence. On the other hand, the
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 7, 2001
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                --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                > ...
                > What you do find are the various bird forms, but they wouldn't
                > be vultures, I don't think, because there are no such birds
                > in Northern Europe, though there might be some in Iran (?)

                I have read somewhere that the bird-shaped fibulae of Goths and
                Gepids, representing birds of prey, are due to Iranic influence.
                On the other hand, the Goths knew the eagles, since there is a word
                for these birds in Gothic: ara, having cognates in other Germanic
                languages (OE earn, Eng. ern(e), MLG arn, Germ. dial. Aar, etc.)

                Francisc
              • dirk@smra.co.uk
                ... Hi Francisc, eagles lived all over Europe in these days and they are still living in the Alps and other parts and they played an important role in the
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 7, 2001
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                  --- In gothic-l@y..., "Francisc Czobor" <czobor@c...> wrote:
                  > --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                  > > ...
                  > > What you do find are the various bird forms, but they wouldn't
                  > > be vultures, I don't think, because there are no such birds
                  > > in Northern Europe, though there might be some in Iran (?)
                  >
                  > I have read somewhere that the bird-shaped fibulae of Goths and
                  > Gepids, representing birds of prey, are due to Iranic influence.
                  > On the other hand, the Goths knew the eagles, since there is a word
                  > for these birds in Gothic: ara, having cognates in other Germanic
                  > languages (OE earn, Eng. ern(e), MLG arn, Germ. dial. Aar, etc.)
                  >
                  > Francisc

                  Hi Francisc,

                  eagles lived all over Europe in these days and they are still living
                  in the Alps and other parts and they played an important role in the
                  mythology of many peoples. For the Romans it was usually associated
                  with the dead and the eagle carried the soul of the dead away to
                  heaven. Ostrogothic 40-nummi coins show a sitting Eagle, spreading its
                  wings and turning its head backwards. This eagle is, most likely
                  aluding to Roman traditions rather than Gothic beliefs, as this would
                  be in keeping with the design on other Ostrogothic coins (Romulus and
                  Remus, Roma-head, Victory, etc.)

                  cheers,

                  Dirk
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