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Re: Goths and Bavaria

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  • dirk@smra.co.uk
    Hi Cory and Keth I found this quote about Bavarian: Man unterscheidet innerhalb der bairische Sprache zwischen drei Dialektgruppen: Nordbairisch wird in der
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2 4:34 AM
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      Hi Cory and Keth

      I found this quote about Bavarian:

      Man unterscheidet innerhalb der bairische Sprache zwischen drei
      Dialektgruppen: Nordbairisch wird in der Oberpfalz und im Donauraum
      gesprochen, Mittelbairisch in Ober- und Niederbayern sowie im größten
      Teil von Österreich, Südbairisch in Tirol und südlich der Ostalpen.
      Dazu kommen einige Sprachinseln in Oberitalien, wo archaische
      bairische Dialekte noch heute in Gebrauch sind.

      Thus, there are also isolated areas in upper Italy were
      archaic variants of Bavarian are still spoken. The southern-most
      German language-area is the Zimbric/Cimbric language spoken only in
      one villages near Trient/Verona. Cimbric is also related to Bavarian.

      cheers,
      Dirk





      --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
      > --- In gothic-l@y..., cstrohmier@y... wrote:
      > > Hi Dirk,
      > > I agree: The connections between the Goths and the Bavarians
      > > are a fascinating topic. Thank you for clarifying how the
      > Langobards
      > > fit in: I had misunderstood what you meant. (I took you to mean
      > > that the connections of the Langobardic royal family with the
      > > Bavarian royal family pertained to the Italian Langobards, and
      that
      > > the proposed emigration followed the same pattern.) An imigration
      > of
      > > Langobards from Bohemia seems less problematic than one from
      Italy,
      > > especially if it was north of the Danube. (The "devastation"
      > > and "depopulation" of the region south of the Danube in A.D. 476
      by
      > > Odoacer and this troops would seem to make this theory problematic
      > > there.) This would certainly seem to be one more piece of a
      > > complicated puzzle. (I'm still pondering the significance of
      > > Scheuerer's interesting article.)
      > > I was unaware that the modern Bavarians connect the beginning
      > > of their state in an unbroken line back to Ostrogothic times; it
      > > seems reasonable, but I wonder how they arrive at the exact date
      of
      > > A.D. 520. Is there some specific historical event underlying this
      > > date? In my previous posting, I mentioned two sets of
      encyclopedia
      > > dates: A.D. 489-539 and A.D. 488-520. (I believe one of these
      two
      > > sets of dates came from the Encyclopedia Britannica.) The
      earliest
      > > arrival dates of A.D. 488 and 489 no doubt refer to the beginning
      of
      > > Theodoric's invasion of Italy (which he entered through the Alpine
      > > region), but I wonder what events the encyclopedia writers had in
      > > mind when they selected A.D. 520 and 539 as the latest possible
      > > arrival date. There must be some historical references to the
      > > Bavarians in these two years which I am unaware of. The date A.D.
      > > 520 is especially interesting, since it coincides with the
      > foundation
      > > date of the Bavarian state in the northern part of the Ostrogothic
      > > Kingdom. It would be interesting to know what these two dates
      refer
      > > to.
      > > Sincerely yours,
      > > Cory
      > >
      >
      >
      > Hi Cory,
      >
      > I seemed to remember the year 520AD from somewhere, but cannot
      really
      > say where I read this. Here are two short histories of the early
      > Bavarians:
      >
      > http://www.bayern.de/HDBG/pgkap01.htm
      >
      > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/6711/austria.html#The
      Bavarians
      >
      >
      > I don't know how reliable these texts are, but the second article,
      > stated that the first duke/king of the Bajuvari was Theodo I
      > (508-511AD, but said to have been born in 420AD!). Note the many
      > 'Langobardic' names in the Bavarian king-list (Garibald, Grimwald,
      > Agiulf) and the text also mentiones the Herulic Prince Fara (died
      > 535AD) as co-founder of the Bavarian ducal house. Fara, Farwald etc.
      > is also a common name of Langobardic dukes, especially at Spoleto.
      >
      > The text also states :"After the highest level of protection granted
      > to the Agilolfing dukes, the next highest was the double weregeld
      > granted to the five noble families of Huosi, Drozza, Fagana,
      > Hahilinga, and Anniona - probably the descendants of kings of
      seperate
      > lesser tribes incorporated within the Bavarian nation..."
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > P.S.
      > > I need to make two clarifications. In my last posting, I
      > > included a quote about the Ostrogoths "Teutonizing" the Austrian
      > > Tyrol. The word "Teutonizing" has several possible meanings:
      The
      > > author seems to have left the meaning deliberately ambiguous. I
      > take
      > > it to mean that the area was unpopulated, and that it
      > > became "Teutonized" through settlement of Ostrogoths in the area.
      >
      >
      >
      > I am not sure, but the Tyrol area was where the Celtic (barely
      > Romanised) Brennones lived. Maybe, it was these people in South
      Tyrol
      > (now Italy) who were 'teutonised'.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > In
      > > another previous posting, I mentioned that some pieces of Old and
      > > Middle High German literature which show a curious mixing of Old
      > > Saxon and Old and Middle High German influences may point to an
      > > explanation of the West and North Germanic features in Southern
      > > German; two more examples of this would be: "Das Hildebrandslied"
      > > (which also shows Langobardic influences) and the so-called "Low"
      > > German "Der Heliand". I believe there are also smaller fragments
      > > such as prayers which also reflect both Saxon and High German
      > > influences. No doubt there are more examples.
      >
      >
      > My understanding was that the Hildebrandslied was written down by an
      > Old Saxon speaker based on a Bavarian 'original'. I think it is
      > probable that the material goes back to Ostrogothic tales of the
      > 5th/6th century, was taken up by the Langobards in Italy (the name
      > ending -brand/prant was popular among the Bavarian dynasty of
      > Langobardic kings (Ansprant, Hildeprant, Luitprant) and then passed
      on
      > to the Bavarians.
      >
      > cheers,
      > Dirk
    • babeck@alphalink.com.au
      ... Hello Keth, I am not sure what you mean by this. Mailand is derived from Milano , not the reverse. And Milano is derived from the Latin
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 2 4:48 AM
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        --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
        >...Any way, it is well know that "Milano"
        > is not really an Italian city, but an old German city that is called
        > "Mailand", and consulting the map shows that "Mailand" is in fact
        > the major city of Lombardia.

        Hello Keth,
        I am not sure what you mean by this. "Mailand" is derived
        from "Milano", not the reverse. And "Milano" is derived from the
        Latin "Mediolanum", which is probably of Celtic origin. Milan was
        originally a Celtic settlement dating from about the 5th century BC
        and was conquered by Rome in 222BC. It was capital of the Western
        Roman Empire from the 4th century AD. So I am not sure how it can be
        an old German city rather than an Italian city, in fact, it initially
        declined under the Germanic invasions. Perhaps I have misunderstood
        you.
        Cheers,
        Brian
      • LeonardoHern�ndez-Cortez
        ... Any way, it is well know that "Milano" is not really an Italian city, but an old German city that is called "Mailand", and
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 2 4:58 AM
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          --- keth@... wrote:

          Any way, it is well know that "Milano"<BR>
          is not really an Italian city, but an old German city
          that is called<BR>
          "Mailand", and consulting the map shows that
          "Mailand" is in fact<BR>
          the major city of Lombardia. Tirol must earlier have
          extended rather<BR>
          far south. Perhaps as far as Verona? From the map I
          see that it is <BR>
          approx. 150 kilometers from Bozen to Verona. And so I
          think the <BR>
          discussion might be much clarified if one specifies
          where one<BR>
          envisions the old 5th century language borders, as
          well as what<BR>
          areas that were then conceived of as  Bayern and
          Lombardia.<BR>
          Raetia it also said. That was the old name of Baiern,
          before<BR>
          the Bavarians came.<BR>

          Re: I'm sorry but here I've got to correct you, Milano
          is in fact an old "celto-roman city", it was called
          Mediolanum and was founded by the romans on a place
          where there were/had been some celtic settlements.


          Yours Sincerely.
          Leonardo.


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        • keth@online.no
          Hello Leonardo! ... But you know the Germans call it Mailand . I thought perhaps this name went back to the Goths and the Lombards; especially because it is
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 2 5:57 PM
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            Hello Leonardo!
            you wrote:
            >Re: I'm sorry but here I've got to correct you, Milano
            >is in fact an old "celto-roman city", it was called
            >Mediolanum and was founded by the romans on a place
            >where there were/had been some celtic settlements.


            But you know the Germans call it "Mailand".
            I thought perhaps this name went back to the Goths and
            the Lombards; especially because it is today (still?) the
            capital of Lommbardia.

            And besides, if it was the Kelts who founded it, then its
            original name might not have been "Mediolanum", which sounds
            Latin to me.

            It says that in 774 it came under Charlemagne and the Franks.
            And then later in the Middle Ages there was a strife there
            between the "Welps" (sp) and the "Ghibellins" and then
            also Frederic Barbarossa was involved there. But of course
            I do not know anything about the language. But I believe Tirol
            used to extend further south and that German or a variety of
            Bavarian may then have been spoken there.

            Best regards
            Keth
          • keth@online.no
            Cory, I found the Britannica of 1962, and looked under Bavaria . It says the year 520 stems from a Frankish document, of that date, which mentions the
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 2 6:09 PM
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              Cory,
              I found the Britannica of 1962, and looked under "Bavaria".
              It says the year 520 stems from a Frankish document, of that
              date, which mentions the "Baivarii" as having settled in
              the Donau valley and adjacent areas by that time. It is
              only a brief note, but I interpret it as meaning that the date
              of the document is 520, and that hence they must have been
              known to have settled there sometime before that date.
              So maybe there wasn't a definite date, only a fact of presence.


              And you were right about the Brockhaus, since the one I looked
              in was from 1996, and the text there was a little different from
              your excerpt. Thanks!

              Keth

              P.S. The Britannica quotes G.T.Rudhardt and A.Quitzmann as references
              for the oldest history of Bavaria. Both wrote around 1840-1860.
              Maybe you can find something there.
            • Francisc Czobor
              hI kETH, ... Bajuwaren ... The Boii were a Celtic tribe who gave the name Bohemia (from Boio-haemus). Baju-wari means in fact dwellers of the
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 3 4:38 AM
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                hI kETH,

                --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                > Hello Dirk!
                > ...
                Bajuwaren"
                > who are supposed to have come from Bohemia. (any connection with
                > the Boii?)

                The Boii were a Celtic tribe who gave the name "Bohemia" (from
                Boio-haemus). "Baju-wari" means in fact "dwellers of the Boii(-land)",
                because they lived in Bohemia before coming in Bavaria.

                > However when I looked under "Bairisch" (writen with "i", whereas
                Bayern
                > is written with "y" - any one know why?), the Brockhaus referred to
                > "deutsche mundarten" and under that topos I found an interesting map
                > of the Germanic dialects. And there I found something that surprised
                > me; for it became clear that linguists refer to the language spoken
                in
                > Tirol *also as bairisch ! ! ! Now why didn't that come up on the
                list
                > as we discussed this before? I even specifically mentioned Süd
                Tirol,
                > with Bozen and the Brenner. Now if all that is *also Bairisch
                (linguist-
                > ically speaking), then that changes things quite a bit. No wonder I
                > found I could understand Bairisch when I visited there some years
                ago,
                > after having spent many months in Tirol.
                >
                > You see, what I thought until now, was that Bairisch referred
                strictly to
                > the dialect spoken within the present borders of the Teilstaat
                Bayern.
                > But if the dialect spoken in Tirol (Innsbruck!) is also bairisch,
                > then that changes things quite a bit from my point of view.
                >
                > However, what the map *also says (o, erstaunen, erstaunen) is that
                > Vienna is *also in the "bairischen mundarten" area. Now, that is
                > beginning to sound a bit odd to me. For if there is something that
                > is certain, then it is that the "Wienersprache" has a very distinct
                > note to it, that distinguishes it from other Austrian dialects.
                > And especially "bairisch". More likely is perhaps the attribution
                > of Steiermärkisch to bairisch, but even that is a long distance
                > from Tirol, and clearly distinguishable, even to my ear. (or maybe
                > especially to my ear)
                >

                In all the classifications of the German dialects that I have seen,
                one division of the "Oberdeutsch" part of Hochdeutsch is
                Bairisch(-Österreichisch), where are included not only the dialects of
                Bavaria, but also those of Austria and the Alto Adige (= South Tirol)
                province of northern Italy.

                Francisc
              • Francisc Czobor
                ... Mediolanum is considered a Celtic toponym, meaning middle plain . medio- middle is Celtic, inherited from Indo-European, that s why it sound similar to
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 3 4:53 AM
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                  --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                  >...
                  > And besides, if it was the Kelts who founded it, then its
                  > original name might not have been "Mediolanum", which sounds
                  > Latin to me.

                  Mediolanum is considered a Celtic toponym, meaning "middle plain".
                  medio- "middle" is Celtic, inherited from Indo-European, that's why it
                  sound similar to Lat. medius, Goth. midjis, Greek mezos, Sanskrit
                  madhya etc.
                  lan- "field, plain" appears in many Celtic topnyms.
                  Only the ending -um indicates a latinization of the original Celtic
                  place name.

                  Francisc
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