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Re: Goths, Bavarians and Heruls

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  • dirk@smra.co.uk
    Hi Cory and Keth, I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic influences on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian ducal
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 3, 2001
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      Hi Cory and Keth,

      I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic influences
      on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian ducal
      house, the Agilofings.

      The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree looks
      something like this:


      Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic

      son:
      Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD

      first son of Fara:
      1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
      son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria

      second son of Fara:
      2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
      married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess

      children of Garibald:
      1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic Kings)
      2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)



      There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died in
      641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son was
      Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.


      According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
      Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
      Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the complicated
      dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at least a
      part) of the royal house of the Heruls.


      cheers,

      Dirk
    • Troels Brandt
      Hi Dirk I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy regarding Jordanes, Paulus
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 3, 2001
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        Hi Dirk

        I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
        webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy regarding
        Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about proof
        and sources regarding the geneology below?

        Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
        Alamanni?

        Troels

        --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
        >
        > Hi Cory and Keth,
        >
        > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
        influences
        > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian ducal
        > house, the Agilofings.
        >
        > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree looks
        > something like this:
        >
        >
        > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
        >
        > son:
        > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
        >
        > first son of Fara:
        > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
        > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
        >
        > second son of Fara:
        > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
        > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
        >
        > children of Garibald:
        > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic Kings)
        > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
        >
        >
        >
        > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died in
        > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son was
        > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
        >
        >
        > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
        > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
        > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the complicated
        > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at least
        a
        > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
        >
        >
        > cheers,
        >
        > Dirk
      • dirk@smra.co.uk
        ... regarding ... proof ... Hi Troels, the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not always identical or complete, but you will find bits
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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          --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
          > Hi Dirk
          >
          > I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
          > webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy
          regarding
          > Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about
          proof
          > and sources regarding the geneology below?





          Hi Troels,

          the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not
          always identical or complete, but you will find bits of it in the
          standard literature on the subject such as:

          Hartung, Wolfgang "Sueddeutschland in der fruhen Merowingerzeit.
          Studien zu Gesellschaft, Herrschaft, Stammesbildung bei Alamannen und
          Bajuwaren," Wiesbaden 1983

          some notes on the duke Fara are also in

          Eugen Ewig, "Die Merovinger und das Frankenreich",

          For a genealogy that is accessible on the internet, and which also has
          virtually all of the family-tree presented below, see the 'British
          Royal Geneologies' at:

          http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~bct/public/genealogy/royal/#Barbarian


          I know that you don't like the idea that members of the Herulic royal
          house could have remained in the area, as you are normally keen to
          argue that they migrated to Scandinavia. I suppose the possibly that
          some of them stayed behind does not excluded the possibility that
          others moved to Scandinavia.

          Looking at the 'usual' pattern when a people is defeated, it appears
          to be that more often than not the defeated elite gets absorbed into
          the new elites. This seems to hold true even for one-time mortal
          enemies. For the victors it is probably good policy to pacify an area
          with the help of the old elites, while at the same time removing the
          thread of the old leaders becoming a 'rallying point' for resistance.
          What is even more important, there were often pre-existing family
          links between the ruling elites of the different tribes, that would
          have facilitated the integration of the defeated elite. In fact, often
          the victorious king sought to underscore the legitimacy of his rule by
          marrying a princess or queen of the defeated people. (The Langobard
          Wacho married a Gepidic women and later a Herulic princess with the
          name Silinga. There daughters were married off to Frankish kings at
          Cologne (Wisigarda's grave under the Cathedral of Cologne))

          For the defeated elite it must be the most daunting and desperate
          thought to give up all pre-existing dynastic links and claims that
          could support a continued power base in the area. What should also not
          be underestimated is that many of the 'barbarian leaders' were
          accustomed to a life-style in Roman villas in a fairly moderate
          climate. To abandon all this consciously cannot have been the first
          and preferred choice. Thus, if any of the Herulic princes could
          establish himself in the local areas, with the help of powerful
          relatives, preferably at a former Roman centre like Augsburg, Passau
          or Wuerzburg he would probably have preferred this to the uncertainty
          of a life in a remote northern country, which literally must have
          seem like the end of the world to them. But again, some of them may
          not have been able to establish themselves locally, an the trek to
          Scandinavia was the only option for them.

          What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members of
          the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people of
          several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
          Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite, without
          any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
          been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known to
          have formed a large part of the population in these areas.

          cheers,

          Dirk














          >
          > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
          > Alamanni?
          >
          > Troels
          >
          > --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
          > >
          > > Hi Cory and Keth,
          > >
          > > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
          > influences
          > > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian ducal
          > > house, the Agilofings.
          > >
          > > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree looks
          > > something like this:
          > >
          > >
          > > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
          > >
          > > son:
          > > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
          > >
          > > first son of Fara:
          > > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
          > > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
          > >
          > > second son of Fara:
          > > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
          > > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
          > >
          > > children of Garibald:
          > > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic
          Kings)
          > > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died in
          > > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son
          was
          > > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
          > >
          > >
          > > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
          > > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
          > > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the complicated
          > > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at
          least
          > a
          > > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
          > >
          > >
          > > cheers,
          > >
          > > Dirk
        • keth@online.no
          Hi Dirk, ... I believe it was somewhat different. (but of course they also did use locals) The young people in Norway often left home and travelled South.
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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            Hi Dirk,
            You wrote:

            >What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members of
            >the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people of
            >several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
            >Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite, without
            >any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
            >been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known to
            >have formed a large part of the population in these areas.

            I believe it was somewhat different. (but of course they also did use locals)
            The young people in Norway often left home and travelled South.
            Maybe to do mercenary service. They also learned about peoples and
            trade routes that way. And they gained honour when they participated in
            battles. Thus they could come home later with so to speak a "university
            diploma" comparing with today, when young people are still sent abroad,
            because that is considered valuable asset for the young.
            Norway has a continual tradition of young men going on long journeys.
            Just think that the Norwegian merchant fleet used to be the worlds
            third. Only after USA and Britain. But pro capita it was the worlds
            largest. It was alays the ocean, the ocean. Since time immemorial.

            The Heruls were known for their "velocitas" and their "light armament"
            That is typical of a people coming from a mountainous country.
            They never lived right by the sea's shore. Old houses are always found
            somewhat uphill from the place where they had their boats.
            And the boats was the "automobile" of those days.
            It was still that way in W. Norway around 1950 or 60:
            Far more people had a boat than a car. And they used the boat
            for everything: fishing, shopping, going to church etc..
            So they had very strong arms (all the rowing)
            Also running home for the supper was maybe 10 minutes uphill.
            So they had very stong legs. Those were the good soldiers.

            Just go to Switzerland or Austria, and you still find young
            people in fantastic physical shape. It is the mountains
            that make them so fit. (just like the Columbian cyclists
            or the Ethiopian runners)


            >> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
            Yes, this is the man who was king of several peoples in W.Norway.
            See the Getica (in the beginning)

            >> > son:
            >> > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
            In Old Norse there is the corresponding name "Farþegn".
            It means something like "SeaServant", hence has a meaning that
            indicates a marine environment.



            I have also been reading Eugippius, and there also found
            many names on F. "Ferderuch" for example.
            Also: "Feletheus", "Onoulf", "Flaccitheus", "Feva", "Giso".
            Any ideas what they might nmean? Analogies etc?

            >> > first son of Fara:
            >> > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
            >> > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria

            With best regards
            Keth
          • dirk@smra.co.uk
            ... of ... of ... without ... to ... use locals) ... in ... university ... abroad, ... journeys. ... armament ... found ... Hi Keth, I am not exactly sure
            Message 5 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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              --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
              > Hi Dirk,
              > You wrote:
              >
              > >What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members
              of
              > >the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people
              of
              > >several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
              > >Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite,
              without
              > >any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
              > >been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known
              to
              > >have formed a large part of the population in these areas.
              >
              > I believe it was somewhat different. (but of course they also did
              use locals)
              > The young people in Norway often left home and travelled South.
              > Maybe to do mercenary service. They also learned about peoples and
              > trade routes that way. And they gained honour when they participated
              in
              > battles. Thus they could come home later with so to speak a
              "university
              > diploma" comparing with today, when young people are still sent
              abroad,
              > because that is considered valuable asset for the young.
              > Norway has a continual tradition of young men going on long
              journeys.
              > Just think that the Norwegian merchant fleet used to be the worlds
              > third. Only after USA and Britain. But pro capita it was the worlds
              > largest. It was alays the ocean, the ocean. Since time immemorial.
              >
              > The Heruls were known for their "velocitas" and their "light
              armament"
              > That is typical of a people coming from a mountainous country.
              > They never lived right by the sea's shore. Old houses are always
              found
              > somewhat uphill from the place where they had their boats.
              > And the boats was the "automobile" of those days.
              > It was still that way in W. Norway around 1950 or 60:
              > Far more people had a boat than a car. And they used the boat
              > for everything: fishing, shopping, going to church etc..
              > So they had very strong arms (all the rowing)
              > Also running home for the supper was maybe 10 minutes uphill.
              > So they had very stong legs. Those were the good soldiers.
              >
              > Just go to Switzerland or Austria, and you still find young
              > people in fantastic physical shape. It is the mountains
              > that make them so fit. (just like the Columbian cyclists
              > or the Ethiopian runners)



              Hi Keth,

              I am not exactly sure what you are arguing. The Danube/Panonnia Heruls
              were no mountain people and they did not live by the sea.
              Nevertheless, they may have been in good physical shape, although bone
              analysis ususally showed that people at these time died at around 40
              years and women a little earlier. They usually suffered mal-nutrition
              and/or severe/growth-impairing deceases at some stages in their lives.
              But how does that relate to a possible migration to Scandinavia?





              > >> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
              > Yes, this is the man who was king of several peoples in W.Norway.
              > See the Getica (in the beginning)


              No this is Roduulf, last king of the Heruls at the Danube. There was
              also a Thuringian king with that name. It seems to have been a popular
              name at the time.



              > >> > son:
              > >> > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
              > In Old Norse there is the corresponding name "Farþegn".
              > It means something like "SeaServant", hence has a meaning that
              > indicates a marine environment.
              >


              Fara, is a Germanic term attested for the Langobards and denoting a
              warrior group, somthing like a Hansa as far as I know. It is probably
              related to German 'Fahren', I suppose.




              > I have also been reading Eugippius, and there also found
              > many names on F. "Ferderuch" for example.
              > Also: "Feletheus", "Onoulf", "Flaccitheus", "Feva", "Giso".
              > Any ideas what they might nmean? Analogies etc?


              Some of the names like Feletheus, Feva etc. are those of Rugian kings
              near Passau. I don't know what their names mean. One Rugian
              king/prince -I think- was also called Fridrich, a name that is still
              very much in use today.


              best regards
              Dirk
            • dirk@smra.co.uk
              ... Hi again Keth and Troels, while Keth mentionend this Scandinavian king Roduulf who came to Theoderic, because he despised his homeland so much this seems
              Message 6 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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                > >> > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
                > Yes, this is the man who was king of several peoples in W.Norway.
                > See the Getica (in the beginning)
                >

                Hi again Keth and Troels,

                while Keth mentionend this Scandinavian king Roduulf who came to
                Theoderic, because he despised his homeland so much this seems to
                underscore how desperate any Herulic prince must have been to migrate
                to Scandinavia. Don't get me wrong, I find Scandinavia most beautiful,
                but if 6th century people were getting reports about a country that
                was so awfull that even a king would leave it if he could that must
                have been a discouraging prospect for any Herulic tribesman who was
                accustomed to the milder climate of Pannonia and even the sub-tropical
                climate of the Black Sea. Remember, Jordanes/Cassiordorus had already
                described Scandinavia as a place were humans can hardly live and that
                was cruel even to beasts.

                cheers,

                Dirk
              • dirk@smra.co.uk
                ... Hi Troels, this last question of yours had escaped my attention. I am no expert, but there is nothing inherently Bavarian or Alamannic in the grave goods.
                Message 7 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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                  --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:

                  > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
                  > Alamanni?
                  >
                  > Troels

                  Hi Troels,

                  this last question of yours had escaped my attention. I am no expert,
                  but there is nothing inherently Bavarian or Alamannic in the grave
                  goods. There are however, local variantions in fibula styles,
                  pottery-shapes etc. which are associated with the one or the other
                  group or sub-groups. Especially for the Bavarians who grew together
                  from many different tribes and ethnic groups it is naturally difficult
                  to inditfy anything typical Bavarian.

                  I have mentioned the Phalheim horse warriors in Bavaria many times
                  before. These people were dressed and equipped in exclusively East
                  Germanic/Byzantine/Italian fashion and for a long time they had
                  even been identified as Herul mercenaries. However, the archaeologist
                  Wilfried Menghin re-interpreted them as Alamanns. As you know, a few
                  fibulae cannot be used to identify ethnic shifts as trade and commerce
                  will have dispersed local styles swiftly.

                  cheers,

                  Dirk
                • Troels Brandt
                  Hi Dirk In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854, 4855, 4856 and 4857. First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
                  Message 8 of 18 , Aug 6, 2001
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                    Hi Dirk

                    In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851, 4854,
                    4855, 4856 and 4857.

                    First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
                    discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
                    Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
                    primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
                    not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was a
                    boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
                    settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
                    describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
                    Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
                    Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.

                    The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
                    for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
                    about this Fara several times without getting his background
                    confirmed. If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
                    why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
                    Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
                    that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
                    geneologies in the Norse "literature".

                    Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
                    sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                    information we have about the Heruls. I agree that the Heruls split
                    up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married into
                    another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
                    to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
                    still guesswork.

                    I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do I
                    find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
                    rule in Phalheim?

                    The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes even
                    called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training -
                    this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars earlier
                    discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
                    several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
                    warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
                    and old people - and how could they keep their own religion? Read my
                    note 63 as you read note 32.

                    We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich was
                    a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
                    was not identical to the king in Pannonia.

                    We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
                    Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
                    anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
                    Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
                    do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
                    do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
                    the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
                    their neighbours - including the Lombards! His information is
                    confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
                    Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
                    to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
                    Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
                    Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in Thule,
                    and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
                    by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
                    contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
                    should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
                    the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
                    makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
                    covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
                    Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

                    I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
                    of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
                    investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
                    the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.

                    Concerning our earlier mails about Harlingen a member from Germanic
                    List has told, that the name in Netherland probably derive from a
                    Frisian word and not from Heruls. This does not change the
                    explanation of the Ostfrisian Harlinger Land, which I am still trying
                    to check.

                    Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
                    Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
                    neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
                    dispised Edda-"literature"?

                    Troels


                    --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                    > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                    > > Hi Dirk
                    > >
                    > > I remember you last year joined a discussion, where an Austrian
                    > > webbsite with Fara was mentioned, but following your policy
                    > regarding
                    > > Jordanes, Paulus Diaconus and the Norse "literature", how about
                    > proof
                    > > and sources regarding the geneology below?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Hi Troels,
                    >
                    > the Agilofing genealogy can be found in many secondary sources. Not
                    > always identical or complete, but you will find bits of it in the
                    > standard literature on the subject such as:
                    >
                    > Hartung, Wolfgang "Sueddeutschland in der fruhen Merowingerzeit.
                    > Studien zu Gesellschaft, Herrschaft, Stammesbildung bei Alamannen
                    und
                    > Bajuwaren," Wiesbaden 1983
                    >
                    > some notes on the duke Fara are also in
                    >
                    > Eugen Ewig, "Die Merovinger und das Frankenreich",
                    >
                    > For a genealogy that is accessible on the internet, and which also
                    has
                    > virtually all of the family-tree presented below, see the 'British
                    > Royal Geneologies' at:
                    >
                    > http://www.tardis.ed.ac.uk/~bct/public/genealogy/royal/#Barbarian
                    >
                    >
                    > I know that you don't like the idea that members of the Herulic
                    royal
                    > house could have remained in the area, as you are normally keen to
                    > argue that they migrated to Scandinavia. I suppose the possibly
                    that
                    > some of them stayed behind does not excluded the possibility that
                    > others moved to Scandinavia.
                    >
                    > Looking at the 'usual' pattern when a people is defeated, it
                    appears
                    > to be that more often than not the defeated elite gets absorbed
                    into
                    > the new elites. This seems to hold true even for one-time mortal
                    > enemies. For the victors it is probably good policy to pacify an
                    area
                    > with the help of the old elites, while at the same time removing
                    the
                    > thread of the old leaders becoming a 'rallying point' for
                    resistance.
                    > What is even more important, there were often pre-existing family
                    > links between the ruling elites of the different tribes, that would
                    > have facilitated the integration of the defeated elite. In fact,
                    often
                    > the victorious king sought to underscore the legitimacy of his rule
                    by
                    > marrying a princess or queen of the defeated people. (The Langobard
                    > Wacho married a Gepidic women and later a Herulic princess with the
                    > name Silinga. There daughters were married off to Frankish kings at
                    > Cologne (Wisigarda's grave under the Cathedral of Cologne))
                    >
                    > For the defeated elite it must be the most daunting and desperate
                    > thought to give up all pre-existing dynastic links and claims that
                    > could support a continued power base in the area. What should also
                    not
                    > be underestimated is that many of the 'barbarian leaders' were
                    > accustomed to a life-style in Roman villas in a fairly moderate
                    > climate. To abandon all this consciously cannot have been the first
                    > and preferred choice. Thus, if any of the Herulic princes could
                    > establish himself in the local areas, with the help of powerful
                    > relatives, preferably at a former Roman centre like Augsburg,
                    Passau
                    > or Wuerzburg he would probably have preferred this to the
                    uncertainty
                    > of a life in a remote northern country, which literally must have
                    > seem like the end of the world to them. But again, some of them may
                    > not have been able to establish themselves locally, an the trek to
                    > Scandinavia was the only option for them.
                    >
                    > What do you estimate how many Heruls moved to Scandinavia? Members
                    of
                    > the royal familiy with a couple of hundred retainers? Or a people
                    of
                    > several thousands or even tens of thousands? My view is that the
                    > Heruls in Pannonia consisted in fact only of a warrior elite,
                    without
                    > any large ethnical Herulic people. Thus, 'their people' would have
                    > been mainly local Danube Suevi, romanised Celts etc, who are known
                    to
                    > have formed a large part of the population in these areas.
                    >
                    > cheers,
                    >
                    > Dirk
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Is it easy to separate archaeological finds from Bavarians and
                    > > Alamanni?
                    > >
                    > > Troels
                    > >
                    > > --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hi Cory and Keth,
                    > > >
                    > > > I suppose one aspect that reflects the ethnic and historic
                    > > influences
                    > > > on the Bajuvarii quite well is the geneology of the Bavarian
                    ducal
                    > > > house, the Agilofings.
                    > > >
                    > > > The first duke of all Bavaria is Garibald I. His family tree
                    looks
                    > > > something like this:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Roduulf King of the Heruls, son-in-arms of Theoderic
                    > > >
                    > > > son:
                    > > > Fara, Herulic Prince, and Bavarian duke, died 535AD
                    > > >
                    > > > first son of Fara:
                    > > > 1. Sinduald, Herulic Prince, died 565 AD
                    > > > son of Sinduald: TASSILO I, Duke of Bavaria
                    > > >
                    > > > second son of Fara:
                    > > > 2. GARIBALD, Bavarian duke
                    > > > married Wulderade, Langobardic Princess
                    > > >
                    > > > children of Garibald:
                    > > > 1. Theudeline (married Authari and later Agiulf, Langobardic
                    > Kings)
                    > > > 2. Gundoald (Langobardic Duke of Asti, and father of Aripert I)
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > There is also another Bavarian duke with the name Fara who died
                    in
                    > > > 641AD. His father was Chrodoald, a Langobardic duke and his son
                    > was
                    > > > Theodo II, duke of Bavaria.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > According to this geneology, the Bavarian ducal house of the
                    > > > Agilofings is an extention of the Herulic royal house and the
                    > > > Langobardic royal house. Apart from demonstrating the
                    complicated
                    > > > dynastic relationships, it also seems to show the fate of (at
                    > least
                    > > a
                    > > > part) of the royal house of the Heruls.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > cheers,
                    > > >
                    > > > Dirk
                  • dirk@smra.co.uk
                    ... 4854, ... a ... Hi Troels, sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that
                    Message 9 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
                    • 0 Attachment
                      --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                      > Hi Dirk
                      >
                      > In this letter I will try to answer or comment your mails 4851,
                      4854,
                      > 4855, 4856 and 4857.
                      >
                      > First of all I am not driven by the local patriotism eagerly
                      > discussed between you and some Scandinavian members here and at
                      > Germanic list. As a matter of fact the Danish part of my work has
                      > primarily become an appendix to Swedish history - even though I do
                      > not want to support them as they always won in football, when I was
                      a
                      > boy. I don't mind if some members of the royal Herulian family
                      > settled around Pannonia instead of migrating to Scandinavia as you
                      > describe below. Actually you later found my example regarding the
                      > Brents in 560 (4856) showing the opposite and I also mentioned
                      > Silinga, so I expect you have already given up this claim.
                      >


                      Hi Troels,

                      sorry if I threw you in the wrong pot, but experience taught me that
                      some people are eager to prove only one thing, namely that everything
                      Germanic is Scandinavian, migrated from Scandinavia or back to
                      Scandinavia. This does not even need to originate from 'bad'
                      intentions, but since there is usually little opposition to these
                      views from others, I seemed to end up pointing to the significance of
                      other areas and peoples as well.

                      In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
                      borders for the study of Germanic history. However, I must admit the
                      fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
                      slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
                      but that is resolved now :)



                      > The purpose behind my question was only to find the primary source
                      > for the genealogy, which I am interested to know, as I have read
                      > about this Fara several times without getting his background
                      > confirmed.


                      There are at least two Bavarian dukes with the name Fara. Both were
                      'only' dukes of parts of Bavaria or dukes 'in' Bavaria as opposed to
                      'of' Bavaria. At least that is my understanding.



                      If an important part of the male dynasty lived in Bavaria
                      > why did the Illyrian Heruls send their deputies all the way to
                      > Scandinavia to find a candidate of royal blood? I could be afraid
                      > that the quality of this Bavarian geneology is similar to the
                      > geneologies in the Norse "literature".


                      The Agilofing genealogy is not derived from legends or sagas, but at
                      any rate, the exact relationships among the dukes is not undisputed.
                      I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a
                      new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
                      Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is one
                      of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I know
                      you don't agree, which is fine.




                      > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is common
                      > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                      > information we have about the Heruls.


                      But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                      receives too little attention when people try to re-construct history
                      on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use' of
                      this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people like
                      Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                      behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                      theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                      leads if sources are scarce.

                      I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                      events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else around
                      it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability and
                      intentions of the authors of the sources.




                      > I agree that the Heruls split
                      > up and I agree that at least one daughter of Roduulf was married
                      into
                      > another dynasty in Southern Europe, while I suspect Fara more likely
                      > to be the son of such a daughter than a son of Roduulf - but this is
                      > still guesswork.

                      >
                      > I remember your referal to the Donaukurier about Phalheim. Where do
                      I
                      > find the discussions about Menghin's theory? Did Fara's decendants
                      > rule in Phalheim?


                      I am not aware that any particular area is assigned to Fara, but that
                      could be my ignorance. Fara II ruled in North Bavaria around Wuerzburg
                      as far as I know. According to the genealogy Fara I decendents became
                      dukes of all Bavaria in the form of Garibald I and Sindualt's son
                      Tassilo. I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
                      Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but shall
                      try to dig it up again.





                      >
                      > The idea about the Pannonian Heruls as a warrior band (sometimes
                      even
                      > called homosexuals) is by some scholars used as academical training
                      -
                      > this is the best way I can explain the view of these scholars
                      earlier
                      > discussed at this list in February 2001. However Procopius used
                      > several pages to describe the Heruls as a people. How could a
                      > warriorband exist as a people for 250 years without children, women
                      > and old people - and how could they keep their own religion?


                      I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
                      Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of ruling
                      families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube Suevi,
                      Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.

                      There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall in
                      Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire. After a
                      while they integrated in the local population and service along the
                      Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
                      formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with the
                      decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
                      chieftain-families originating from former army service placing there
                      head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.

                      The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
                      Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
                      lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It is
                      possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
                      that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


                      Read my
                      > note 63 as you read note 32.
                      >
                      > We do not know if the Roduulf arriving to the court of Theodorich
                      was
                      > a Herul as the text of Jordanes is unclear about this. At least he
                      > was not identical to the king in Pannonia.
                      >
                      > We do not know how many the Pannonian Heruls and later the Illyrian
                      > Heruls were, as the figures of some mercenaries do not tell us
                      > anything but a minimum. This topic was discussed at Gothic-l around
                      > Christmas 1999. As handling of figures is a part of my profession I
                      > do not play magician with estimated average figures as some scholars
                      > do. Our most reliable information is given by Procopius describing
                      > the Pannonian Heruls as superior in number and power subduing all
                      > their neighbours - including the Lombards!



                      There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled over
                      a large majority. I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
                      your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be seen
                      as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
                      people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?



                      His information is
                      > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
                      > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no reason
                      > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless the
                      > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of Justinian.
                      > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
                      Thule,
                      > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to Illyria
                      > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The last
                      > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
                      > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story about
                      > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
                      > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
                      > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier discussed
                      > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).


                      In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
                      reliability of Procopius.




                      > I have to search in my old computer to find the source for the king
                      > of the Brents (4857). As he ruled later than the period I
                      > investigated, I did not pay him much attention, and I first noticed
                      > the connection with the Bavarians in your mail last week.



                      That would really be of interest to me. These Brennones or Brents were
                      a barely romanised Celtic people in Tyrol that was renowned for its
                      'wildness' even in the sevenths and eights century.



                      >
                      > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
                      > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
                      > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
                      > dispised Edda-"literature"?


                      What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not be
                      further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use as
                      historical source.


                      cheers,

                      Dirk
                    • Troels Brandt
                      Hi Dirk ... I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of which country you got your education in - even among professionals (10 years
                      Message 10 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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                        Hi Dirk

                        --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                        > --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                        >
                        .........
                        > In general, I stress the complete insignificance of modern national
                        > borders for the study of Germanic history.

                        I am afraid the education in history and archaeology is dependent of
                        which country you got your education in - even among professionals
                        (10 years ago archaeology more than history). There will always be a
                        local element in the education and missing elements from other
                        countries causing different points of view. Neither you or I are
                        exceptions.

                        > However, I must admit the
                        > fact that you studied the subject in-depth, but still made not the
                        > slightes mentioning of the Agilofing-dynasty made me slightly wary,
                        > but that is resolved now :)


                        I did not trust this information, and I don't regard it as important,
                        that a person is mentioned in a geneology as a Herulian prince. We do
                        not know how to use this information which could just be due to
                        marriage or exile. My website does not pretend to contain all
                        information about the Heruls.


                        > I shall try to find out the source. Why the Illyrian Heruls send
                        for a
                        > new king from Thule when there were likely several members of the
                        > Herulic dynasty around in close proximity, I don't know. But it is
                        one
                        > of these reports that I personally find improbable anyway, but I
                        know
                        > you don't agree, which is fine.
                        >

                        Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                        between Andreas, you and me
                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                        - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

                        ........
                        > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                        common
                        > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                        > > information we have about the Heruls.
                        >
                        >
                        > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                        > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                        history
                        > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
                        of
                        > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
                        like
                        > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                        > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                        > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                        > leads if sources are scarce.
                        >
                        > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                        > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                        around
                        > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
                        and
                        > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                        >

                        I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                        history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
                        of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected - I
                        think we mix sources and testing tools.

                        .......
                        > I have given the source of Menghin's reattribution of the
                        > Phalheim warrior's to the Alamanni somewhere on this list, but
                        shall
                        > try to dig it up again.


                        I have tried to search for "Phalheim", but found only one message at
                        Germanic List.

                        ........
                        > I did not argue that they were only a warrior band. I said that in
                        > Pannonia it is possible that they formed only a thin elite of
                        ruling
                        > families, because the bulk of the population were likly Danube
                        Suevi,
                        > Roman provincials, romanised Celts etc.


                        Actually their kingdom was supposed to be north of Danube in Moravia,
                        Wiener Viertel and Marchfeld.


                        > There is an intersting case of Roman troops along the Hadrians wall
                        in
                        > Britain. Initially the soldiers came from all-over the empire.
                        After a
                        > while they integrated in the local population and service along the
                        > Hadrian's wall became 'hereditary' among these families. Thus, they
                        > formed a self-perpetuating military unit that over time and with
                        the
                        > decline of Roman rule became warrior bands/tribes with
                        > chieftain-families originating from former army service placing
                        there
                        > head-quarters in dis-used Roman fortresses.
                        >
                        > The Heruls are often mentioned in their role as Roman mercenaries.
                        > Apparently, service in or along side the Roman army had become a
                        > lucrative and attractive 'occupation' for many Germanic people. It
                        is
                        > possible that the Herul tribe originated from tribal warrior bands
                        > that had formed a symbiotic relationship with the Roman army.


                        We already heard about the Heruls in the 3rd century at the Black Sea
                        and in Frisia. The first mercenaries were mentioned in the 4th
                        century (probably Western Heruls) while the Eastern Heruls probably
                        followed the Huns to Pannonia as the Ostrogoths. However it is
                        natural that the mercenaries were mentioned more often than the
                        people behind, which did not interest the Roman writers.

                        >
                        > There are countless cases in history where a small minority ruled
                        over
                        > a large majority.


                        Probably, but Procopius wrote " .. superior in number ..".


                        > I was not asking you to perform number-magic, just
                        > your opinion as to the Herul migration to Scandinavia should be
                        seen
                        > as a mass-migration of tens of thousands of people (i.e. a real
                        > people) or just a royal family with a couple of hundred retainers?


                        I answered this below. If you want to hear my guess, I think they
                        formed a small but strong army (1000-5000 warriors with family)
                        followed by people they met on their way, and I expect they only
                        formed a superior class in Scandinavia. This sounds nearly like your
                        own theory about Pannonia, mentioned above - but the explanation is
                        only a guess.

                        .......
                        >
                        > His information is
                        > > confirmed by the role they played under Odoacer, Theodorich and
                        > > Justinian. If the royal family had no supporters there was no
                        reason
                        > > to ask for a king from this family in Thule - but nevertheless
                        the
                        > > Illyrian Heruls asked for this king against the will of
                        Justinian.
                        > > Still 35 years later the deputies found many of royal blood in
                        > Thule,
                        > > and the dispensable Datius and his brother were followed to
                        Illyria
                        > > by 200 young warriors, who must also have been dispensable. The
                        last
                        > > contemporary information from Procopius alone indicates that you
                        > > should count them in more than hundreds - but the whole story
                        about
                        > > the split, the settlement in Thule and the search for a new king
                        > > makes only sense if the group around this accepted royal family
                        > > covered a substantial part of the Heruls. We have earlier
                        discussed
                        > > Procopius as a reliable source (a.e. G-L 3374/3382).

                        >
                        > In my view only a thorough philological analysis can reveal the
                        > reliability of Procopius.


                        Maybe this is your view, but then I would not even mention Fara if I
                        were you.

                        ........
                        > >
                        > > Just a joke! Are you aware that you until now have shown that the
                        > > Herulian dynasty placed 3 kings in Germany or its southern
                        > > neighbours, which might confirm some similarity with Snorre's
                        > > dispised Edda-"literature"?
                        >
                        >
                        > What makes you think that I dispise Edda-literature? This could not
                        be
                        > further from the truth. I only caution against its unreserved use
                        as
                        > historical source.
                        >

                        I did not necessarily refer to you.

                        Kindly regards
                        Troels
                      • jpisc98357@aol.com
                        In a message dated 8/7/01 4:55:37 AM Central Daylight Time, dirk@smra.co.uk ... Best regards, John Piscopo http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com PO Box 137 Western
                        Message 11 of 18 , Aug 7, 2001
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                          In a message dated 8/7/01 4:55:37 AM Central Daylight Time, dirk@...
                          > Why the Illyrian Heruls send for a new king from Thule when there
                          > were likely several members of the Herulic dynasty around in close
                          > proximity, I don't know. But it is one of these reports that I personally
                          > find improbable anyway, but I know you don't agree, which is fine.
                          >
                          > Dear Dirk,
                          >
                          > While members of the Royal Family of the Heruls may have been around
                          > there might not have been one of age and experience to serve as War Lord in
                          > a time when one was desperately needed. Military necessity may have
                          > trumped the convenience of a local child or incompetent. Assume a council
                          > of chiefs with the decision making power to choose the new War Lord, with
                          > enemies on all frontiers they might have asked a remote royal relative to
                          >

                          Best regards, John Piscopo
                          http://www.johnpiscoposwords.com
                          PO Box 137
                          Western Springs, IL 60558-0137
                          (708)246-7111


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • dirk@smra.co.uk
                          ... Hi Troels, saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read Procopius and to
                          Message 12 of 18 , Aug 8, 2001
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                            >
                            > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                            > between Andreas, you and me
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                            > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.

                            Hi Troels,

                            saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
                            common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read Procopius
                            and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
                            all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
                            also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have used.
                            You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
                            vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For example
                            some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
                            Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius could
                            have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a distorted
                            picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
                            some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
                            from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his informers
                            is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
                            not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
                            actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
                            interpretations must be considered.









                            > ........
                            > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                            > common
                            > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                            > > > information we have about the Heruls.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                            > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                            > history
                            > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources. Actual 'use'
                            > of
                            > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to people
                            > like
                            > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                            > > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call it
                            > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the best
                            > > leads if sources are scarce.
                            > >
                            > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                            > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                            > around
                            > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the reliability
                            > and
                            > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                            > >
                            >
                            > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                            > history based on our expectations according to common sense instead
                            > of using the sources we have - even when the result is unexpected -
                            I
                            > think we mix sources and testing tools.


                            Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
                            history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
                            impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
                            events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why he
                            may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
                            expected instead of blindly believing his every word.

                            cheers,

                            Dirk
                          • Troels Brandt
                            Hi Dirk I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago. When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron, Ellegaard
                            Message 13 of 18 , Aug 8, 2001
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                              Hi Dirk

                              I see no point in a continuation of the discussion we had a month ago.

                              When I got interested in the Heruls I read Goffart, Averil Cameron,
                              Ellegaard e.t.c. - just like you - and some Danish literature too. I
                              was really surprised when I afterwards read a translation of
                              Procopius' own text. I am sure I had not made so many mistakes in the
                              beginning, if I had first read Procopius, then the other authors,
                              then the comparable sources and then Procopius again.

                              My advise is: Don't do the same mistake as I did. I am glad that only
                              a few people heard about my preliminary results based on the indirect
                              sources alone.

                              Troels


                              --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Exactly this event (Datius/Suartuas) has been discussed before
                              > > between Andreas, you and me
                              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gothic-l/message/3374
                              > > - and I still prefer to read Procopius for Goffart.
                              >
                              > Hi Troels,
                              >
                              > saying that you prefer to read Procopius over Goffart seems like
                              > common sense, but it is somewhat beside the point. To read
                              Procopius
                              > and to even begin to understand Procopius you have to read not only
                              > all works of Procopius (as Averil Cameron has pointed out), but you
                              > also have to know all the sources that Procopius has or may have
                              used.
                              > You would need to understand Procopius' intentions, his stand-point
                              > vis-a-vis imperial policy towards barbarian people etc.. For
                              example
                              > some of his writing may have been influenced by a hatred of
                              > Justinian's policies. While this is only an example, Procopius
                              could
                              > have hand-picked events that -although true- provide only a
                              distorted
                              > picture. Also, it is said that he was a 'bad' writer, meaning that
                              > some of the events that he wanted to inform about may have suffered
                              > from this deficiency. Also, the possible stand-point of his
                              informers
                              > is likely to have influenced his reports. In short, I believe it is
                              > not a question of reading either Procopius or Goffart (who hasn't
                              > actually written too much about Procopius), but all sources and
                              > interpretations must be considered.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > > ........
                              > > > > Your explanation below about defeated dynasties in general is
                              > > common
                              > > > > sense to me, but it is not in accordance with the specific
                              > > > > information we have about the Heruls.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > But this 'common sense', or shall we call it theory, too often
                              > > > receives too little attention when people try to re-construct
                              > > history
                              > > > on the basis of only a single or a couple of sources.
                              Actual 'use'
                              > > of
                              > > > this common sense could have directed you much earlier to
                              people
                              > > like
                              > > > Fara, who seemed to have conformed with the 'usual' pattern of
                              > > > behaviour. In general, it is this common sense (lets not call
                              it
                              > > > theory, as historians usually dispise theory) which gives the
                              best
                              > > > leads if sources are scarce.
                              > > >
                              > > > I think that if one contemporary source reports rather unlikely
                              > > > events, people tend to believe that and adjust everything else
                              > > around
                              > > > it in order to 'fit it in' instead of questioning the
                              reliability
                              > > and
                              > > > intentions of the authors of the sources.
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > > I read about Fara a year ago at a website. If we construct the
                              > > history based on our expectations according to common sense
                              instead
                              > > of using the sources we have - even when the result is
                              unexpected -
                              > I
                              > > think we mix sources and testing tools.
                              >
                              >
                              > Nobody said that we should ignore the sources and constructing
                              > history on the basis of common sense/theory alone is of course
                              > impossible. But if sources are as scarce as in the 6th century and
                              > events are only reported by one author it is always good to ask why
                              he
                              > may have reported this and why he did not report what we might have
                              > expected instead of blindly believing his every word.
                              >
                              > cheers,
                              >
                              > Dirk
                            • dirk@smra.co.uk
                              Hi Troells, one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the name of the Herulic king Datius , who according to Procopius travelled from
                              Message 14 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                                Hi Troells,

                                one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the
                                name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                                travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                                likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given to
                                an otherwise unknown king?

                                It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share a
                                name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop St
                                Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of the
                                time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                                was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                                Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his name
                                might have been an important political message at the time. This is of
                                course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                                i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.


                                thanks
                                Dirk
                              • keth@online.no
                                Hi Dirk, I saw it mentioned in one of the books two days ago, that Datius may have been the same legendary name as occurs in Saxo Grammaticus. But there it
                                Message 15 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                                  Hi Dirk,
                                  I saw it mentioned in one of the books two days ago, that
                                  "Datius" may have been the same legendary name as occurs
                                  in Saxo Grammaticus. But there it was king "Dan". (was
                                  it in Menghin? Am not sure any more)

                                  Keth


                                  >Hi Troells,
                                  >
                                  >one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of the
                                  >name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                                  >travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                                  >likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given to
                                  >an otherwise unknown king?
                                  >
                                  >It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share a
                                  >name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop St
                                  >Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of the
                                  > time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                                  >was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                                  >Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his name
                                  >might have been an important political message at the time. This is of
                                  >course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                                  >i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >thanks
                                  >Dirk
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >You are a member of the Gothic-L list. To unsubscribe, send a blank email to <gothic-l-unsubscribe@egroups.com>.
                                  >
                                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                • Troels Brandt
                                  Hi Dirk I don t have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to return in the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Aug 9, 2001
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                                    Hi Dirk

                                    I don't have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about
                                    the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to return
                                    in the weekend.

                                    However I remember a discussion about a connection to Danus (Dane or
                                    Dan, which was a common royal name in the Danish cronicles) - and
                                    this could again lead to the discussion Dania/Dacia, which you
                                    mention.

                                    The first candidate - whom he succeeded - died by a disease among the
                                    Danes, so there might even be a connection there. Datius probably
                                    died in Dacia, but that was after Procopius wrote the name.

                                    I have also seen a connection mentioned to one of the first Svea-
                                    kings in Ynglingatal, Dag (=Day).

                                    If we remove the -us or -ius, the name is very short. I believe
                                    misunderstandings in such cases are likely, and also the combination
                                    is probable in many languages.

                                    However Datius expelled the Herulian general Suartuas. I am sure he
                                    remembered his name and Procopius probably listened to Suartuas. I
                                    don't think he was mixed up with or got his name from a Milanese
                                    bishop.

                                    Troels





                                    --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
                                    > Hi Troells,
                                    >
                                    > one more question if I may. Are you aware of any interpretation of
                                    the
                                    > name of the Herulic king 'Datius', who according to Procopius
                                    > travelled from Thule to the Danube area? Do you think that it is
                                    > likely his real name, a corruption of his real name or a name given
                                    to
                                    > an otherwise unknown king?
                                    >
                                    > It is interesting to note that a pagan Herul from Thule would share
                                    a
                                    > name with the famous bishop of Milan, who died in 552AD. The Bishop
                                    St
                                    > Datius was expelled from Italy by the Ostrogoths and lived most of
                                    the
                                    > time in Constantinople. As he was highly criticle of Justinian, he
                                    > was likely of great interest to Procopius. Like an earlier Saint
                                    > Datius in Africa, Datius of Milan was also sanctified. Using his
                                    name
                                    > might have been an important political message at the time. This is
                                    of
                                    > course pure speculation. The name itself means probably the Dacian,
                                    > i.e. man from Dacia, as Dacia was also written Datia.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > thanks
                                    > Dirk
                                  • dirk@smra.co.uk
                                    ... return ... the ... Hi Troels, that was not really what I meant, but anyway, here is the promised URL to an article by Menghin, in which he re-interprets
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Aug 10, 2001
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                                      --- In gothic-l@y..., "Troels Brandt" <trbrandt@p...> wrote:
                                      > Hi Dirk
                                      >
                                      > I don't have my notes here, and I also owe you an explanation about
                                      > the Brents, which Bertil supplemented some days ago. I hope to
                                      return
                                      > in the weekend.
                                      >
                                      > However I remember a discussion about a connection to Danus (Dane or
                                      > Dan, which was a common royal name in the Danish cronicles) - and
                                      > this could again lead to the discussion Dania/Dacia, which you
                                      > mention.
                                      >
                                      > The first candidate - whom he succeeded - died by a disease among
                                      the
                                      > Danes, so there might even be a connection there. Datius probably
                                      > died in Dacia, but that was after Procopius wrote the name.
                                      >
                                      > I have also seen a connection mentioned to one of the first Svea-
                                      > kings in Ynglingatal, Dag (=Day).
                                      >
                                      > If we remove the -us or -ius, the name is very short. I believe
                                      > misunderstandings in such cases are likely, and also the combination
                                      > is probable in many languages.
                                      >
                                      > However Datius expelled the Herulian general Suartuas. I am sure he
                                      > remembered his name and Procopius probably listened to Suartuas. I
                                      > don't think he was mixed up with or got his name from a Milanese
                                      > bishop.
                                      >
                                      > Troels



                                      Hi Troels,

                                      that was not really what I meant, but anyway, here is the promised URL
                                      to an article by Menghin, in which he re-interprets the Phalheim
                                      horsemen as Alamannic noblemen.

                                      http://www.dhm.de/ausstellungen/walhall/pfahl.htm

                                      The site is difficult to read, but other articles are also of
                                      interest. BTW, I have heard that the catalog of the recent exhibition
                                      of the Phalheim horse warriors in the Germanische National
                                      Museum in Nuremberg, stresses the East Germanic/Byzantine nature of
                                      their equipment more than Menghin did.

                                      cheers,
                                      Dirk


                                      PS You mentioned the Varnies, or better Varni in an earlier message.
                                      As far as I know not much is known about them. They were closely
                                      associated with the Thuringians and may actually have been part of the
                                      Thuringians or became part of the Thuringian kingdom as it expanded
                                      north-westwards. Together with the Western Heruls, the Varni (and
                                      Thuringians) were allied with the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. Apparently
                                      , Visigothic kings like Euric, but also Theoderic the Great, sought
                                      their alliance as counter-balance against the Franks. A Varnian with
                                      the name Agiwulf reached a high-ranking position at the Visigothic
                                      court and was one-time duke of the formerly Suevic areas of north-west
                                      Spain. Like the Western Heruls, the Varni seemed to have had some
                                      sort of minor kingdom at the Lower Rhine area. I don't know whether or
                                      not the river and town name Warnow and the town name Warnemuende (at
                                      the Baltic Sea) have anything to do with the Varni, but I think it is
                                      rather unlikely.
                                    • Troels Brandt
                                      Hi Dirk Thanks for the information about Phalheim. I have not found my original note about the Brents, which had something to do with Paulus Diaconus, but
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Aug 12, 2001
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                                        Hi Dirk

                                        Thanks for the information about Phalheim.

                                        I have not found my original note about the Brents, which had
                                        something to do with Paulus Diaconus, but anyway I can refer you to
                                        Ludwig Schmidt. In his "Die Ostgermanen" you can – at least in my
                                        version - at page 558 (Die Gepiden, Taifalen, Heruler) read about
                                        this Sinduald.

                                        Regarding Fara I had some progress – also reading Schmidt again – as
                                        300 Heruls joined the Persian War in 530 with an officer named Fara
                                        (Source: Procopius' Persian Wars) and around 534 this Fara commanded
                                        400 Heruls against the Vandals. He might be the Herulian prince (or a
                                        relative) dying in 535 in Bavaria – making (if correct) this dynasty
                                        a part of the Herulian mercenaries. In this way he belonged to the
                                        group crossing the Danube and settling in Illyria in 512 (around
                                        Singidudum) – opposite the royal group leaving earlier for
                                        Scandinavia. The Illyrian group was split several times after 512,
                                        and some of their nobles may have joined other people like Sinduald
                                        and maybe Fara. However we can't be sure we are talking about the
                                        same Fara.

                                        Ludwig Schmidt had also noticed Harlinger Land, Herilungoburg and
                                        some other place names containing Harl-. He doubted there was a
                                        connection to the Heruls, but as he did not mention "your" old
                                        versions of Harlingen he possibly missed a point. He combined the
                                        names with the Harlungen dynasty. I am still searching for the
                                        Harlingen-source.

                                        After what I have read the Varnies lived in the Mecklenburg area.
                                        Later they went southwest ending as a part of the Saxons. However I
                                        have never been interested in the Varnies as you have been interested
                                        in the Saxons so you probably know better.

                                        Troels
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