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Re: [gothic-l] Amali insignia

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  • sunburst
    Hails Bertil! ... That would appear to be so. Still, it seemed to have an importance to the Amali kings after Ermanaric. ... Right, so some of these
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
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      Hails Bertil!

      >One could speculate in the Gothic insignia (you seem
      >to have documented their mentioning well) not being of Germanic
      >origin, maybe Sassinid origin, as you point out.


      That would appear to be so. Still, it seemed to have an importance to the
      Amali kings after Ermanaric.

      >In the Swedish translation of _Getica_ two different
      >translations in 246 and 278 are used. Once "mark of
      >distinction" (utmaerkelsetecken) and once insignia
      >(insignier). But that don't carry much siginificance
      >compared to the latin original. Insignia are of course mainly today
      >preserved within the church (for bishops and archbishops)
      >but crown, spire, and apple are also still royal insignia.
      >There are a number of Visigothic crowns, but they
      >are used for church decoration.


      Right, so some of these references to insignia may not be to a particular
      symbol, but to some piece of regalia such as a diadem or crown.

      >Good luck, though, in your search. Please keep the list
      >informed if you find anything.


      Thank you, and if I find anything, I will let you know.

      Albareiks
    • Beril Haggman
      Albareiks, Thanks for your latest. Did some additional research but found no details on the Amali insignia. Eruli Eruli royal insignia seem to have at one
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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        Albareiks,

        Thanks for your latest. Did some additional
        research but found no details on the Amali
        insignia.

        Eruli

        Eruli royal insignia seem to have at one
        stage been taken by Lombard King Tato
        "vexillum, quod bandum appelant" (a banner). Also Rodulf's
        helmet would have been an insignia.

        Theoderic the Great (vestis regia=royal dress)

        He sported a lance and shield as we know from
        the Roek Stone and other sources.

        Totila, 6th century AD

        He is said to have a helmet, that could have
        had Iranian or Byzantine origin art work.

        Athalaric and Amalaswintha

        Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
        know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
        cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
        Amalaswintha a tiara.

        Langobard and Visigothic kings were to some degree
        crowned. Evidence from the Monza and Guarrazar treasures).

        The wearing of trabeas by Visigothic kings is mentioned
        in some material (trabea=a cermonial toga).

        But of Amal insignia descriptions no trace so far.

        Gothically

        Bertil
      • M. Carver
        on 8/3/01 12:27 AM, Beril Haggman at mvk575b@tninet.se wrote: Athalaric and Amalaswintha Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don t know what pilos
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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          on 8/3/01 12:27 AM, Beril Haggman at mvk575b@... wrote:

          Athalaric and Amalaswintha

          Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
          know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
          cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
          Amalaswintha a tiara.


          Liddell and Scott say for Pilos from classical Greek sources:

          I wool or hair made into felt, used as a lining for helmets; for shoes. II
          anything made of felt, a felt skullcap like the modern fez. 2 a felt cloth.
          3 a felt cuirass.

          Matþaius


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • sunburst
          Hails Bertil! ... Interesting. Is the pilos reference from Jordanes Pilleatai, or is there another reference for such? I have seen a number of Gothic coins,
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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            Hails Bertil!

            >Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
            >know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
            >cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
            >Amalaswintha a tiara.


            Interesting. Is the pilos reference from Jordanes Pilleatai, or is there
            another reference for such? I have seen a number of Gothic coins, but none
            of the figures
            on them were wearing any type of felt hat (thanks Matthaiu!). Maybe Dirk
            would know if such a depiction exists?

            Albareiks
          • keth@online.no
            ... Could it be something like a Phrygian cap? I also have a picture of Amalaswinthas head, which is a bust made of smooth stone. She wears an ornament in her
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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              Matþaius wrote:

              >on 8/3/01 12:27 AM, Beril Haggman at mvk575b@... wrote:
              >
              >Athalaric and Amalaswintha
              >
              >Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
              >know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
              >cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
              >Amalaswintha a tiara.
              >
              >
              >Liddell and Scott say for Pilos from classical Greek sources:
              >
              >I wool or hair made into felt, used as a lining for helmets; for shoes. II
              >anything made of felt, a felt skullcap like the modern fez. 2 a felt cloth.
              >3 a felt cuirass.

              Could it be something like a Phrygian cap?

              I also have a picture of Amalaswinthas head, which is a bust
              made of smooth stone. She wears an ornament in her hair that
              looks like a chain and in the front there is something that looks
              like a little medallion with 3 little hangers attached too it.
              I also have a photo of a colden medallion that show Theoderic
              en face. "rex theodericv spivsprincis" the Latin text says.
              He wears Roman attire and holds up in his left hand somthing that
              looks like an apple, and on top of the apple is a little angel(?)
              holding what lookes like a plume and a diadem. The plume could
              be a quill for writing, and the diadem looks a bit like a Greek
              omega. Maybe these are the royal insignia that you were looking
              for? Apart from that there isn't much concrete symbolism, except
              for a kind of abstract art that seems to make a point of displaying
              not symbols, but rather ornaments. What I do see, however, is
              Theoderic's monogram on top of some capitels. (stone pillars)
              By ornamental I mean flowers and wavy bands and things like that.

              What you do find are the various bird forms, but they wouldn't
              be vultures, I don't think, because there are no such birds
              in Northern Europe, though there might be some in Iran (?)
              Then there are the many belt clasps and fibulae. But here
              to the decorative patterns are remarkably abstract. Definitely
              not symbolic in the sense of the later heraldic symbolism.
              Perhaps these were 12th century artists who represented
              Theoderic in the style of the artist's own century, which caused
              him to look like a 12th century knight with shield and lance?
              In that case heraldic symbols may have been added to the shield
              by the artist. But such symbols probably only represented
              the artist idea of what kind of "coat of arms" the legendary
              king might have used. I do see a star on one medallian from Spain,
              but from the context (Maria with Child) it is clear that it is
              the Star of Bethlehem. I do not recall seeing many stars in
              Germanic ornament/symbolism. Usually what you see, if you look
              closely, are sometimes serpents, one-headed and two-headed ones.
              Or other animals. Also many small concentric circles often
              stamped on combs and ornaments such as belt buckles. Does any
              one know what they might have signified? Crescents I have seen
              as ornament/symbols in some cases, but not often. Crescent with
              star sounds like the Turkish flag to me.

              Best regards
              Keth
            • Beril Haggman
              Keth, So the question is if Amalaswintha was of of Amal royal blood? Probably yes as Ermanaric was Theoderic s forefather. But Albareiks is looking for Amali
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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                Keth,

                So the question is if Amalaswintha was of
                of Amal royal blood? Probably yes as
                Ermanaric was Theoderic's forefather.
                But Albareiks is looking for Amali insignia
                from an earlier time, before, I guess, Bysantian
                influence was becoming notecable.

                Older insignia (without details) are mentioned
                in _Getica_ in connection for instance once
                with King Tiudimir.

                Gothically

                Bertil

                Maybe these are the royal insignia that you were looking
                for?
              • dirk@smra.co.uk
                Hi Keth and the others, there is a depiction of a noble Roman women (believed to be Amalasuentha, but not certain) wearing this Phrygian Cap. I can positively
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 6, 2001
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                  Hi Keth and the others,

                  there is a depiction of a noble Roman women (believed to be
                  Amalasuentha, but not certain) wearing this Phrygian Cap. I can
                  positively say that there are no coins of any Ostrogothic ruler
                  showing that type of head-gear. I remember that as a sign of royalty,
                  an Ostrogothic king wore his hair unparted, but I am not sure about
                  the exact source!

                  The depiction of Theoderic on the gold medallion shows him holding a
                  globe with the Roman goddess victory on top. Otherwise, his atire is
                  that of a noble Roman. There is no depiction of Amalasuentha on any
                  coin. Not even here name appears on a coin. There is also no portrait
                  of Athalaricus. Theodahat was the first and only Ostrogothic rule to
                  show his real, life-like portray on a coin. On these coins he is
                  wearing what some people called a Spangenhelm, others despribed it as
                  crown of Italy. He wears a large cross around his neck. Theodahatus is
                  depicted as a slightly fat man, with neck-long hair and a moustache.
                  The reverse is again the Roman Victory.

                  On coins of Baduila, the king is presented in frontal view. The
                  portrait is highly stylised, but a moustache is discernable on better
                  specimines. Baduila also wears the 'Spangenhelm' (i.e. crown of
                  Italy). None of the Ostrogothic coins show an Amal insignum of any
                  type. However, as I said earlier, the Theodric monogramme seemed to
                  have been used in that way on coins, artwork and documents.

                  cheers,
                  Dirk





                  --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                  > Matþaius wrote:
                  >
                  > >on 8/3/01 12:27 AM, Beril Haggman at mvk575b@t... wrote:
                  > >
                  > >Athalaric and Amalaswintha
                  > >
                  > >Seen reference that on coins they carried pilos (don't
                  > >know what pilos is?) as head ornament. Also a collar
                  > >cloak has been mentioned and in the case of
                  > >Amalaswintha a tiara.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >Liddell and Scott say for Pilos from classical Greek sources:
                  > >
                  > >I wool or hair made into felt, used as a lining for helmets; for
                  shoes. II
                  > >anything made of felt, a felt skullcap like the modern fez. 2 a
                  felt cloth.
                  > >3 a felt cuirass.
                  >
                  > Could it be something like a Phrygian cap?
                  >
                  > I also have a picture of Amalaswinthas head, which is a bust
                  > made of smooth stone. She wears an ornament in her hair that
                  > looks like a chain and in the front there is something that looks
                  > like a little medallion with 3 little hangers attached too it.
                  > I also have a photo of a colden medallion that show Theoderic
                  > en face. "rex theodericv spivsprincis" the Latin text says.
                  > He wears Roman attire and holds up in his left hand somthing that
                  > looks like an apple, and on top of the apple is a little angel(?)
                  > holding what lookes like a plume and a diadem. The plume could
                  > be a quill for writing, and the diadem looks a bit like a Greek
                  > omega. Maybe these are the royal insignia that you were looking
                  > for? Apart from that there isn't much concrete symbolism, except
                  > for a kind of abstract art that seems to make a point of displaying
                  > not symbols, but rather ornaments. What I do see, however, is
                  > Theoderic's monogram on top of some capitels. (stone pillars)
                  > By ornamental I mean flowers and wavy bands and things like that.
                  >
                  > What you do find are the various bird forms, but they wouldn't
                  > be vultures, I don't think, because there are no such birds
                  > in Northern Europe, though there might be some in Iran (?)
                  > Then there are the many belt clasps and fibulae. But here
                  > to the decorative patterns are remarkably abstract. Definitely
                  > not symbolic in the sense of the later heraldic symbolism.
                  > Perhaps these were 12th century artists who represented
                  > Theoderic in the style of the artist's own century, which caused
                  > him to look like a 12th century knight with shield and lance?
                  > In that case heraldic symbols may have been added to the shield
                  > by the artist. But such symbols probably only represented
                  > the artist idea of what kind of "coat of arms" the legendary
                  > king might have used. I do see a star on one medallian from Spain,
                  > but from the context (Maria with Child) it is clear that it is
                  > the Star of Bethlehem. I do not recall seeing many stars in
                  > Germanic ornament/symbolism. Usually what you see, if you look
                  > closely, are sometimes serpents, one-headed and two-headed ones.
                  > Or other animals. Also many small concentric circles often
                  > stamped on combs and ornaments such as belt buckles. Does any
                  > one know what they might have signified? Crescents I have seen
                  > as ornament/symbols in some cases, but not often. Crescent with
                  > star sounds like the Turkish flag to me.
                  >
                  > Best regards
                  > Keth
                • Francisc Czobor
                  ... I have read somewhere that the bird-shaped fibulae of Goths and Gepids, representing birds of prey, are due to Iranic influence. On the other hand, the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 7, 2001
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                    --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                    > ...
                    > What you do find are the various bird forms, but they wouldn't
                    > be vultures, I don't think, because there are no such birds
                    > in Northern Europe, though there might be some in Iran (?)

                    I have read somewhere that the bird-shaped fibulae of Goths and
                    Gepids, representing birds of prey, are due to Iranic influence.
                    On the other hand, the Goths knew the eagles, since there is a word
                    for these birds in Gothic: ara, having cognates in other Germanic
                    languages (OE earn, Eng. ern(e), MLG arn, Germ. dial. Aar, etc.)

                    Francisc
                  • dirk@smra.co.uk
                    ... Hi Francisc, eagles lived all over Europe in these days and they are still living in the Alps and other parts and they played an important role in the
                    Message 9 of 13 , Aug 7, 2001
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                      --- In gothic-l@y..., "Francisc Czobor" <czobor@c...> wrote:
                      > --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                      > > ...
                      > > What you do find are the various bird forms, but they wouldn't
                      > > be vultures, I don't think, because there are no such birds
                      > > in Northern Europe, though there might be some in Iran (?)
                      >
                      > I have read somewhere that the bird-shaped fibulae of Goths and
                      > Gepids, representing birds of prey, are due to Iranic influence.
                      > On the other hand, the Goths knew the eagles, since there is a word
                      > for these birds in Gothic: ara, having cognates in other Germanic
                      > languages (OE earn, Eng. ern(e), MLG arn, Germ. dial. Aar, etc.)
                      >
                      > Francisc

                      Hi Francisc,

                      eagles lived all over Europe in these days and they are still living
                      in the Alps and other parts and they played an important role in the
                      mythology of many peoples. For the Romans it was usually associated
                      with the dead and the eagle carried the soul of the dead away to
                      heaven. Ostrogothic 40-nummi coins show a sitting Eagle, spreading its
                      wings and turning its head backwards. This eagle is, most likely
                      aluding to Roman traditions rather than Gothic beliefs, as this would
                      be in keeping with the design on other Ostrogothic coins (Romulus and
                      Remus, Roma-head, Victory, etc.)

                      cheers,

                      Dirk
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