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Re: Goths and Bavaria

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  • babeck@alphalink.com.au
    ... Hello Keth, I am not sure what you mean by this. Mailand is derived from Milano , not the reverse. And Milano is derived from the Latin
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
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      --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
      >...Any way, it is well know that "Milano"
      > is not really an Italian city, but an old German city that is called
      > "Mailand", and consulting the map shows that "Mailand" is in fact
      > the major city of Lombardia.

      Hello Keth,
      I am not sure what you mean by this. "Mailand" is derived
      from "Milano", not the reverse. And "Milano" is derived from the
      Latin "Mediolanum", which is probably of Celtic origin. Milan was
      originally a Celtic settlement dating from about the 5th century BC
      and was conquered by Rome in 222BC. It was capital of the Western
      Roman Empire from the 4th century AD. So I am not sure how it can be
      an old German city rather than an Italian city, in fact, it initially
      declined under the Germanic invasions. Perhaps I have misunderstood
      you.
      Cheers,
      Brian
    • LeonardoHern�ndez-Cortez
      ... Any way, it is well know that "Milano" is not really an Italian city, but an old German city that is called "Mailand", and
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
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        --- keth@... wrote:

        Any way, it is well know that "Milano"<BR>
        is not really an Italian city, but an old German city
        that is called<BR>
        "Mailand", and consulting the map shows that
        "Mailand" is in fact<BR>
        the major city of Lombardia. Tirol must earlier have
        extended rather<BR>
        far south. Perhaps as far as Verona? From the map I
        see that it is <BR>
        approx. 150 kilometers from Bozen to Verona. And so I
        think the <BR>
        discussion might be much clarified if one specifies
        where one<BR>
        envisions the old 5th century language borders, as
        well as what<BR>
        areas that were then conceived of as  Bayern and
        Lombardia.<BR>
        Raetia it also said. That was the old name of Baiern,
        before<BR>
        the Bavarians came.<BR>

        Re: I'm sorry but here I've got to correct you, Milano
        is in fact an old "celto-roman city", it was called
        Mediolanum and was founded by the romans on a place
        where there were/had been some celtic settlements.


        Yours Sincerely.
        Leonardo.


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      • keth@online.no
        Hello Leonardo! ... But you know the Germans call it Mailand . I thought perhaps this name went back to the Goths and the Lombards; especially because it is
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
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          Hello Leonardo!
          you wrote:
          >Re: I'm sorry but here I've got to correct you, Milano
          >is in fact an old "celto-roman city", it was called
          >Mediolanum and was founded by the romans on a place
          >where there were/had been some celtic settlements.


          But you know the Germans call it "Mailand".
          I thought perhaps this name went back to the Goths and
          the Lombards; especially because it is today (still?) the
          capital of Lommbardia.

          And besides, if it was the Kelts who founded it, then its
          original name might not have been "Mediolanum", which sounds
          Latin to me.

          It says that in 774 it came under Charlemagne and the Franks.
          And then later in the Middle Ages there was a strife there
          between the "Welps" (sp) and the "Ghibellins" and then
          also Frederic Barbarossa was involved there. But of course
          I do not know anything about the language. But I believe Tirol
          used to extend further south and that German or a variety of
          Bavarian may then have been spoken there.

          Best regards
          Keth
        • keth@online.no
          Cory, I found the Britannica of 1962, and looked under Bavaria . It says the year 520 stems from a Frankish document, of that date, which mentions the
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
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            Cory,
            I found the Britannica of 1962, and looked under "Bavaria".
            It says the year 520 stems from a Frankish document, of that
            date, which mentions the "Baivarii" as having settled in
            the Donau valley and adjacent areas by that time. It is
            only a brief note, but I interpret it as meaning that the date
            of the document is 520, and that hence they must have been
            known to have settled there sometime before that date.
            So maybe there wasn't a definite date, only a fact of presence.


            And you were right about the Brockhaus, since the one I looked
            in was from 1996, and the text there was a little different from
            your excerpt. Thanks!

            Keth

            P.S. The Britannica quotes G.T.Rudhardt and A.Quitzmann as references
            for the oldest history of Bavaria. Both wrote around 1840-1860.
            Maybe you can find something there.
          • Francisc Czobor
            hI kETH, ... Bajuwaren ... The Boii were a Celtic tribe who gave the name Bohemia (from Boio-haemus). Baju-wari means in fact dwellers of the
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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              hI kETH,

              --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
              > Hello Dirk!
              > ...
              Bajuwaren"
              > who are supposed to have come from Bohemia. (any connection with
              > the Boii?)

              The Boii were a Celtic tribe who gave the name "Bohemia" (from
              Boio-haemus). "Baju-wari" means in fact "dwellers of the Boii(-land)",
              because they lived in Bohemia before coming in Bavaria.

              > However when I looked under "Bairisch" (writen with "i", whereas
              Bayern
              > is written with "y" - any one know why?), the Brockhaus referred to
              > "deutsche mundarten" and under that topos I found an interesting map
              > of the Germanic dialects. And there I found something that surprised
              > me; for it became clear that linguists refer to the language spoken
              in
              > Tirol *also as bairisch ! ! ! Now why didn't that come up on the
              list
              > as we discussed this before? I even specifically mentioned Süd
              Tirol,
              > with Bozen and the Brenner. Now if all that is *also Bairisch
              (linguist-
              > ically speaking), then that changes things quite a bit. No wonder I
              > found I could understand Bairisch when I visited there some years
              ago,
              > after having spent many months in Tirol.
              >
              > You see, what I thought until now, was that Bairisch referred
              strictly to
              > the dialect spoken within the present borders of the Teilstaat
              Bayern.
              > But if the dialect spoken in Tirol (Innsbruck!) is also bairisch,
              > then that changes things quite a bit from my point of view.
              >
              > However, what the map *also says (o, erstaunen, erstaunen) is that
              > Vienna is *also in the "bairischen mundarten" area. Now, that is
              > beginning to sound a bit odd to me. For if there is something that
              > is certain, then it is that the "Wienersprache" has a very distinct
              > note to it, that distinguishes it from other Austrian dialects.
              > And especially "bairisch". More likely is perhaps the attribution
              > of Steiermärkisch to bairisch, but even that is a long distance
              > from Tirol, and clearly distinguishable, even to my ear. (or maybe
              > especially to my ear)
              >

              In all the classifications of the German dialects that I have seen,
              one division of the "Oberdeutsch" part of Hochdeutsch is
              Bairisch(-Österreichisch), where are included not only the dialects of
              Bavaria, but also those of Austria and the Alto Adige (= South Tirol)
              province of northern Italy.

              Francisc
            • Francisc Czobor
              ... Mediolanum is considered a Celtic toponym, meaning middle plain . medio- middle is Celtic, inherited from Indo-European, that s why it sound similar to
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
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                --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                >...
                > And besides, if it was the Kelts who founded it, then its
                > original name might not have been "Mediolanum", which sounds
                > Latin to me.

                Mediolanum is considered a Celtic toponym, meaning "middle plain".
                medio- "middle" is Celtic, inherited from Indo-European, that's why it
                sound similar to Lat. medius, Goth. midjis, Greek mezos, Sanskrit
                madhya etc.
                lan- "field, plain" appears in many Celtic topnyms.
                Only the ending -um indicates a latinization of the original Celtic
                place name.

                Francisc
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