Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Goths and Bavaria

Expand Messages
  • dirk@smra.co.uk
    ... Langobards ... of ... foundation ... Hi Cory, I seemed to remember the year 520AD from somewhere, but cannot really say where I read this. Here are two
    Message 1 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In gothic-l@y..., cstrohmier@y... wrote:
      > Hi Dirk,
      > I agree: The connections between the Goths and the Bavarians
      > are a fascinating topic. Thank you for clarifying how the
      Langobards
      > fit in: I had misunderstood what you meant. (I took you to mean
      > that the connections of the Langobardic royal family with the
      > Bavarian royal family pertained to the Italian Langobards, and that
      > the proposed emigration followed the same pattern.) An imigration
      of
      > Langobards from Bohemia seems less problematic than one from Italy,
      > especially if it was north of the Danube. (The "devastation"
      > and "depopulation" of the region south of the Danube in A.D. 476 by
      > Odoacer and this troops would seem to make this theory problematic
      > there.) This would certainly seem to be one more piece of a
      > complicated puzzle. (I'm still pondering the significance of
      > Scheuerer's interesting article.)
      > I was unaware that the modern Bavarians connect the beginning
      > of their state in an unbroken line back to Ostrogothic times; it
      > seems reasonable, but I wonder how they arrive at the exact date of
      > A.D. 520. Is there some specific historical event underlying this
      > date? In my previous posting, I mentioned two sets of encyclopedia
      > dates: A.D. 489-539 and A.D. 488-520. (I believe one of these two
      > sets of dates came from the Encyclopedia Britannica.) The earliest
      > arrival dates of A.D. 488 and 489 no doubt refer to the beginning of
      > Theodoric's invasion of Italy (which he entered through the Alpine
      > region), but I wonder what events the encyclopedia writers had in
      > mind when they selected A.D. 520 and 539 as the latest possible
      > arrival date. There must be some historical references to the
      > Bavarians in these two years which I am unaware of. The date A.D.
      > 520 is especially interesting, since it coincides with the
      foundation
      > date of the Bavarian state in the northern part of the Ostrogothic
      > Kingdom. It would be interesting to know what these two dates refer
      > to.
      > Sincerely yours,
      > Cory
      >


      Hi Cory,

      I seemed to remember the year 520AD from somewhere, but cannot really
      say where I read this. Here are two short histories of the early
      Bavarians:

      http://www.bayern.de/HDBG/pgkap01.htm

      http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/6711/austria.html#The Bavarians


      I don't know how reliable these texts are, but the second article,
      stated that the first duke/king of the Bajuvari was Theodo I
      (508-511AD, but said to have been born in 420AD!). Note the many
      'Langobardic' names in the Bavarian king-list (Garibald, Grimwald,
      Agiulf) and the text also mentiones the Herulic Prince Fara (died
      535AD) as co-founder of the Bavarian ducal house. Fara, Farwald etc.
      is also a common name of Langobardic dukes, especially at Spoleto.

      The text also states :"After the highest level of protection granted
      to the Agilolfing dukes, the next highest was the double weregeld
      granted to the five noble families of Huosi, Drozza, Fagana,
      Hahilinga, and Anniona - probably the descendants of kings of seperate
      lesser tribes incorporated within the Bavarian nation..."






      > P.S.
      > I need to make two clarifications. In my last posting, I
      > included a quote about the Ostrogoths "Teutonizing" the Austrian
      > Tyrol. The word "Teutonizing" has several possible meanings: The
      > author seems to have left the meaning deliberately ambiguous. I
      take
      > it to mean that the area was unpopulated, and that it
      > became "Teutonized" through settlement of Ostrogoths in the area.



      I am not sure, but the Tyrol area was where the Celtic (barely
      Romanised) Brennones lived. Maybe, it was these people in South Tyrol
      (now Italy) who were 'teutonised'.




      In
      > another previous posting, I mentioned that some pieces of Old and
      > Middle High German literature which show a curious mixing of Old
      > Saxon and Old and Middle High German influences may point to an
      > explanation of the West and North Germanic features in Southern
      > German; two more examples of this would be: "Das Hildebrandslied"
      > (which also shows Langobardic influences) and the so-called "Low"
      > German "Der Heliand". I believe there are also smaller fragments
      > such as prayers which also reflect both Saxon and High German
      > influences. No doubt there are more examples.


      My understanding was that the Hildebrandslied was written down by an
      Old Saxon speaker based on a Bavarian 'original'. I think it is
      probable that the material goes back to Ostrogothic tales of the
      5th/6th century, was taken up by the Langobards in Italy (the name
      ending -brand/prant was popular among the Bavarian dynasty of
      Langobardic kings (Ansprant, Hildeprant, Luitprant) and then passed on
      to the Bavarians.

      cheers,
      Dirk
    • dirk@smra.co.uk
      Hi Cory and Keth I found this quote about Bavarian: Man unterscheidet innerhalb der bairische Sprache zwischen drei Dialektgruppen: Nordbairisch wird in der
      Message 2 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Cory and Keth

        I found this quote about Bavarian:

        Man unterscheidet innerhalb der bairische Sprache zwischen drei
        Dialektgruppen: Nordbairisch wird in der Oberpfalz und im Donauraum
        gesprochen, Mittelbairisch in Ober- und Niederbayern sowie im größten
        Teil von Österreich, Südbairisch in Tirol und südlich der Ostalpen.
        Dazu kommen einige Sprachinseln in Oberitalien, wo archaische
        bairische Dialekte noch heute in Gebrauch sind.

        Thus, there are also isolated areas in upper Italy were
        archaic variants of Bavarian are still spoken. The southern-most
        German language-area is the Zimbric/Cimbric language spoken only in
        one villages near Trient/Verona. Cimbric is also related to Bavarian.

        cheers,
        Dirk





        --- In gothic-l@y..., dirk@s... wrote:
        > --- In gothic-l@y..., cstrohmier@y... wrote:
        > > Hi Dirk,
        > > I agree: The connections between the Goths and the Bavarians
        > > are a fascinating topic. Thank you for clarifying how the
        > Langobards
        > > fit in: I had misunderstood what you meant. (I took you to mean
        > > that the connections of the Langobardic royal family with the
        > > Bavarian royal family pertained to the Italian Langobards, and
        that
        > > the proposed emigration followed the same pattern.) An imigration
        > of
        > > Langobards from Bohemia seems less problematic than one from
        Italy,
        > > especially if it was north of the Danube. (The "devastation"
        > > and "depopulation" of the region south of the Danube in A.D. 476
        by
        > > Odoacer and this troops would seem to make this theory problematic
        > > there.) This would certainly seem to be one more piece of a
        > > complicated puzzle. (I'm still pondering the significance of
        > > Scheuerer's interesting article.)
        > > I was unaware that the modern Bavarians connect the beginning
        > > of their state in an unbroken line back to Ostrogothic times; it
        > > seems reasonable, but I wonder how they arrive at the exact date
        of
        > > A.D. 520. Is there some specific historical event underlying this
        > > date? In my previous posting, I mentioned two sets of
        encyclopedia
        > > dates: A.D. 489-539 and A.D. 488-520. (I believe one of these
        two
        > > sets of dates came from the Encyclopedia Britannica.) The
        earliest
        > > arrival dates of A.D. 488 and 489 no doubt refer to the beginning
        of
        > > Theodoric's invasion of Italy (which he entered through the Alpine
        > > region), but I wonder what events the encyclopedia writers had in
        > > mind when they selected A.D. 520 and 539 as the latest possible
        > > arrival date. There must be some historical references to the
        > > Bavarians in these two years which I am unaware of. The date A.D.
        > > 520 is especially interesting, since it coincides with the
        > foundation
        > > date of the Bavarian state in the northern part of the Ostrogothic
        > > Kingdom. It would be interesting to know what these two dates
        refer
        > > to.
        > > Sincerely yours,
        > > Cory
        > >
        >
        >
        > Hi Cory,
        >
        > I seemed to remember the year 520AD from somewhere, but cannot
        really
        > say where I read this. Here are two short histories of the early
        > Bavarians:
        >
        > http://www.bayern.de/HDBG/pgkap01.htm
        >
        > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Rhodes/6711/austria.html#The
        Bavarians
        >
        >
        > I don't know how reliable these texts are, but the second article,
        > stated that the first duke/king of the Bajuvari was Theodo I
        > (508-511AD, but said to have been born in 420AD!). Note the many
        > 'Langobardic' names in the Bavarian king-list (Garibald, Grimwald,
        > Agiulf) and the text also mentiones the Herulic Prince Fara (died
        > 535AD) as co-founder of the Bavarian ducal house. Fara, Farwald etc.
        > is also a common name of Langobardic dukes, especially at Spoleto.
        >
        > The text also states :"After the highest level of protection granted
        > to the Agilolfing dukes, the next highest was the double weregeld
        > granted to the five noble families of Huosi, Drozza, Fagana,
        > Hahilinga, and Anniona - probably the descendants of kings of
        seperate
        > lesser tribes incorporated within the Bavarian nation..."
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > P.S.
        > > I need to make two clarifications. In my last posting, I
        > > included a quote about the Ostrogoths "Teutonizing" the Austrian
        > > Tyrol. The word "Teutonizing" has several possible meanings:
        The
        > > author seems to have left the meaning deliberately ambiguous. I
        > take
        > > it to mean that the area was unpopulated, and that it
        > > became "Teutonized" through settlement of Ostrogoths in the area.
        >
        >
        >
        > I am not sure, but the Tyrol area was where the Celtic (barely
        > Romanised) Brennones lived. Maybe, it was these people in South
        Tyrol
        > (now Italy) who were 'teutonised'.
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > In
        > > another previous posting, I mentioned that some pieces of Old and
        > > Middle High German literature which show a curious mixing of Old
        > > Saxon and Old and Middle High German influences may point to an
        > > explanation of the West and North Germanic features in Southern
        > > German; two more examples of this would be: "Das Hildebrandslied"
        > > (which also shows Langobardic influences) and the so-called "Low"
        > > German "Der Heliand". I believe there are also smaller fragments
        > > such as prayers which also reflect both Saxon and High German
        > > influences. No doubt there are more examples.
        >
        >
        > My understanding was that the Hildebrandslied was written down by an
        > Old Saxon speaker based on a Bavarian 'original'. I think it is
        > probable that the material goes back to Ostrogothic tales of the
        > 5th/6th century, was taken up by the Langobards in Italy (the name
        > ending -brand/prant was popular among the Bavarian dynasty of
        > Langobardic kings (Ansprant, Hildeprant, Luitprant) and then passed
        on
        > to the Bavarians.
        >
        > cheers,
        > Dirk
      • babeck@alphalink.com.au
        ... Hello Keth, I am not sure what you mean by this. Mailand is derived from Milano , not the reverse. And Milano is derived from the Latin
        Message 3 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
          >...Any way, it is well know that "Milano"
          > is not really an Italian city, but an old German city that is called
          > "Mailand", and consulting the map shows that "Mailand" is in fact
          > the major city of Lombardia.

          Hello Keth,
          I am not sure what you mean by this. "Mailand" is derived
          from "Milano", not the reverse. And "Milano" is derived from the
          Latin "Mediolanum", which is probably of Celtic origin. Milan was
          originally a Celtic settlement dating from about the 5th century BC
          and was conquered by Rome in 222BC. It was capital of the Western
          Roman Empire from the 4th century AD. So I am not sure how it can be
          an old German city rather than an Italian city, in fact, it initially
          declined under the Germanic invasions. Perhaps I have misunderstood
          you.
          Cheers,
          Brian
        • LeonardoHern�ndez-Cortez
          ... Any way, it is well know that "Milano" is not really an Italian city, but an old German city that is called "Mailand", and
          Message 4 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
          • 0 Attachment
            --- keth@... wrote:

            Any way, it is well know that "Milano"<BR>
            is not really an Italian city, but an old German city
            that is called<BR>
            "Mailand", and consulting the map shows that
            "Mailand" is in fact<BR>
            the major city of Lombardia. Tirol must earlier have
            extended rather<BR>
            far south. Perhaps as far as Verona? From the map I
            see that it is <BR>
            approx. 150 kilometers from Bozen to Verona. And so I
            think the <BR>
            discussion might be much clarified if one specifies
            where one<BR>
            envisions the old 5th century language borders, as
            well as what<BR>
            areas that were then conceived of as  Bayern and
            Lombardia.<BR>
            Raetia it also said. That was the old name of Baiern,
            before<BR>
            the Bavarians came.<BR>

            Re: I'm sorry but here I've got to correct you, Milano
            is in fact an old "celto-roman city", it was called
            Mediolanum and was founded by the romans on a place
            where there were/had been some celtic settlements.


            Yours Sincerely.
            Leonardo.


            __________________________________________________
            Do You Yahoo!?
            Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger
            http://phonecard.yahoo.com/
          • keth@online.no
            Hello Leonardo! ... But you know the Germans call it Mailand . I thought perhaps this name went back to the Goths and the Lombards; especially because it is
            Message 5 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
            • 0 Attachment
              Hello Leonardo!
              you wrote:
              >Re: I'm sorry but here I've got to correct you, Milano
              >is in fact an old "celto-roman city", it was called
              >Mediolanum and was founded by the romans on a place
              >where there were/had been some celtic settlements.


              But you know the Germans call it "Mailand".
              I thought perhaps this name went back to the Goths and
              the Lombards; especially because it is today (still?) the
              capital of Lommbardia.

              And besides, if it was the Kelts who founded it, then its
              original name might not have been "Mediolanum", which sounds
              Latin to me.

              It says that in 774 it came under Charlemagne and the Franks.
              And then later in the Middle Ages there was a strife there
              between the "Welps" (sp) and the "Ghibellins" and then
              also Frederic Barbarossa was involved there. But of course
              I do not know anything about the language. But I believe Tirol
              used to extend further south and that German or a variety of
              Bavarian may then have been spoken there.

              Best regards
              Keth
            • keth@online.no
              Cory, I found the Britannica of 1962, and looked under Bavaria . It says the year 520 stems from a Frankish document, of that date, which mentions the
              Message 6 of 13 , Aug 2, 2001
              • 0 Attachment
                Cory,
                I found the Britannica of 1962, and looked under "Bavaria".
                It says the year 520 stems from a Frankish document, of that
                date, which mentions the "Baivarii" as having settled in
                the Donau valley and adjacent areas by that time. It is
                only a brief note, but I interpret it as meaning that the date
                of the document is 520, and that hence they must have been
                known to have settled there sometime before that date.
                So maybe there wasn't a definite date, only a fact of presence.


                And you were right about the Brockhaus, since the one I looked
                in was from 1996, and the text there was a little different from
                your excerpt. Thanks!

                Keth

                P.S. The Britannica quotes G.T.Rudhardt and A.Quitzmann as references
                for the oldest history of Bavaria. Both wrote around 1840-1860.
                Maybe you can find something there.
              • Francisc Czobor
                hI kETH, ... Bajuwaren ... The Boii were a Celtic tribe who gave the name Bohemia (from Boio-haemus). Baju-wari means in fact dwellers of the
                Message 7 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
                • 0 Attachment
                  hI kETH,

                  --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                  > Hello Dirk!
                  > ...
                  Bajuwaren"
                  > who are supposed to have come from Bohemia. (any connection with
                  > the Boii?)

                  The Boii were a Celtic tribe who gave the name "Bohemia" (from
                  Boio-haemus). "Baju-wari" means in fact "dwellers of the Boii(-land)",
                  because they lived in Bohemia before coming in Bavaria.

                  > However when I looked under "Bairisch" (writen with "i", whereas
                  Bayern
                  > is written with "y" - any one know why?), the Brockhaus referred to
                  > "deutsche mundarten" and under that topos I found an interesting map
                  > of the Germanic dialects. And there I found something that surprised
                  > me; for it became clear that linguists refer to the language spoken
                  in
                  > Tirol *also as bairisch ! ! ! Now why didn't that come up on the
                  list
                  > as we discussed this before? I even specifically mentioned Süd
                  Tirol,
                  > with Bozen and the Brenner. Now if all that is *also Bairisch
                  (linguist-
                  > ically speaking), then that changes things quite a bit. No wonder I
                  > found I could understand Bairisch when I visited there some years
                  ago,
                  > after having spent many months in Tirol.
                  >
                  > You see, what I thought until now, was that Bairisch referred
                  strictly to
                  > the dialect spoken within the present borders of the Teilstaat
                  Bayern.
                  > But if the dialect spoken in Tirol (Innsbruck!) is also bairisch,
                  > then that changes things quite a bit from my point of view.
                  >
                  > However, what the map *also says (o, erstaunen, erstaunen) is that
                  > Vienna is *also in the "bairischen mundarten" area. Now, that is
                  > beginning to sound a bit odd to me. For if there is something that
                  > is certain, then it is that the "Wienersprache" has a very distinct
                  > note to it, that distinguishes it from other Austrian dialects.
                  > And especially "bairisch". More likely is perhaps the attribution
                  > of Steiermärkisch to bairisch, but even that is a long distance
                  > from Tirol, and clearly distinguishable, even to my ear. (or maybe
                  > especially to my ear)
                  >

                  In all the classifications of the German dialects that I have seen,
                  one division of the "Oberdeutsch" part of Hochdeutsch is
                  Bairisch(-Österreichisch), where are included not only the dialects of
                  Bavaria, but also those of Austria and the Alto Adige (= South Tirol)
                  province of northern Italy.

                  Francisc
                • Francisc Czobor
                  ... Mediolanum is considered a Celtic toponym, meaning middle plain . medio- middle is Celtic, inherited from Indo-European, that s why it sound similar to
                  Message 8 of 13 , Aug 3, 2001
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In gothic-l@y..., keth@o... wrote:
                    >...
                    > And besides, if it was the Kelts who founded it, then its
                    > original name might not have been "Mediolanum", which sounds
                    > Latin to me.

                    Mediolanum is considered a Celtic toponym, meaning "middle plain".
                    medio- "middle" is Celtic, inherited from Indo-European, that's why it
                    sound similar to Lat. medius, Goth. midjis, Greek mezos, Sanskrit
                    madhya etc.
                    lan- "field, plain" appears in many Celtic topnyms.
                    Only the ending -um indicates a latinization of the original Celtic
                    place name.

                    Francisc
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.