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Re: Pietroasa (correction)

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  • czobor@cantacuzino.ro
    Hails! In my previous message I wrote from memory and later, checking what I have posted, I found some inaccuracies. It s about the finding from Chiojd. In
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 1, 2001
      Hails!

      In my previous message I wrote from memory and later, checking what I
      have posted, I found some inaccuracies.
      It's about the finding from Chiojd. In fact, the exact name of the
      village is Chiojdu, and it lies not in the Prahova county, but in the
      Buzau county, the same county where also Pietroasa is located.
      Moreover, Chiojdu is at the foot of the Siriu mountain, where the
      "Caucaland" or "Highland" of the Visigoths was presumably located.
      My confusion came from the fact that villages with related names
      (Chiojd, Starchiojd, Chiojdeanca) are in the neighboring Prahova
      county.
      Second, at Chiojdu was found not a treasure, but a tomb with a rich
      funeral inventory, which is attributed to an Ostrogothic princess of
      the 5th century.
      Sorry for my confusion.

      Francisc

      <> GUTANI WIHAILAG <>
    • Andrei Stirbu
      ... You may know that a Dacic tribe was named Caucocensii, placed on the map of Ptolemeus in the area close to exterior of the Carpathian curbure:
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 19, 2006
        > The treasure is currently attributed to the Visigothic leader
        > Athanaric, that, according to Ammianus Marcelinus, organised a
        > resistance against the invadig Huns in a place named by the Goths
        > "CAUCALAND" (i.e. Hauha-land = "Highland") in the mountains called in
        > Latin "Montes Serorum". This place was identified with the curvature
        > zone of the Carpatian Mountais, namely with the Siriu mountains
        > (indentifyable with the "Montes Serorum"), that are not far from
        > Pietroasa, in the same county of Buzau. It is presumed that Athanaric

        You may know that a Dacic tribe was named Caucocensii, placed on the map of Ptolemeus in the area close to exterior of the Carpathian curbure:
        http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Francisc Czobor
        Of course I knew about this Dacian tribe (I remember its name as Caucoenses ), but on the map that I have seen (from the Romanian Historic Atlas ) they where
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 25, 2006
          Of course I knew about this Dacian tribe (I remember its name
          as "Caucoenses"), but on the map that I have seen (from the "Romanian
          Historic Atlas") they where located further north than the curvature
          of the Carpathians.
          But I think that it is merely a coincidence. The interpretation of
          Caucaland as Hauha-land "highland" is more plausible in my opinion
          than a Dacian-Gothic hybrid (and is also plausible for the old
          Gothic "H", pronounced rather as a velar fricative, to be rendered
          as "C" by the Romans).

          Francisc

          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Andrei Stirbu <andrei_stirbu@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > > The treasure is currently attributed to the Visigothic leader
          > > Athanaric, that, according to Ammianus Marcelinus, organised a
          > > resistance against the invadig Huns in a place named by the Goths
          > > "CAUCALAND" (i.e. Hauha-land = "Highland") in the mountains
          called in
          > > Latin "Montes Serorum". This place was identified with the
          curvature
          > > zone of the Carpatian Mountais, namely with the Siriu mountains
          > > (indentifyable with the "Montes Serorum"), that are not far from
          > > Pietroasa, in the same county of Buzau. It is presumed that
          Athanaric
          >
          > You may know that a Dacic tribe was named Caucocensii, placed on
          the map of Ptolemeus in the area close to exterior of the Carpathian
          curbure:
          > http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Andrei Stirbu
          The placement of Caucocensii on contemporary historical maps is aproximative. I see no reason for Goths to name the region highland as long the region of
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 25, 2006
            The placement of Caucocensii on contemporary historical maps is aproximative. I see no reason for Goths to name the region highland as long the region of Pietroasa is at the limit of the plain and small hills, rather in the plain:


            http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=p.a6e.jpg



            http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Buzau_map.700.jpg




            So, in my opinion, is very plausible that Goths used the Dacian name of the Cauca region.


            Andrei





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Francisc Czobor
            Caucaland was not in the plain at Pietroasa, but in the Montes Serorum: there took place the battle with the Huns. At Pietroasa probably the Visigoths hid
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 25, 2006
              Caucaland was not in the plain at Pietroasa, but in the Montes
              Serorum: there took place the battle with the Huns. At Pietroasa
              probably the Visigoths hid their treasure before hastily retreating
              to Caucaland.

              --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Andrei Stirbu <andrei_stirbu@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > The placement of Caucocensii on contemporary historical maps is
              aproximative. I see no reason for Goths to name the region highland
              as long the region of Pietroasa is at the limit of the plain and
              small hills, rather in the plain:
              >
              >
              > http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=p.a6e.jpg
              >
              >
              >
              > http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=Buzau_map.700.jpg
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > So, in my opinion, is very plausible that Goths used the Dacian
              name of the Cauca region.
              >
              >
              > Andrei
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • andrei_stirbu
              Maybe you have right but I think the possibility that Caucaland to derive from Caucocensii is not to be forget. Due to the fact my father is barrage engineer
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 25, 2006
                Maybe you have right but I think the possibility that Caucaland to
                derive from Caucocensii is not to be forget.


                Due to the fact my father is barrage engineer and he worked for 6
                years at the Siriu barrage, I made up several hollydays at Siriu, in
                1986-1989. If I would to baptize this region I would not chose the
                high land name, ratherly something to show the axial orientation on
                the Buzau valley of the mountainous character. I think the expression
                high land would ratherly be associated with some hill or high plateau
                region.
              • ualarauans
                Hailai jut Fragkisk jah Andraiu!! Could it happen that we face here another example of what I heard is called automatic conversion (Uriel Weinreich s term),
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 26, 2006
                  Hailai jut Fragkisk jah Andraiu!!

                  Could it happen that we face here another example of what I heard is
                  called "automatic conversion" (Uriel Weinreich's term), similar to
                  what is supposed to be the case with the name of the city of
                  Nouiodunum (prob., = today's Isakca, the right bank of the Danube),
                  mentioned by Jordanes in Get. 35 as [a ciuitate] nouietunense.
                  Nouiodunum, being a very widespread name, Celtic in origin (Gaulish
                  *Novio-du:non "new town" > French Nevers (dep. Nievre), Nouan-le-
                  Fuzelier (dep. Loir-et-Cher), and there were many more), so this
                  another Celtic *Novio-dunon could be recognized by the Goths as
                  consisting of the words which were Gothic niuja- "new" and *tu:n N. -
                  a "fence" or "fenced place", the latter being a Celtic loanword into
                  Common Germanic (*du:non > *tu:nan with a consonant shift d > t).
                  The original form in (pre-?)Jordanes could be *ciuitas neuiotunense
                  (cf. Neuiodunum in Upper Pannonia), later "hypercorrected", which
                  could have sprung from probable Gothic *Niujatun (< Ne/ouiodunum) as
                  the actual name of the city in the Gothic language (kept in a
                  legend, maybe).

                  Now, the Goths of Athanareiks come to Transdanuvia (soon to become
                  Gutthiuda of the Calender) and meet Cauco(c)ensii. This Dacian (?)
                  name might contain the same IE root *kouko- "high", "mountain" as
                  does Go. hauhs (has the ethnonym's etymology been clarified by
                  specialists in some way?). It could mean "mountaineers" maybe. And
                  the Goths feel it (or are said about it) and call them *Hauha-
                  warjos "those living in high places", for example, and the country
                  they call Hauhaland, the names being both phonetic and semantic
                  imitations of the native name. Maybe there had been a stage of Go.
                  *Kaukaland? What do you think?

                  Ualarauans

                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Caucaland was not in the plain at Pietroasa, but in the Montes
                  > Serorum: there took place the battle with the Huns. At Pietroasa
                  > probably the Visigoths hid their treasure before hastily
                  retreating
                  > to Caucaland.
                  >
                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Andrei Stirbu <andrei_stirbu@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The placement of Caucocensii on contemporary historical maps is
                  > aproximative. I see no reason for Goths to name the region
                  highland
                  > as long the region of Pietroasa is at the limit of the plain and
                  > small hills, rather in the plain:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=p.a6e.jpg
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?
                  img=Buzau_map.700.jpg
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > So, in my opinion, is very plausible that Goths used the Dacian
                  > name of the Cauca region.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Andrei
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • andrei_stirbu
                  I think is possible. Another example of toponimic gothization is Dinogetia from Roman time, which is mentionedas Denegothia, neighbour with Noviodunum.
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 26, 2006
                    I think is possible.

                    Another example of toponimic gothization is Dinogetia from Roman time,
                    which is mentionedas Denegothia, neighbour with Noviodunum. Denegothia
                    is a Christian martyr from the 4th century which was celebrated at
                    Tomis. His name seems to originate in Dinogetia's name. In the group
                    of Martyrs among whom he is mentioned is also a certain Gottia.



                    > Could it happen that we face here another example of what I heard is
                    > called "automatic conversion" (Uriel Weinreich's term), similar to
                    > what is supposed to be the case with the name of the city of
                    > Nouiodunum (prob., = today's Isakca, the right bank of the Danube),
                    > mentioned by Jordanes in Get. 35 as [a ciuitate] nouietunense.
                    > Nouiodunum, being a very widespread name, Celtic in origin (Gaulish
                    > *Novio-du:non "new town" > French Nevers (dep. Nievre), Nouan-le-
                    > Fuzelier (dep. Loir-et-Cher), and there were many more), so this
                    > another Celtic *Novio-dunon could be recognized by the Goths as
                    > consisting of the words which were Gothic niuja- "new" and *tu:n N. -
                    > a "fence" or "fenced place", the latter being a Celtic loanword into
                    > Common Germanic (*du:non > *tu:nan with a consonant shift d > t).
                    > The original form in (pre-?)Jordanes could be *ciuitas neuiotunense
                    > (cf. Neuiodunum in Upper Pannonia), later "hypercorrected", which
                    > could have sprung from probable Gothic *Niujatun (< Ne/ouiodunum) as
                    > the actual name of the city in the Gothic language (kept in a
                    > legend, maybe).
                    >
                    > Now, the Goths of Athanareiks come to Transdanuvia (soon to become
                    > Gutthiuda of the Calender) and meet Cauco(c)ensii. This Dacian (?)
                    > name might contain the same IE root *kouko- "high", "mountain" as
                    > does Go. hauhs (has the ethnonym's etymology been clarified by
                    > specialists in some way?). It could mean "mountaineers" maybe. And
                    > the Goths feel it (or are said about it) and call them *Hauha-
                    > warjos "those living in high places", for example, and the country
                    > they call Hauhaland, the names being both phonetic and semantic
                    > imitations of the native name. Maybe there had been a stage of Go.
                    > *Kaukaland? What do you think?
                  • dciurchea
                    Hello ! Location of Caucoensi in Moldavia fits 1- with maps reconstructed in the 19-th century (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg)
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 27, 2006
                      Hello !
                      Location of Caucoensi in Moldavia fits
                      1- with maps reconstructed in the 19-th century
                      (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg)
                      2- as toponimics we find today: Kogalniceni, near Onesti
                      3- The Kogaion (Kogaionon) - the sacred mountain of the Gets/Dacians
                      may be assumed as Ceahlau (near Onesti)

                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hailai jut Fragkisk jah Andraiu!!
                      >
                      > Could it happen that we face here another example of what I heard
                      is
                      > called "automatic conversion" (Uriel Weinreich's term), similar to
                      > what is supposed to be the case with the name of the city of
                      > Nouiodunum (prob., = today's Isakca, the right bank of the
                      Danube),
                      > mentioned by Jordanes in Get. 35 as [a ciuitate] nouietunense.
                      > Nouiodunum, being a very widespread name, Celtic in origin
                      (Gaulish
                      > *Novio-du:non "new town" > French Nevers (dep. Nievre), Nouan-le-
                      > Fuzelier (dep. Loir-et-Cher), and there were many more), so this
                      > another Celtic *Novio-dunon could be recognized by the Goths as
                      > consisting of the words which were Gothic niuja- "new" and *tu:n
                      N. -
                      > a "fence" or "fenced place", the latter being a Celtic loanword
                      into
                      > Common Germanic (*du:non > *tu:nan with a consonant shift d > t).
                      > The original form in (pre-?)Jordanes could be *ciuitas
                      neuiotunense
                      > (cf. Neuiodunum in Upper Pannonia), later "hypercorrected", which
                      > could have sprung from probable Gothic *Niujatun (< Ne/ouiodunum)
                      as
                      > the actual name of the city in the Gothic language (kept in a
                      > legend, maybe).
                      >
                      > Now, the Goths of Athanareiks come to Transdanuvia (soon to become
                      > Gutthiuda of the Calender) and meet Cauco(c)ensii. This Dacian (?)
                      > name might contain the same IE root *kouko- "high", "mountain" as
                      > does Go. hauhs (has the ethnonym's etymology been clarified by
                      > specialists in some way?). It could mean "mountaineers" maybe. And
                      > the Goths feel it (or are said about it) and call them *Hauha-
                      > warjos "those living in high places", for example, and the country
                      > they call Hauhaland, the names being both phonetic and semantic
                      > imitations of the native name. Maybe there had been a stage of Go.
                      > *Kaukaland? What do you think?
                      >
                      > Ualarauans
                      >
                      > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Caucaland was not in the plain at Pietroasa, but in the Montes
                      > > Serorum: there took place the battle with the Huns. At Pietroasa
                      > > probably the Visigoths hid their treasure before hastily
                      > retreating
                      > > to Caucaland.
                      > >
                      > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Andrei Stirbu <andrei_stirbu@>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > The placement of Caucocensii on contemporary historical maps
                      is
                      > > aproximative. I see no reason for Goths to name the region
                      > highland
                      > > as long the region of Pietroasa is at the limit of the plain and
                      > > small hills, rather in the plain:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=p.a6e.jpg
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?
                      > img=Buzau_map.700.jpg
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > So, in my opinion, is very plausible that Goths used the
                      Dacian
                      > > name of the Cauca region.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Andrei
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • dciurchea
                      Hello ualarauans, I hope I can be of some help. The holly mountain of the gets (dacians) was Kogaion; it fits the location of Cogeanus river (Caucoensi tribe)
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 28, 2006
                        Hello ualarauans,
                        I hope I can be of some help. The holly mountain of the gets
                        (dacians) was Kogaion; it fits the location of Cogeanus river
                        (Caucoensi tribe) and today toponimics and names: Kogalniceni,
                        Kogalniceanu. Today's name of the peak would be Ceahlau.
                        (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg)


                        --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hailai jut Fragkisk jah Andraiu!!
                        >
                        > Could it happen that we face here another example of what I heard
                        is
                        > called "automatic conversion" (Uriel Weinreich's term), similar to
                        > what is supposed to be the case with the name of the city of
                        > Nouiodunum (prob., = today's Isakca, the right bank of the
                        Danube),
                        > mentioned by Jordanes in Get. 35 as [a ciuitate] nouietunense.
                        > Nouiodunum, being a very widespread name, Celtic in origin
                        (Gaulish
                        > *Novio-du:non "new town" > French Nevers (dep. Nievre), Nouan-le-
                        > Fuzelier (dep. Loir-et-Cher), and there were many more), so this
                        > another Celtic *Novio-dunon could be recognized by the Goths as
                        > consisting of the words which were Gothic niuja- "new" and *tu:n
                        N. -
                        > a "fence" or "fenced place", the latter being a Celtic loanword
                        into
                        > Common Germanic (*du:non > *tu:nan with a consonant shift d > t).
                        > The original form in (pre-?)Jordanes could be *ciuitas
                        neuiotunense
                        > (cf. Neuiodunum in Upper Pannonia), later "hypercorrected", which
                        > could have sprung from probable Gothic *Niujatun (< Ne/ouiodunum)
                        as
                        > the actual name of the city in the Gothic language (kept in a
                        > legend, maybe).
                        >
                        > Now, the Goths of Athanareiks come to Transdanuvia (soon to become
                        > Gutthiuda of the Calender) and meet Cauco(c)ensii. This Dacian (?)
                        > name might contain the same IE root *kouko- "high", "mountain" as
                        > does Go. hauhs (has the ethnonym's etymology been clarified by
                        > specialists in some way?). It could mean "mountaineers" maybe. And
                        > the Goths feel it (or are said about it) and call them *Hauha-
                        > warjos "those living in high places", for example, and the country
                        > they call Hauhaland, the names being both phonetic and semantic
                        > imitations of the native name. Maybe there had been a stage of Go.
                        > *Kaukaland? What do you think?
                        >
                        > Ualarauans
                        >
                        > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "Francisc Czobor" <fericzobor@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Caucaland was not in the plain at Pietroasa, but in the Montes
                        > > Serorum: there took place the battle with the Huns. At Pietroasa
                        > > probably the Visigoths hid their treasure before hastily
                        > retreating
                        > > to Caucaland.
                        > >
                        > > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, Andrei Stirbu <andrei_stirbu@>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The placement of Caucocensii on contemporary historical maps
                        is
                        > > aproximative. I see no reason for Goths to name the region
                        > highland
                        > > as long the region of Pietroasa is at the limit of the plain and
                        > > small hills, rather in the plain:
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?img=p.a6e.jpg
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > http://server6.theimagehosting.com/image.php?
                        > img=Buzau_map.700.jpg
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > So, in my opinion, is very plausible that Goths used the
                        Dacian
                        > > name of the Cauca region.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Andrei
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • ualarauans
                        Hails! ... Thanks for your tips! I ve got my particular interest in all that concerns possible interactions, especially the linguistic interaction, between the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 29, 2006
                          Hails!

                          --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "dciurchea" <dciurchea@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hello ualarauans,
                          > I hope I can be of some help. The holly mountain of the gets
                          > (dacians) was Kogaion; it fits the location of Cogeanus river
                          > (Caucoensi tribe) and today toponimics and names: Kogalniceni,
                          > Kogalniceanu. Today's name of the peak would be Ceahlau.
                          > (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg)

                          Thanks for your tips! I've got my particular interest in all that
                          concerns possible interactions, especially the linguistic
                          interaction, between the Goths and the peoples of countries they
                          were walking through on their migrations. I'm of no value as an
                          expert in DNA-related subjects, these HLA-DRB1*1502, DQA1*0102,
                          DQB1*0601 etc etc look pretty Martian for me :), but I read our old
                          good Procopius and others who used to describe the Goths as typical
                          North Europeans (tall men with blond hair and fair skin). I doubt
                          much this phenotype knew no exceptions, but I doubt still more
                          Procopius & Co told deliberate lies risking their repute as
                          historians and distorting (what for?) the appearance of the Goths
                          whom a lot of contemporary Romans had all chances to see with their
                          own eyes. There certainly could be a formalized pattern of
                          depicting "the barbarians of the North", since Caesar and Tacitus
                          maybe, which the 4th-6th ct. historians were following, but to say
                          that even those of the tribal core had absolutely nothing "genetic"
                          in common with each other seems to me as big an exaggeration as to
                          say all the Goths were "pure Nordic race group" or whatever
                          Geschichtsforscher of the 1930s-40s did call it... But sorry for
                          having digressed so far.

                          We probably stand on a safer ground when the language is concerned.
                          As I said I'm particularly interested in Gothic folk-etymology, as
                          far as we may reconstruct that. We perhaps agree that the Visigoths
                          (and their "slow brothers" Gepides) entering Dacia and living there
                          for about a century or more could not escape contacts with the
                          native (post-?)Dacian population and its religious beliefs. So, when
                          hearing the word Kogaion, which (a wild guess) could be related to
                          Cauco-(c)ensii and < IE *kouko- > PG. *xauxa- > Go. hauh-s, couldn't
                          they produce smth like *Hauhaio F. -on (formally after attested
                          armaio), to give it some sense in their speech? And the Alans, their
                          loyal allies (remember the cavalry of Safrac at Adrianople), keeping
                          till nowadays (in Ossetic) the word `xox', i.e. [kho:kh],
                          for "mountain"...

                          Ualarauans
                        • David Kiltz
                          ... Hi Ualarauns, you seem to suggest here, that Ossetic _xox_ be a loan from Germanic, or Gothic more specifically. It seems, however, dangerous to pick out
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 29, 2006
                            On 29.07.2006, at 12:50, ualarauans wrote:

                            > < IE *kouko- > PG. *xauxa- > Go. hauh-s, [...] the Alans, their
                            > [the Goths]
                            > loyal allies [...], keeping
                            > till nowadays (in Ossetic) the word `xox', i.e. [kho:kh],
                            > for "mountain"...

                            Hi Ualarauns,

                            you seem to suggest here, that Ossetic _xox_ be a loan from Germanic,
                            or Gothic more specifically.
                            It seems, however, dangerous to pick out this word from Ossetic and
                            disregard its immediate relatives, the other Iranian languages. There
                            we find, inter alia, OldPersian _kaufa-_ 'mountain'
                            Avestan _kaofa_ 'ridge, bump', MiddlePersian _kôf_ NPersian _kôh_.
                            Cf. also Khotan-Sakian _kuvaa-_ (< *kaufaka-) 'mountain, hill, heap'.
                            While I'm no expert in Ossetian, I'd rather connect the Ossetian word
                            with its Iranian neighbours. We find related forms in other IE
                            languages, too. Also with -p (Lith. _kaupas_ 'heap') and with *-b
                            (Engl. _heap_, German _Haufe(n)). Interestingly, there are also
                            tribal names connected with the term, cf. OldPersian _Âkaufačiya_.
                            MPers. _Kôfêč_. While (possibly) people from heights and 'mountain-
                            dwellers' are rather similar, the roots aren't identical, I think.

                            -Daweid
                          • David Kiltz
                            ... Ualarauans, rather. Sorry.
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 29, 2006
                              On 29.07.2006, at 18:46, David Kiltz wrote:

                              > Hi Ualarauns

                              Ualarauans, rather. Sorry.
                            • ualarauans
                              Hails, Daweid! ... Germanic, ... There ... _kôh_. ... heap . ... word ... _Âkaufačiya_. ... and mountain- ... Yes, sorry for having uttered my suggestion
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 29, 2006
                                Hails, Daweid!

                                --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > On 29.07.2006, at 12:50, ualarauans wrote:
                                >
                                > > < IE *kouko- > PG. *xauxa- > Go. hauh-s, [...] the Alans, their
                                > > [the Goths]
                                > > loyal allies [...], keeping
                                > > till nowadays (in Ossetic) the word `xox', i.e. [kho:kh],
                                > > for "mountain"...
                                >
                                > Hi Ualarauns,
                                >
                                > you seem to suggest here, that Ossetic _xox_ be a loan from
                                Germanic,
                                > or Gothic more specifically.
                                > It seems, however, dangerous to pick out this word from Ossetic and
                                > disregard its immediate relatives, the other Iranian languages.
                                There
                                > we find, inter alia, OldPersian _kaufa-_ 'mountain'
                                > Avestan _kaofa_ 'ridge, bump', MiddlePersian _kôf_ NPersian
                                _kôh_.
                                > Cf. also Khotan-Sakian _kuvaa-_ (< *kaufaka-) 'mountain, hill,
                                heap'.
                                > While I'm no expert in Ossetian, I'd rather connect the Ossetian
                                word
                                > with its Iranian neighbours. We find related forms in other IE
                                > languages, too. Also with -p (Lith. _kaupas_ 'heap') and with *-b
                                > (Engl. _heap_, German _Haufe(n)). Interestingly, there are also
                                > tribal names connected with the term, cf. OldPersian
                                _Âkaufačiya_.
                                > MPers. _Kôfêč_. While (possibly) people from heights
                                and 'mountain-
                                > dwellers' are rather similar, the roots aren't identical, I think.

                                Yes, sorry for having uttered my suggestion so inarticulately. I see
                                it was this Anlaut kh- which misled me to a conclusion that the word
                                could have experienced the Germanic consonant shift. Thank you very
                                much for your correction. I'm no expert in Ossetian too
                                (but wait -:)), and the dictionary I found offers no etymologies,
                                but I confess that the first thing I did was looking through it in
                                search for probable Gothic loanwords. I did find some interesting
                                words, e.g. _arm_ "arm", "hand" (cf. Go. arms), but these may happen
                                to be parallel IE forms, or just coincidental homophones, as it is
                                probably the case of Oss. _zaeghyn_ (-gh- is spirant, like Low
                                German g; -y- smth like schwa) "to say", past tense _zaghta_ - to
                                compare with Dutch _zeggen_, past tense _zegde_. I felt the
                                creeps... But, recalling that there was no voiced [z] in Anlaut of
                                this word in Gothic (*sagjan or *sagon), there was no i-Umlaut etc
                                etc, but there IS probably a secure Iranian etymology instead,
                                my "discovery" was terribly frustrated. I'll be more careful in the
                                future :)

                                Ualarauans
                              • dciurchea
                                Hi everybody, In today Romanian, Kogaion is not used anymore, but Ceahlau; moreover the name of the mountains, the Carpatians are approaching the IE
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 29, 2006
                                  Hi everybody,
                                  In today Romanian, Kogaion is not used anymore, but Ceahlau;
                                  moreover the name of the mountains, the Carpatians are approaching
                                  the IE root-"_kaufa" (those mountains go through the German
                                  territory - Austria and Germany whatsoever); perhaps there is a
                                  connection however through the IE substrate.


                                  --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hails, Daweid!
                                  >
                                  > --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, David Kiltz <derdron@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > On 29.07.2006, at 12:50, ualarauans wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > < IE *kouko- > PG. *xauxa- > Go. hauh-s, [...] the Alans, their
                                  > > > [the Goths]
                                  > > > loyal allies [...], keeping
                                  > > > till nowadays (in Ossetic) the word `xox', i.e. [kho:kh],
                                  > > > for "mountain"...
                                  > >
                                  > > Hi Ualarauns,
                                  > >
                                  > > you seem to suggest here, that Ossetic _xox_ be a loan from
                                  > Germanic,
                                  > > or Gothic more specifically.
                                  > > It seems, however, dangerous to pick out this word from Ossetic
                                  and
                                  > > disregard its immediate relatives, the other Iranian languages.
                                  > There
                                  > > we find, inter alia, OldPersian _kaufa-_ 'mountain'
                                  > > Avestan _kaofa_ 'ridge, bump', MiddlePersian _kôf_ NPersian
                                  > _kôh_.
                                  > > Cf. also Khotan-Sakian _kuvaa-_ (< *kaufaka-) 'mountain, hill,
                                  > heap'.
                                  > > While I'm no expert in Ossetian, I'd rather connect the Ossetian
                                  > word
                                  > > with its Iranian neighbours. We find related forms in other IE
                                  > > languages, too. Also with -p (Lith. _kaupas_ 'heap') and with *-b
                                  > > (Engl. _heap_, German _Haufe(n)). Interestingly, there are also
                                  > > tribal names connected with the term, cf. OldPersian
                                  > _Âkaufačiya_.
                                  > > MPers. _Kôfêč_. While (possibly) people from heights
                                  > and 'mountain-
                                  > > dwellers' are rather similar, the roots aren't identical, I
                                  think.
                                  >
                                  > Yes, sorry for having uttered my suggestion so inarticulately. I
                                  see
                                  > it was this Anlaut kh- which misled me to a conclusion that the
                                  word
                                  > could have experienced the Germanic consonant shift. Thank you
                                  very
                                  > much for your correction. I'm no expert in Ossetian too
                                  > (but wait -:)), and the dictionary I found offers no etymologies,
                                  > but I confess that the first thing I did was looking through it in
                                  > search for probable Gothic loanwords. I did find some interesting
                                  > words, e.g. _arm_ "arm", "hand" (cf. Go. arms), but these may
                                  happen
                                  > to be parallel IE forms, or just coincidental homophones, as it is
                                  > probably the case of Oss. _zaeghyn_ (-gh- is spirant, like Low
                                  > German g; -y- smth like schwa) "to say", past tense _zaghta_ - to
                                  > compare with Dutch _zeggen_, past tense _zegde_. I felt the
                                  > creeps... But, recalling that there was no voiced [z] in Anlaut of
                                  > this word in Gothic (*sagjan or *sagon), there was no i-Umlaut etc
                                  > etc, but there IS probably a secure Iranian etymology instead,
                                  > my "discovery" was terribly frustrated. I'll be more careful in
                                  the
                                  > future :)
                                  >
                                  > Ualarauans
                                  >
                                • andrei_stirbu
                                  ... Kokalnic is also an important river in Wallachian Plain. It s an old Romanian word designing a sort of hill or litle river (sorry for that I m not
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 29, 2006
                                    > Location of Caucoensi in Moldavia fits
                                    > 1- with maps reconstructed in the 19-th century
                                    > (http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/macedonia_1849.jpg)
                                    > 2- as toponimics we find today: Kogalniceni, near Onesti
                                    > 3- The Kogaion (Kogaionon) - the sacred mountain of the Gets/Dacians
                                    > may be assumed as Ceahlau (near Onesti)


                                    Kokalnic is also an important river in Wallachian Plain. It's an old
                                    Romanian word designing a sort of hill or litle river (sorry for that
                                    I'm not remembering) and is of Slav etimology.

                                    The name of Ceahlau surely doesnt come from Kogaion or Cauca,
                                    according to the rules of linguistic evolutions.


                                    .............................................


                                    > but I read our old good Procopius and others who used to describe
                                    > the Goths as typical North Europeans (tall men with blond hair and
                                    > fair skin). I doubt much this phenotype knew no exceptions, but I
                                    > doubt still more Procopius & Co told deliberate lies risking their
                                    > repute as historians and distorting (what for?) the appearance of
                                    > the Goths whom a lot of contemporary Romans had all chances to see
                                    > with their own eyes.


                                    Seeing photos of Cernyakhov burials, I think that the skeletons
                                    belonged to blond hair individs, as long as dark hair individs I think
                                    have a more fragile skeleton.
                                    http://cimec.ro/Arheologie/cronicaCA2004/planse/147/index.html



                                    > We perhaps agree that the Visigoths
                                    > (and their "slow brothers" Gepides) entering Dacia and living there
                                    > for about a century or more could not escape contacts with the
                                    > native (post-?)Dacian population and its religious beliefs. So, when
                                    > hearing the word Kogaion, which (a wild guess) could be related to
                                    > Cauco-(c)ensii and < IE *kouko- > PG. *xauxa- > Go. hauh-s, couldn't
                                    > they produce smth like *Hauhaio F. -on (formally after attested
                                    > armaio), to give it some sense in their speech?

                                    I think that Kogaion was not a real toponym in the late Antiquity,
                                    ratherly a legendary reminescent which was met by Strabon in an elder
                                    source. Even if it was a toponym at the moment of Roman conquest, it
                                    surely was abandoned as a sacred place, either it was placed in the
                                    newly Roman province or outside it.
                                    Anyway, a sacred mountain would not be located in the Buzau mountains,
                                    as long as these mountains are a great exception in Romanian
                                    geomorphology, being constituted of sandstone and very aride.
                                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kogaion
                                    http://olimpiada.info/oni2004/infobuzau/imgs/Mal%20de%20Buzau.jpg


                                    Andrei
                                  • Francisc Czobor
                                    The Ossetic word xox mountain is not related rather to the Persian koh or kuh mountain ? Both Ossetic and Persian are Iranic languages. Francisc ... when
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Aug 2, 2006
                                      The Ossetic word xox "mountain" is not related rather to the Persian
                                      koh or kuh "mountain"? Both Ossetic and Persian are Iranic languages.

                                      Francisc

                                      --- In gothic-l@yahoogroups.com, "ualarauans" <ualarauans@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > ...
                                      >
                                      > We probably stand on a safer ground when the language is concerned.
                                      > As I said I'm particularly interested in Gothic folk-etymology, as
                                      > far as we may reconstruct that. We perhaps agree that the Visigoths
                                      > (and their "slow brothers" Gepides) entering Dacia and living there
                                      > for about a century or more could not escape contacts with the
                                      > native (post-?)Dacian population and its religious beliefs. So,
                                      when
                                      > hearing the word Kogaion, which (a wild guess) could be related to
                                      > Cauco-(c)ensii and < IE *kouko- > PG. *xauxa- > Go. hauh-s,
                                      couldn't
                                      > they produce smth like *Hauhaio F. -on (formally after attested
                                      > armaio), to give it some sense in their speech? And the Alans,
                                      their
                                      > loyal allies (remember the cavalry of Safrac at Adrianople),
                                      keeping
                                      > till nowadays (in Ossetic) the word `xox', i.e. [kho:kh],
                                      > for "mountain"...
                                      >
                                      > Ualarauans
                                      >
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