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Re: [gothic-l] Goths and Bavaria

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  • keth@online.no
    Cory, I found the Britannica of 1962, and looked under Bavaria . It says the year 520 stems from a Frankish document, of that date, which mentions the
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2 6:09 PM
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      Cory,
      I found the Britannica of 1962, and looked under "Bavaria".
      It says the year 520 stems from a Frankish document, of that
      date, which mentions the "Baivarii" as having settled in
      the Donau valley and adjacent areas by that time. It is
      only a brief note, but I interpret it as meaning that the date
      of the document is 520, and that hence they must have been
      known to have settled there sometime before that date.
      So maybe there wasn't a definite date, only a fact of presence.


      And you were right about the Brockhaus, since the one I looked
      in was from 1996, and the text there was a little different from
      your excerpt. Thanks!

      Keth

      P.S. The Britannica quotes G.T.Rudhardt and A.Quitzmann as references
      for the oldest history of Bavaria. Both wrote around 1840-1860.
      Maybe you can find something there.
    • Francisc Czobor
      hI kETH, ... Bajuwaren ... The Boii were a Celtic tribe who gave the name Bohemia (from Boio-haemus). Baju-wari means in fact dwellers of the
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 3 4:38 AM
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        hI kETH,

        --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
        > Hello Dirk!
        > ...
        Bajuwaren"
        > who are supposed to have come from Bohemia. (any connection with
        > the Boii?)

        The Boii were a Celtic tribe who gave the name "Bohemia" (from
        Boio-haemus). "Baju-wari" means in fact "dwellers of the Boii(-land)",
        because they lived in Bohemia before coming in Bavaria.

        > However when I looked under "Bairisch" (writen with "i", whereas
        Bayern
        > is written with "y" - any one know why?), the Brockhaus referred to
        > "deutsche mundarten" and under that topos I found an interesting map
        > of the Germanic dialects. And there I found something that surprised
        > me; for it became clear that linguists refer to the language spoken
        in
        > Tirol *also as bairisch ! ! ! Now why didn't that come up on the
        list
        > as we discussed this before? I even specifically mentioned Süd
        Tirol,
        > with Bozen and the Brenner. Now if all that is *also Bairisch
        (linguist-
        > ically speaking), then that changes things quite a bit. No wonder I
        > found I could understand Bairisch when I visited there some years
        ago,
        > after having spent many months in Tirol.
        >
        > You see, what I thought until now, was that Bairisch referred
        strictly to
        > the dialect spoken within the present borders of the Teilstaat
        Bayern.
        > But if the dialect spoken in Tirol (Innsbruck!) is also bairisch,
        > then that changes things quite a bit from my point of view.
        >
        > However, what the map *also says (o, erstaunen, erstaunen) is that
        > Vienna is *also in the "bairischen mundarten" area. Now, that is
        > beginning to sound a bit odd to me. For if there is something that
        > is certain, then it is that the "Wienersprache" has a very distinct
        > note to it, that distinguishes it from other Austrian dialects.
        > And especially "bairisch". More likely is perhaps the attribution
        > of Steiermärkisch to bairisch, but even that is a long distance
        > from Tirol, and clearly distinguishable, even to my ear. (or maybe
        > especially to my ear)
        >

        In all the classifications of the German dialects that I have seen,
        one division of the "Oberdeutsch" part of Hochdeutsch is
        Bairisch(-Österreichisch), where are included not only the dialects of
        Bavaria, but also those of Austria and the Alto Adige (= South Tirol)
        province of northern Italy.

        Francisc
      • Francisc Czobor
        ... Mediolanum is considered a Celtic toponym, meaning middle plain . medio- middle is Celtic, inherited from Indo-European, that s why it sound similar to
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 3 4:53 AM
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          --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
          >...
          > And besides, if it was the Kelts who founded it, then its
          > original name might not have been "Mediolanum", which sounds
          > Latin to me.

          Mediolanum is considered a Celtic toponym, meaning "middle plain".
          medio- "middle" is Celtic, inherited from Indo-European, that's why it
          sound similar to Lat. medius, Goth. midjis, Greek mezos, Sanskrit
          madhya etc.
          lan- "field, plain" appears in many Celtic topnyms.
          Only the ending -um indicates a latinization of the original Celtic
          place name.

          Francisc
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